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CK2 Dev Diary #68: Taming the Dragon

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk about what you can do should you decide that being in the Emperor’s good graces isn’t a priority. While most characters will want to pay tribute to China in order to reap benefits over a longer time, certain characters would rather give that up for short-term gain - or simply think themselves a contender to the Middle Kingdom…

You can take Hostile Actions towards China by entering a special menu located next to the portrait of the Western Governor in the China Screen. In this menu you will exclusively find actions that in one way or another displeases the Emperor - the most basic of examples being the decision to declare a war to free yourself from being an Imperial Tributary.
Hostile Actions.png


The three most interesting Hostile Actions you can take are the following three ones; Raiding China, Forcing China to Open Up and Invading China.

Raiding China
This action can only be taken if you own a province within a certain Geographical region, which includes Tibet, Mongolia and Eastern India. When you choose to Raid China, you give up a portion of your Levy and Levy Regain Rate (Manpower if Nomadic), a significant chunk of your Trade Income should you own any Silk Road Trade Posts, and the ability to Pay Tribute or Ask for Boons. You will also lose a static amount of Grace every month you Raid China. Raiding China will also paint a target on your head - should China go on the warpath, they might just visit you first...

When Raiding China you will, each year, receive loot taken from the outskirts of the Middle Kingdom. A random amount of Gold, Prestige and other treasures can be found when Raiding, making the interaction particularly attractive for smaller realms (i.e. the tribal peoples in Northern Tibet) and Nomads (as they rely heavily on prestige, and lack many sources of income).

There are many potential outcomes when Raiding China, while most often you will receive a modest amount of gold and prestige, sometimes you will receive something altogether more rare - your raiders can bring home vast treasures, artifacts, siege engineers (of questionable loyalty), concubines or even beasts from the Chinese wilderness…
Raiding China.png


Forcing China to Open Up
If China should turn inwards and become Isolationist you might find your empire without the massive benefits of the Silk Road. If you’re strong enough, you can try and make China open up the Silk Road again. This can be done in a multitude of ways - all which start with you negotiating with them:

Peaceful Negotiation - The Emperor might demand something from you in exchange for opening up - for example that you become his Tributary, or that you send back all Chinese characters in your court, etc.

War - If negotiations fail, you can decide to attack China in order to make them open up. This will act much like a normal war against China, with them bringing in forces from China proper to teach you a lesson in humility.

Being Sovereign on the Silk Road - If you control enough of the Silk Road yourself, you might decide to simply open the Silk Road again. This will NOT please China, who might retaliate with military force.

Should you succeed in opening up the Silk Road you will become Favored in Trade for a significant amount of years, increasing your Trade Post income by 100%.

Invading China
Invading China is no easy task - and reserved exclusively for massive empires with vast armies. Similarly to the Mongols, Invading China can be seen as an ‘end-game boss’, only that the war is started on your terms - when you feel ready to take them on.

In order to Invade China it needs to be either Stable or in a Golden Age, as this war represents less of an opportunistic land-grab and more a clash of titans. As China isn’t on the map, you will not be able to seize the Dragon Throne for your own character - but you will be able to seize it for your Dynasty! Before declaring the invasion, you select a Dynasty member (who doesn’t stand to inherit any land) to be the pretender to the Middle Kingdom.
Invade China.png


For as long as the war is going on, you will have a massive penalty to your Levy Regain rate (simulating troops seizing China Proper). In response, China will send a massive force westwards to challenge your armies - this army is vast, composed of high-quality troops and led by the very best Chinese commanders. The war itself focuses on battles and supremacy on the battlefield, rather than sieges - you will not be able to win this type of war by blitzing the lands of the Western Protectorate (should it have any), and neither will China be able to win it by just sieging your holdings. Typically, you will have to defeat about 75% of China's forces, along with reclaiming everything they might have sieged from you, in order to secure a victory.

