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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
That sounds both dull and illogical... Medieval warfare was centered around siege warfare; battles occurred to prevent/relief sieges. I don't know why CK2 is so obsessed with battles. Anyhow considering the nature of the game, wouldn't it be more logical to make the whole thing event driven? Like after you start the invasion you would get annual event about the progress which would eventually determine the outcome, events such as:
  • "Capture of major city": +10 IP, -1 IS
  • "Defeat of relief army": +5 IP, -1 IS
  • "Tactical retreat": -5 IS
  • "Military disaster": -10 IS
:

Late medieval warfare was centered around sieges, earlier warfare was generally decided in open battle.

And event driven battle system would be the most boring thing that I can imagine - zero player input and no way to affect the outcome. In any event that's not the way that these things went - the war would generally be fought on the border and if/when the "barbarians" ever got over the wall and into the heartland the campaign was virtually over.


The entire "China invasion" scenario makes no sense. Why would winning a war against a Chinese invasion, which you provoked, make you the emperor of China? If that was the case then Vietnam or Korea would have ruled China centuries ago.

So disappointed that instead of making crusades less stupid they decided to create magical scenario content.

Keep up the neg-rep farming, you're doing fantastic.


With the reason for war DD, I thought this would be an overhaul of core mechanics, but instead it seems to be all about China. Disappointing, really

Who would have thought that a DLC called "Jade Dragon" would be all about China ?
 
Cheers for the DD rageair and the extra info blackninja :D. All looks very cool, and am particularly a fan of the new AI 'large army' behaviour (the old Mongol doomstacks always gave me the irrates, not hugely, but enough that the new behaviour sounds mighty appealing :)). China interactions also tops as well of course :).

Yes it can be, you make your own offmaps and have multiple of them.

This is very cool - huge amounts of potential for modders here :).
 
any chance we can support a rebellion in China rather than outright invading? I don't really want my Indian dynasty taking over China since it seems a little too far-fetched but I really liked the idea of supporting Chinese rebels in a civil war and marrying the new Imperial Family to create an economic powerhouse along the Silk Road.
 
Not really interested in the China mechanics, but is there any other part of this DLC worth having?
7 new CBs (plus one for the patch), Silk Road if you don't already have Horse Lords, and possibly the Monastic Feudal government for Tibetan Buddhist and Bon characters (not sure if that one is patch or DLC). Also, shiny new artifacts and portraits that could be used for things like using the Ruler Designer to play something like an exiled Chinese prince carving out a new empire (or settling down with the local customs), even if you're not planning on actually interacting with China proper.
 
Exactly - what I am saying is not that they are fluffy unicorn Bernie Sanders idealists - I am merely saying that cutting content was something they had to do in spite of their desire to make money, rather than as a means to make money. Cutting content = wasted time. Wasted time = wasted money. So call them idiots for not focusing on the things you like, but not greedy. If their motivations was purely to make money, they would have made a template society-generating program and released them in fifty mostly-identical DLC's of €2 each.

You seem to have taken the word 'idiot' out of thin air; what a great way of initiating dialogue :rolleyes:...

Can you show me a post, that states that Gnostics were cut out due to time restrictions? For all we know, they could have thought that it was too much work and therefore decided to take the easier route.
 
7 new CBs (plus one for the patch), Silk Road if you don't already have Horse Lords, and possibly the Monastic Feudal government for Tibetan Buddhist and Bon characters (not sure if that one is patch or DLC). Also, shiny new artifacts and portraits that could be used for things like using the Ruler Designer to play something like an exiled Chinese prince carving out a new empire (or settling down with the local customs), even if you're not planning on actually interacting with China proper.

