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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
This Invading China is... weird... Mongolian Khans or Jurchen Khans did not invade to make their relatives emperor. They invaded to make themselves emperor of China...

Yuan_Dynasty_1294.png

That's 20 years AFTER the COnquest... In reality it as Möngke Khan who send Kublai Khan to China where he conquered Northern China and the rest of China later. Mongolia and Tibet were conquered AFTER that.
 
Yay, I get a bunch of mechanics that are absolutely not dependent on other characters! BTW, can you name me a single king during the timeframe of the game who joined a society?

Meanwhile there was an actual society of great historical importance called the Knight Templar whose maritime activities and moneylending were very important and neither of which are represented in game...



FTFY
The point is:
Characters were the focus of the last few expansions.
They were not thrown into irrelevancy, like you said.

Whether you like the way those expansions were executed....that's a different matter, and it comes down a lot to personal opinion.
 
The problem with CK2 is that Paradox essentially abandoned Europe when they went out of their way to add places irrelevant to crusades like India. For a game that's ostensibly about the crusades and named Crusader Kings crusades and Europe are probably among the least developed areas in the game.

For the 1000th time, this game was never about Crusades or just about Europe, it was about character relationship and interaction, the Crusades were just a consequence of these interactions.
 
What original features?
What is incomplete?

Just curious.

Well at the risk of repeating myself...
Shifting loyalties during war (e.g. HYW)
Wars having resolutions beyond map painting (e.g. HYW)
Kings needing vassal support to accomplish anything
The prohibitive cost of long campaigns
Religious minorities mattering (just look at the way Andalusia kept losing it's frontier)
Distant parts of realm splitting off (Jeruselum is one, but other examples include the Norman and Muslim invasions of southern Italy, the viking realms in Britain and France, Venice and Amalfi (from the ERE), the splintering of the HRE and France, the Barcelonian defection to Charlemange...
 
That's 20 years AFTER the COnquest... In reality it as Möngke Khan who send Kublai Khan to China where he conquered Northern China and the rest of China later. Mongolia and Tibet were conquered AFTER that.

It is true that the ruler of Mongolia ruled as the emperor of China. In the 14-century inscriptions, there are sayings "Greater Mongol Ulus called Greater Yuan"
 
Well at the risk of repeating myself...
Shifting loyalties during war (e.g. HYW)
Admittedly not implemented.
Wars having resolutions beyond map painting (e.g. HYW)
Too vague.
Kings needing vassal support to accomplish anything
Dude...
The prohibitive cost of long campaigns
Kinda implemented in the form of bankruptcy and newly in depopulation if you've got Reaper's Due. Could be expanded, I guess, but it's not missing altogether.
Religious minorities mattering (just look at the way Andalusia kept losing it's frontier)
Religious revolts. Secret religious societies.
Distant parts of realm splitting off (Jeruselum is one, but other examples include the Norman and Muslim invasions of southern Italy, the viking realms in Britain and France, Venice and Amalfi (from the ERE), the splintering of the HRE and France, the Barcelonian defection to Charlemange...
Gavelkind, but yeah, insufficient.

So, of your list of things you would personally want to see in CKII, 2 have been implemented, 2 kinda and 1 not.
Now, unless you either get a doctorate in medievalogy and write a peer-endorsed paper proclaiming these six things the epitome of 769-1452 Eurafrasian history; or buy Paradox LTC, then you will have to live with other people's own interests and desires conflicting from your own.
 
Sounds pretty great. Its time for the Chinese Emperor to hear about those damn Saxons! :D
 
In reality it as Möngke Khan who send Kublai Khan to China where he conquered Northern China and the rest of China later.
Actually, it's Ögedei who conquered northern China, and Möngke was personally leading troops in southern China (alongside Kublai who was leading another army) when he died. Though I don't mean how the game treats it is bad.
 
Religious revolts. Secret religious societies.

Neither of which actually depicts what was historically significant. You can not have a situation with the Cathars leads to a religious conflict within France or the way the Spanish kings made their reconquest by inviting the population north or the way the KoJ was dependent on foreign knights. Instead it's just EZ piety points.
 
Apologies if it's already been answered, but does this mean we'll be able to import say, a Norse China into EU4 and actually have the map be different in East Asia?
 