Long-time players of CK2 might be vary of such a war, as the AI in CK2 tended to gather up all their troops in one massive doomstack - either suiciding to attrition, or in the case of attrition-free troops steamroll the opposition. After having playtested the Invasion we decided to revamp the AI in situations where it commands vast amounts of troops - they will now try and respect supply limits, though they will still want to stick close to other units and support them in potential battles. The following screenshot displays the new behaviour:
Chinese Troops Arrive.png


This means that to defeat China, your best bet is to lure them into mountain passes or use other terrain to your advantage.

If you win the Invasion of China, you will receive VAST rewards. You will immediately get a massive amount of gold, grace, prestige and artifacts (including all top-quality Chinese artifacts). You will also personally take any land the Western Protectorate might have had in the west. Your pretender will rise to the throne of China, forming a new Chinese-style dynasty, and your dynasty will be guaranteed to rule for at the very least 200 years. For as long as your dynasty rules, all landed members of your dynasty will receive a significant amount of grace every month - allowing them to tap into the vast resources of China much more easily than they would otherwise. Having your Dynasty on the throne also (practically…) guarantees that China won’t ever take hostile actions against you or your Dynasty.
Turkish China.png


Note that in addition to these hostile actions, remember that you can always attack China with normal CBs, seizing the land of the Western Protectorate. That, however, is a thing you would be wise to do while China is suffering from some kind of disaster, as then they’ll be able to call upon much fewer troops than if they would be stable.
 
Either Confucian with Catholic set to Harmonization, or Catholic proper. It had better be Catholic proper, or it defeats the purpose.

I could understand Confucian with Catholic Harmonization, considering converting the entirety of China to the true faith is going to be quite an ordeal. Running the Empire is going to take precedent over piety unless the Emperor were a zealot. Most of the bureaucrats aren't going to be Catholic, and certainly not the army, and the last thing you want to do when ruling a country is piss off the army. The Catholic Emperor on the other hand is going to be educated in Chinese traditions and values in order to best understand how to rule China, so even the most European, white, and Catholic Emperor of China is going to basically be practicing a sinocized version of Catholic. God is still the one true God, the Pope is still the head of the Church, and he is slowly going to try and spread the good news through China, but he is going to be pragmatic enough to the point where he is effectively Confucian.

Also, the Empire of China requires being ruled by an Eastern religious group in EU4. I'm pretty sure the Emperor can convert in-game after already being Emperor (i.e Japan gets the throne, and Christianizes during the Krishitan event chain), but starting out Catholic through a save converter might break the Empire of China.

See, I understand all this, but that's the beauty of CK II, and Europa, especially with the converter, is the possibility of endless possibilities, and this to me is one that could really shake the foundation of starting games in EU IV.

I'd understand if ALL of China wasn't pagan, or catholic, but maybe have half of it converted? Or maybe depending on time frame. You figure, if your family has ruled as Catholics, or pagan for over 200 years.. that's a LONG time for your family to influence your beliefs/religion/traditions on China.

I just don't know how the converter will deal with that. I play CK II with every intent for every game, to convert it into EU IV and keep going. If a dlc like this for example is going to ignore a major change in history such as this... I'll probably opt out of this dlc. Something I'd never thought I'd do tbh. I even bought and loved the aztec invasion dlc, primarily because that DID alter and change the EU IV landscape in conversion to something that made sense for the situation and everything lined up properly.

Realistically it would make for an easier transition of power, but you wouldn't realistically win in the first place. I also agree that it kind of breaks reality since ALL grand invaders of China invaded during times of turmoil. Mongolia, Manchu, Britain, Japan, nobody invaded when China was a functioning state.

They can have it so that a weakened China still puts up a good fight, since realistically conquering China was a long and bloody process even when China was in total chaos. It also allows for people who don't want cheese pan-continental empires to have a chance against China if they are smart with their commanders, strategy, tech, and internal stability. I mean, you should still be MAJOR to take on China, but it should be the likes of a centralized Caliphate, the Indian Empire, or the Roman Empire, and not Big-Red-Blob-Cheese-McGuffins

I'd agree with this. The only time I could see you contending with China 1 on 1 when it's strong is if you controlled pretty much an empire the size of Rome at its highest point, or bigger, owning all of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. Only then would you have the power to fight China in its Golden Era.

