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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
K. Before everyone stabs each other on this forum, can we just get it out of the way that Monks and Mystics was bad? I know that I mention that a lot, but the truth is that the expansion was terrible and is still unfinished, making it one of the worst expansions to this day.

While I agree that they wasted their time with the Satanic crap (although I oppose that for religious reasons and do not play it if I play as a Christian), I don't think MM was a bad EP. I just wish they had focused more on the non-Satan stuff. We could have seen at least three or four more Societies if they hadn't dedicated their time to the largest fantasy expansion since "Sunset Invasion" (which, while not my cup of tea for religious reasons * cough human sacrifice cough *, is not a bad EP either).

I personally think the Off-Map Interaction mechanics would be PERFECT for SI.
 
K. Before everyone stabs each other on this forum, can we just get it out of the way that Monks and Mystics was bad ? I know that I mention that a lot, but the truth is that the expansion was terrible and is still unfinished, making it one of the worst expansions (IN MY OPINION) to this day.

@keynes2.0 Do you understand how good this Jade Dragon DLC will be for Eastern Characters? There is currently 0 reason to play as a nomad in the Steppes as of now, simply because they have nothing to offer. At least with the expansions, these characters will have some life brought into them..
You asked: can we get it out of the way that Monks and Mystics was bad?
My "(PERSONAL)" answer: we cannot get that out of the way, because I disagree. And Steam says 65% of the response is positive, which makes it one of their lesser DLC's (still above Republics, Raja's, Conclave, Sunset) but not the worst.
And really, Steam ratings is your best shot at establishing any sort of truth or consensus. As @LeSingeAffame aptly put, you cannot state your opinion as a fact and then put "but that's what I think" after it. Opinions and facts do not mix.

*cough* Gnostics *cough*
There we have it, the elusive My-pet-feature-did-not-make-it-in-therefore-everything-about-it-is-terrible Syndrome.
 
*cough* Gnostics *cough*
You did not answer my question, and tried to point to a missing feature instead of that, which is kinda irrelevant. You wanted them and did not get them ? That's indeed too bad for you, but does that make the whole expansion bad ?
 
There we have it, the elusive My-pet-feature-did-not-make-it-in-therefore-everything-about-it-is-terrible Syndrome.

You must be great at parties :D

I was referring to it being unfinished. Gnostics are low on my priority list in terms of what is missing, it's just the one that Paradox mentioned yet removed for some odd reason
 
You must be great at parties :D

I was referring to it being unfinished. Gnostics are low on my priority list in terms of what is missing, it's just the one that Paradox mentioned yet removed for some odd reason
So you complain that an expansion was not finished, and then are upset because they did not include something that would also not have been properly made into the game ?
Ok
 
You must be great at parties :D

I was referring to it being unfinished. Gnostics are low on my priority list in terms of what is missing, it's just the one that Paradox mentioned yet removed for some odd reason
I frankly agree that they went a little too heavy on the fantasy elements here, but hey, can you blame them? They stated they recruited the most content creators ever to make all those events. Christians were already getting the most societies of all, and I think that at one point decided to cut one because they did not have the time. I wish they had cut either Dominicans or Benedictines instead, but that does not make it a terrible expansion.

If the worst thing you can say about the stuff in a DLC, is that there is not enough of it, does that make it one of the worst DLCs ever? I think not.
 
It's not uncommon that something is cut during development because of various reasons...

So the logic is that when your community is excited for what is offered in your DLC and they are interested in the societies that will be included as a main focus of the expansion, you cut off the Gnostics and leave it be? Pretend that every thing else is perfect enough ?
 
Then what's the logic behind putting the Gnostics in the Dev Diary in the first place?
It was on their to-do list, thought they could do it on time and properly, then realised that some other thing of higher priority was taking more time and resources than planned, or that the gnostic feature was too expensive to be properly included. That happens all the time
 
There is currently 0 reason to play as a nomad in the Steppes as of now, simply because they have nothing to offer. At least with the expansions, these characters will have some life brought into them..

Interestingly enough, this is the exact reason that I think expanding the map was bad. It means less effort is being spent on mechanics and that of the effort that is being spent on mechanics it's being spent trying to fix the new stuff rather then ever going back and make the 1.0 stuff complete.
 
If the worst thing you can say about the stuff in a DLC, is that there is not enough of it, does that make it one of the worst DLCs ever? I think not.

If I'm making a city builder game and I sell you a building DLC that offers the same songs offered in another DLC and 1 minor building, for a total of 7,79$, you don't think that the quantity offered is lacklustre at best ?
 
If I'm making a city builder game and I sell you a building DLC that offers the same songs offered in another DLC, for a total of 7,79$, you don't think that the quantity offered is lacklustre at best ?
I don't recall any CKII DLC offering the exact same material as an earlier DLC. Maybe try a different analogue.
 
The problem with CK2 is that Paradox essentially abandoned Europe when they went out of their way to add places irrelevant to crusades like India. For a game that's ostensibly about the crusades and named Crusader Kings crusades and Europe are probably among the least developed areas in the game.

As my elephants disembark upon the beaches of Italy from the mightiest fleet the world has ever known, for the great crusade to install the joint temples of Kali and God-Emperor Jaang on the ruins of Rome, the assembled generals will laugh at the idea that India can't lead crusades. ;);)
 
I don't recall any CKII DLC offering the exact same material as an earlier DLC. Maybe try a different analogue.

Since you had the Blue Bird avatar, I was hoping that you know what game I'm talking about....

Does not matter what game it is. The trend across all games seems to be : 'Many expansions, big hype, small content'
 
Since you had the Blue Bird avatar, I was hoping that you know what game I'm talking about....

Does not matter what game it is. The trend across all games seems to be : 'Many expansions, big hype, small content'
Yeah, it's not one of my favourite games of theirs, I've largely stopped following it.

But my point is that MnM was not lacking in content whatsoever. All those extra content designers they recruited (cannot find the dev dairy where they stated the exact number) weren't just eating Swedish meatballs the whole time. They were doing stuff or they'd lose their jobs. Societies simply contain a large amount of events, and the Hermetics got the most in the end, followed closely by the Satanists.
 
AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles.

Does that mean that the magic attrition-free troops from Mongols etc will disappear? I hope so, because the new AI sounds like a much better challenge!

. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character

I do not disagree - I just want to know HOW THE HELL will Kublai Khan be represented, since he was both Khagan of Mongolia and Emperor of China!
 
But my point is that MnM was not lacking in content whatsoever. All those extra content designers they recruited (cannot find the dev dairy where they stated the exact number) weren't just eating Swedish meatballs the whole time. They were doing stuff or they'd lose their jobs. Societies simply contain a large amount of events, and the Hermetics got the most in the end, followed closely by the Satanists.

Why is it that when an individual thinks of secret societies, he/she can think of a dozen of them from the Medieval Era, yet when Paradox released the DLC they thought of Satanists, 2 Monastic Orders, the Assasins and Hermetics? Was copy-pasting the Satanists and Monastics Orders across the map just easier for them ?
 
I wonder if its possible through some convoluted means and unrestricted supernatural events to put an immortal on the throne of China.

It's probably relatively easy to have a werewolf rule China but I doubt that would have any visible effect.