Tibet area mechanics are unique to the DLC. Only the map will be 'opened up' in the free patch
 
Exactly - what I am saying is not that they are fluffy unicorn Bernie Sanders idealists - I am merely saying that cutting content was something they had to do in spite of their desire to make money, rather than as a means to make money. Cutting content = wasted time. Wasted time = wasted money. So call them idiots for not focusing on the things you like, but not greedy. If their motivations was purely to make money, they would have made a template society-generating program and released them in fifty mostly-identical DLC's of €2 each.
Well one keep Bernie out of this The man a is one of the few good political forces left in US. Vs Trump who well is international embarrassment.

But I do agree with your point. Honestly though I do wish they fix some deeply mechanical issues the problem with the game now it's kind of like a betting that you are a dog on it and instead of cleaning the shit you just keep on putting more sheets on it and blankets and rugs and the smell stays a And worst get stronger.
 
I may have missed it in the slew of pages, excuse me if I did. But my biggest #1 concern/worry is how the converter will handle this stuff.

If say, I put a Pagan, or Catholic on the throne, and my family still owns the throne when the game is over, and I've converted it into Europa, will the Chinese in EU IV then start as pagan, or catholic?
 
Is there a list of Chinese Empire names along with culture (such as Mongol - Yuan, Jurchen - Jin, etc)?

It seems kind of strange that what looks like a Turk can take over the Chinese Empire and then it's called the Han empire. Shouldn't it be called something else rather than named after the empires of the Han culture?

I really hope this get's added, as well as non-Han portraits. I thought I had seen something about the portrait pack having the most portraits compared to prior packs but I'm having issues finding it now.
 
If say, I put a Catholic on the throne, and my family still owns the throne when the game is over, and I've converted it into Europa, will the Chinese in EU IV then start as catholic?

Either Confucian with Catholic set to Harmonization, or Catholic proper. It had better be Catholic proper, or it defeats the purpose.
 
Either Confucian with Catholic set to Harmonization, or Catholic proper. It had better be Catholic proper, or it defeats the purpose.
I could understand Confucian with Catholic Harmonization, considering converting the entirety of China to the true faith is going to be quite an ordeal. Running the Empire is going to take precedent over piety unless the Emperor were a zealot. Most of the bureaucrats aren't going to be Catholic, and certainly not the army, and the last thing you want to do when ruling a country is piss off the army. The Catholic Emperor on the other hand is going to be educated in Chinese traditions and values in order to best understand how to rule China, so even the most European, white, and Catholic Emperor of China is going to basically be practicing a sinocized version of Catholic. God is still the one true God, the Pope is still the head of the Church, and he is slowly going to try and spread the good news through China, but he is going to be pragmatic enough to the point where he is effectively Confucian.

Also, the Empire of China requires being ruled by an Eastern religious group in EU4. I'm pretty sure the Emperor can convert in-game after already being Emperor (i.e Japan gets the throne, and Christianizes during the Krishitan event chain), but starting out Catholic through a save converter might break the Empire of China.
 
Maybe I'm missing something but I think it's a little odd that we can't invade China while it's unstable.

I understand the game mechanic aspect of creating a challenge for the player but I feel like the smart, realistic and historical option would be to hit the big power while it's weak not wait honorably till they're ready to give you a proper challenge.
 
Maybe I'm missing something but I think it's a little odd that we can't invade China while it's unstable.

I understand the game mechanic aspect of creating a challenge for the player but I feel like the smart, realistic and historical option would be to hit the big power while it's weak not wait honorably till they're ready to give you a proper challenge.
Realistically it would make for an easier transition of power, but you wouldn't realistically win in the first place. I also agree that it kind of breaks reality since ALL grand invaders of China invaded during times of turmoil. Mongolia, Manchu, Britain, Japan, nobody invaded when China was a functioning state.

They can have it so that a weakened China still puts up a good fight, since realistically conquering China was a long and bloody process even when China was in total chaos. It also allows for people who don't want cheese pan-continental empires to have a chance against China if they are smart with their commanders, strategy, tech, and internal stability. I mean, you should still be MAJOR to take on China, but it should be the likes of a centralized Caliphate, the Indian Empire, or the Roman Empire, and not Big-Red-Blob-Cheese-McGuffins