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Dude, try something for me. Revert your game back to the release version and load up as some king in historical circumstances. Muck around with your vassals until all of them have an opinion of you around 0. See how many troops you can raise. Now load up the game in the latest release and do the same situation. Look at how many troops you can raise.
 
Neither of which actually depicts what was historically significant. You can not have a situation with the Cathars leads to a religious conflict within France or the way the Spanish kings made their reconquest by inviting the population north or the way the KoJ was dependent on foreign knights. Instead it's just EZ piety points.
That the matters got abstracted beyond your personal wishes does not mean they are not represented at all.
Dude, try something for me. Revert your game back to the release version and load up as some king in historical circumstances. Muck around with your vassals until all of them have an opinion of you around 0. See how many troops you can raise. Now load up the game in the latest release and do the same situation. Look at how many troops you can raise.
Again, one detail of the current situation you don't like. In this case, levies. And you utterly ignore the tonnes of work that has been put into things not in your personal niche understanding of it. The fact that there is something slightly off about it to you, does not mean Conclave DLC does not exist.
 
I have no problem with a game depicting all of Eurasia. I just am ticked off at the pretty obvious mission creep while the original features were never completed. People like this game, it's just no longer the game they first set out to build.

According to... who, exactly? Cuz unless you're secretly one of the P'dox bigwigs in disguise choosing a really weird avenue to vent your disgruntlement you're just another end user upset that they're not focusing on what you'd prefer they focus on. Trying to justify what at the end of the day is simply that you're not getting what you'd prefer to get (which, incidentally, is an entirely fine thing to express, it gets annoying when people try to merge some sort of objective issue with their preference so it can presumably muscle other people's preference out of the way or something) by implying that the devs have somehow lost their way as defined by you, random internet stranger or that they've moved on to a different crowd with the implication that the new crowd is somehow lesser or unwilling to support their 'genuine vision' or w/e your next patina of pretend objectivity is gonna be you could save yourself some time and just say: I would prefer if the devs focused on [area of preference] rather than China though I recgonize that lots of people have wanted China in some capacity.
 
Anyone else remember when the focus of CKII was a game about the feudal realms of Europe?
-The creation of a kingdom of Jerusalem, i.e. the CRUSADER KINGS :p

But there are going to be mechanics for the invasion of china...

Oh please!

-The shifting loyalties of counts and dukes during the hundred years war and similar conflicts

Loyalties shift insanely throughout the game. Are you telling me you've never dealt with unruly vassals with differing personalities?

-The sack of Constantinople during the 4th crusade

For crying out loud, PLAY THE FOURTH CRUSADE BOOKMARK. You can even form the Latin Empire yourself!!

-The difficulties of a weak king to control vassals (has just gotten easier and easier...)

What game are you playing? Turn off Conclave and your powerful vassals can form factions at-will. Seriously, it's like you have never played the game.

-The difficulty of keeping armies of levies in the field (has just gotten easier and easier...)

It's gotten easier and easier for the AI. We still get screwed over by attrition.

-Religious conflicts within realms (e.g. Cathars, Mozarabs, Leventines)

MY GOSH, you're telling me that religious conflict is not simulated?! Have you ever played the game? You can CRUSADE against the Cathars, you fight off stacks against them, and on and on and so forth. You can become Cathar yourself and more.

This is ridiculous. I don't know where you invented all of this.
 
> Announcement that you can invade China and turn it to your religion and dynasty

81a83bb1c2fbee906e254d67bd43dcc8f5bfdc23.png
 
The problem with CK2 is that Paradox essentially abandoned Europe when they went out of their way to add places irrelevant to crusades like India. For a game that's ostensibly about the crusades and named Crusader Kings crusades and Europe are probably among the least developed areas in the game.

Europe has always been immensely fleshed out. The Catholics have some of the bigges features. The Orthodox can beat the Pope into submission. The Byzantine Empire has its own EP. The Crusades against the Muslims are critical game-changing events. There are dozens of On-Action Events that fire for rulers. The Normans have their own bookmarks. The Fourth Crusade has its own bookmark. The Karlings rule Europe in the early starts. Charlemagne has his own bookmark. Don't forget all the Vikings and their immense development.

It's like you've never played the game. They never abandoned Europe: Europe has always been at the forefront because it was the master of the Old World outside of Asia. Europe is the most developed area, as it should be.