But you'd normallly want to fight them at their weakest. The strength you have now should be China's weakest point imo. Something that makes far more sense, as you figure, you're putting a completely different culture, religion, and style of ruler on the throne of China.. China would have to be pretty fractured for that new ruler not to get kicked off in a short time span, by oriental chinese causing non stop civil wars to kick this invader off the throne.

Only time a transition like that would even go through successfull, albiet barely still, is when that nation is so fractured, it can't come together enough to do it successfully.
 
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Wait why are people claiming Genghis Khan didn't invade China? Do the Jurchens not count? Does it not count because he died before the total victory over the north? Does it not count because he never took southern Song China?

In the stream we saw the Chinese getting replaced by Jurchens. Are the Song China or are the Jurchens China? Does the Jurchen invasion mean the Jurchens invade all of china?
 
I'm glad I am alive to see the player invade an off-map Empire. #Paradox2017 hasn't disappointed. I'm patiently waiting for the China map add-on expansion, only £14.99!

Only jesting, but I suppose this is better than nothing, just feel a little bit let down with this expansion, seems to be a continuous theme this year.

Yeah, I'm the same. I'm happy to see Tibet got added, but I'm disappointed with how they handled China. There's so much missed potential there.

I'll probably get the DLC, but only once the Tianxia mod had been updated to compatible with it. Because I look forward to seeing how they're implement the features from Jade Dragon with a proper playable China.
 
I'm sure they will filter who ever is sent to china to prevent an infertile character from being sent. It would be very silly to send a childless eunuch off and have a kid randomly generated or lose the throne like that in one generation.
 
Here's my question: How are Warring Periods going to be represented, when there's not just 1 China, but 3 or 4 of them? And because CKII is 'Alt-History: The Game (Medieval Edition)', how can Non-Chinese States take advantage of these periods?
 
Here's my question: How are Warring Periods going to be represented, when there's not just 1 China, but 3 or 4 of them? And because CKII is 'Alt-History: The Game (Medieval Edition)', how can Non-Chinese States take advantage of these periods?
Wouldn't this just be a "bad" period for the Chinese empire? For all the rest of the world is concerned, China is in a civil war, not 3 sovereign states. A conqueror is just going to kill everyone equally, and a trader is going to do business with whatever representative of the "emperor" offers the best deal. Unfortunately, this expansion won't simulate the alternate history possibility of the "last" emperor of China, where China dissolves like Rome and becomes permanently fragmented like India.
 
Wouldn't this just be a "bad" period for the Chinese empire? For all the rest of the world is concerned, China is in a civil war, not 3 sovereign states. A conqueror is just going to kill everyone equally, and a trader is going to do business with whatever representative of the "emperor" offers the best deal. Unfortunately, this expansion won't simulate the alternate history possibility of the "last" emperor of China, where China dissolves like Rome and becomes permanently fragmented like India.

So basically the entire period from the end of the Tang in 907 to the end of the Song in 1279 is a Chinese civil war?

Makes sense.
 
If I put my dynasty in power in China then port to EUIV, does that translate into a Personal Union?
 
A question,
If you place your dynasty on the chinese throne and then convert your game, would china be ruled by your dynasty with your religion as the state religion.
If so what would happen with the culture and potential interactions, ie getting a PU with China
 
I could understand Confucian with Catholic Harmonization, considering converting the entirety of China to the true faith is going to be quite an ordeal. Running the Empire is going to take precedent over piety unless the Emperor were a zealot. Most of the bureaucrats aren't going to be Catholic, and certainly not the army, and the last thing you want to do when ruling a country is piss off the army. The Catholic Emperor on the other hand is going to be educated in Chinese traditions and values in order to best understand how to rule China, so even the most European, white, and Catholic Emperor of China is going to basically be practicing a sinocized version of Catholic. God is still the one true God, the Pope is still the head of the Church, and he is slowly going to try and spread the good news through China, but he is going to be pragmatic enough to the point where he is effectively Confucian.

