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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
Why is it that when an individual thinks of secret societies, he/she can think of a dozen of them from the Medieval Era, yet when Paradox released the DLC they thought of Satanists, 2 Monastic Orders, the Assasins and Hermetics? Was copy-pasting the Satanists and Monastics Orders across the map just easier for them ?
And secret religious orders for every religion, and three monastic orders for Indians, and three monastic orders for different Christian faiths beside Dominicans and Benedictines. And yeah. Maybe look at the localisation files that came with the DLC, compare their sizes.
 
And secret religious orders for every religion, and three monastic orders for Indians, and three monastic orders for different Christian faiths beside Dominicans and Benedictines. And yeah. Maybe look at the localisation files that came with the DLC, compare their sizes.

So copy-paste for all monastic orders that weren't catholic? That's a great way of proving that you added variety to the game :rolleyes:

Secret Religious Orders came with the patch. Has nothing to do with the DLC
 
I do not disagree - I just want to know HOW THE HELL will Kublai Khan be represented, since he was both Khagan of Mongolia and Emperor of China!

Mongolia proper isn't on the map.
And it will be easy: Möngke can will start in Invasion and put his relative Kublai Khan on the Chinese throne. Kublai can never controlled the whole Mongol Empire. His power base was allways in China.
 
So copy-paste for all monastic orders that weren't catholic? That's a great way of proving that you added variety to the game :rolleyes:

Secret Religious Orders came with the patch. Has nothing to do with the DLC
But what are you exactly trying to prove here? That Paradox staff is lazy? That they will decide against making more money (happy customers earn them more money), that they decide in favour of making people like you more angry so they can spend more time eating meatballs? How could cutting the Gnostics ever have been their intention? What possible evil motivation could they have had to promise something and then cut it?

Explain that to me please.
 
But what are you exactly trying to prove here? That Paradox staff is lazy? That they will decide against making more money (happy customers earn them more money), that they decide in favour of making people like you more angry so they can spend more time eating meatballs? How could cutting the Gnostics ever have been their intention? What possible evil motivation could they have had to promise something and then cut it?

Explain that to me please.
Personally I love MnM but it was the first CK2 dlc that made me feel dissapointed (well, maybe aside of the lack of additional flavor for regencies in Conclave)
The problem with MnM is that it is very uneven. On one hand we got wonderfully fleshed out christian societies and on another Pagans and Indians have been treated like illegitimate bastards. One society for pagans? You can be either evil or envious...
I remember when we got a buch of DDs and it looked quite like in the middle of work and we kept asking "when" and they told us "like in two weeks". And they gave us then 2.7.0 which had very annoying secret religious cults and were not willing to release a patch for quite a while. It all looked very messy and unloving from Pdx.
Personally I think that it would make more sense if they kept working on it for a month or so, even if the price would be higher. Or if it was not possible it might have been better to make both monks and satanists even more generic and shared between religions and spent the surplus of time to make MnM more balanced in terms of societies' distribution. And IMO, that would be the minimum because we could all hope for unique societies, like Hashishins, for more religions.
 
But what are you exactly trying to prove here? That Paradox staff is lazy? That they will decide against making more money (happy customers earn them more money), that they decide in favour of making people like you more angry so they can spend more time eating meatballs? How could cutting the Gnostics ever have been their intention? What possible evil motivation could they have had to promise something and then cut it?

Explain that to me please.

You stated that Monks and Mystics is not lacking in content whatsoever.

My point is that copy pasting major societies is not a sign of quality; it’s a sign that they were hoping that everything would ignore the lack of quality and buy it.

Do I agree that the concept was interesting? Of course! At least let’s hope you could admit that there are flaws in this DLC
 
Mongolia proper isn't on the map.

Not all of it, but the core is - including the old capital of Karakorum.

Perhaps the Yuan governor of Lingbei (e.g. Mongolia) will be independent but a tributary of the Emperor of China, Kublai Khan?
 
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King and Emperor tier titles you hold are destroyed (except religious titles and clan titles)
I would LOVE to see the "shattered" mechanic apply to the HRE, Byz, and other empires/kingdoms that get defeated soundly in normal games. I don't know a fair way to do it. Maybe if they get a single 90%+ defeat? Maybe two 50%+ defeats within 10 years? Empires should not endure major beat-downs.
 
I would LOVE to see the "shattered" mechanic apply to the HRE, Byz, and other empires/kingdoms that get defeated soundly in normal games. I don't know a fair way to do it. Maybe if they get a single 90%+ defeat? Maybe two 50%+ defeats within 10 years? Empires should not endure major beat-downs.

Wholeheartedly agree. Thankfully, they're already adding an interesting way to do this in JD. Not only will failing to invade China shatter the aggressor, but the new targeted Chinese invasion (bought with Grace) shatters the defending realm if it succeeds.

I still think that the Shatter mechanic for huge empires should see more use. For example, why not have successful Decadence Revolts shatter the old Empire?
 
I'm glad I am alive to see the player invade an off-map Empire. #Paradox2017 hasn't disappointed. I'm patiently waiting for the China map add-on expansion, only £14.99!

Only jesting, but I suppose this is better than nothing, just feel a little bit let down with this expansion, seems to be a continuous theme this year.
 
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Really disappointed. Why would you invade empire of China to make your random relative emperor? This doesn't make any sense! I don't think it ever happened historically.

It happened historically. Kublai Khan says hi.

Kublai became emperor of China after Mongke death whom he succeeded.

[Sorry for the few others who responded too]
Here, I have to back up Paxter, even tho I think the mechanics of putting a relative as emperor of China is good enough to represent how Mongke and Kublai's conquest of China went (but saying that it happened for Kublai is a pretty big shortcut, which I cannot take).

- Mongke gave China to Kublai, as he gave Iran to Hulegu. His brothers ruled these territories under his authority (same for the lands ruled by the Chagataids and Jochids).
- He sent Kublai and Subutai's son south of China, to conquer some bits of South East Asia (e.g. Yunnan) and build a base to attack the Songs from the South. (this is at this period that Tibet was vassalized)
- He attacked from the North/North-West and died in battle.
- Kublai succeeded after the Tuluid civil war. Ariq Boke was Mongke's preferred successor and had support from the Chagataids and the Mongol aristocracy but he lost against Kublai, who was allied with Hulegu. I guess the civil war, as well as the growing rivalry between Hulegu (Ilkhanate) and the Jochids (Golden Horde) sealed the fate of the Empire. Kublai was Khagan of Mongolia and China but had no power over the others parts of the former empire. Maybe he lacked legitimacy, especially since during the civil war, he allied the Jochids' rival (Hulegu) and fought against the Chagataids (the Jochids also took part in the civil war, to fight Hulegu).
- Kublai finished off the campaign (around ten years later) and made himself emperor of China.

Now, in the case where Mongke had not died, he would have finished the campaign with Kublai and would have given him all of China. But Kublai would have been a subject of the Empire. So basically, Mongke did not invade China to put a relative as emperor. He invaded China to add it to his Empire.
This is because Mongke died early, failing to secure his succession, that Kublai became an independent Khagan as the Empire broke appart (same for the Ilkhans, Jochids and Chagataids).

But again, as an abstraction and to avoid introducing a game breaking feature (being the almighty emperor of an off map and on map realm), putting a relative as emperor is fine (and Mongke installing Kublai is sufficient)

Off map. Kublai Khan didn't rule something on the map And he was already made governor over a large part of China after Mongke death. Also: Kublai Khan was never accepted as Great Khan and because of this ruled nothing which was on the map.
As said before, most of Mongolia is on the map (except the most eastern part) and Tibet was under Kublai. But I guess, putting this as Western protectorate is fine.

Mongolia proper isn't on the map.
And it will be easy: Möngke can will start in Invasion and put his relative Kublai Khan on the Chinese throne. Kublai can never controlled the whole Mongol Empire. His power base was allways in China.
Agreed... I don't think Kublai could have ever ruled the Empire without making it break. He would never have been accepted by the Chagataids and Jochids, especially since I think, he would have ruled from China (and his supporters were Chinese and Khitans, not Mongols, except for his alliance with the Ilkhans).
 
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You stated that Monks and Mystics is not lacking in content whatsoever.

My point is that copy pasting major societies is not a sign of quality; it’s a sign that they were hoping that everything would ignore the lack of quality and buy it.

Do I agree that the concept was interesting? Of course! At least let’s hope you could admit that there are flaws in this DLC
You started out calling it the worst DLC ever - not only that, and stating as much as that that was the popular consensus, before going on to question the dev's motives.

Let's agree on this middle road, that we were both a bit disappointed, but I to a lesser degree and you to a greater degree?
 
I'd imagine he'd acknowledge the Pope as the legitimate successor to St. Peter and head of the church, but also rely on the fact that he's so far away that the Pope isn't going to have much to say to him (since any message would take ages to actually get there. Certainly no need for a weird heresy (though probably some syncretism pops up in practice).
Considering the vast and dangerous distance, if the Chinese Emperor receives an envoy from the Pope who tells him something he doesn't like (ie, "If you don't get rid of your harem, you'll be excommunicated"), what's to stop the Emperor from having the envoy killed and pretending like he never made it to the Imperial Court in the first place?
 
It's time to conquere China as a Crusader King! Bring Latin Christianity to the Dragon!



He knows Africa exists. Why shouldn't he be able to like it?

You win the athel accolade that is Most Obtuse Post of 2017.
 
Me: *Calls emperor* Hello, is this the Empire of China?

Emperor: Yes, this is the Empire of China

Me: Fak u

Emperor: Phak Hyu is out at the moment, but I can take a message.
 
Let's agree on this middle road, that we were both a bit disappointed, but I to a lesser degree and you to a greater degree?

Yes

not only that, and stating as much as that that was the popular consensus, before going on to question the dev's motives.

No.

Life is not a beautiful coloured rainbow. Devs can enjoy their jobs, but they need money over everything else.
 
Life is not a beautiful coloured rainbow. Devs can enjoy their jobs, but they need money over everything else.
Exactly - what I am saying is not that they are fluffy unicorn Bernie Sanders idealists - I am merely saying that cutting content was something they had to do in spite of their desire to make money, rather than as a means to make money. Cutting content = wasted time. Wasted time = wasted money. So call them idiots for not focusing on the things you like, but not greedy. If their motivations was purely to make money, they would have made a template society-generating program and released them in fifty mostly-identical DLC's of €2 each.