Also, the Empire of China requires being ruled by an Eastern religious group in EU4. I'm pretty sure the Emperor can convert in-game after already being Emperor (i.e Japan gets the throne, and Christianizes during the Krishitan event chain), but starting out Catholic through a save converter might break the Empire of China.
I might be wrong, but wasn't there something about Buddhism actually becoming very big under teh Tang before being cracked down upon? If so then how is it impossible that the religion proper could spread. Assuming you take China early enough of course, so perhaps some percentage of China converts with a small chance each decade of the percentage rising.
 
Wait why are people claiming Genghis Khan didn't invade China? Do the Jurchens not count? Does it not count because he died before the total victory over the north? Does it not count because he never took southern Song China?

Because he didn't became Emperor of China and didn't crown anybody emperor of China. Kublai Khan was the first Mongol Emperor of China.
So Genghis Khan didn't 'invade' China in game terms. It was more like 'Raiding'.

In the stream we saw the Chinese getting replaced by Jurchens. Are the Song China or are the Jurchens China? Does the Jurchen invasion mean the Jurchens invade all of china?

It's an random event in which the Jurchen can invade whole China. It's not a historical event.
 
Because he didn't became Emperor of China and didn't crown anybody emperor of China. Kublai Khan was the first Mongol Emperor of China.
So Genghis Khan didn't 'invade' China in game terms. It was more like 'Raiding'.



It's an random event in which the Jurchen can invade whole China. It's not a historical event.
I suppose I can accept that but I figure it's more like Genghis Khan started the invasion of Jurchen China and died half way through. These kinds of wars shouldn't end on ruler death.

But if the Song are China and the Jurchens aren't then I guess I can accept Kublai being the first Chinese Emperor.

I still think that you should be able to declare for your own rule of China and simply switch to playing your heir on success. It'd be sad not to get to take china for ol Genghis.
 
I suppose I can accept that but I figure it's more like Genghis Khan started the invasion of Jurchen China and died half way through. These kinds of wars shouldn't end on ruler death.

But if the Song are China and the Jurchens aren't then I guess I can accept Kublai being the first Chinese Emperor.
Yup, the Song dynasty held the richest part of China, most of the Chinese mainland and truly represent the Empire of China.
The Jin dynasty and Western Xia are states standing in de jure China, but not really proper China.
Genghis Khan never invaded the Songs; Ogedei Khan started the invasion (after a frontier dispute over the Jin lands if I'm not mistaken, since the Songs helped the Mongols defeat the Jin dynasty).

I still think that you should be able to declare for your own rule of China and simply switch to playing your heir on success. It'd be sad not to get to take china for ol Genghis.
This should come with unbearable problems to rule this country. I can't see China being ruled from a foreign capital without a lot of instability and unrest. During the Mongol Empire period, Chinese lands were very hard to hold for the Mongols. And their capital was not even very far away. No wonder Kublai took Beijing as capital and progressively adopted a chinese imperial bureaucracy (same for the Qing dynasty centuries after).
On the contrary, if the capital is in China, with a foreign emperor adopting Chinese administration and aspects of Chinese culture, it would be very hard to rule lands past the Tarim Basin and in India... The distances are very long and the geography (deserts, mountain ranges) makes it difficult to enforce the rule of the Emperor by force very far into CK2 map.
 
Either Confucian with Catholic set to Harmonization, or Catholic proper. It had better be Catholic proper, or it defeats the purpose.

I could understand Confucian with Catholic Harmonization, considering converting the entirety of China to the true faith is going to be quite an ordeal. Running the Empire is going to take precedent over piety unless the Emperor were a zealot. Most of the bureaucrats aren't going to be Catholic, and certainly not the army, and the last thing you want to do when ruling a country is piss off the army. The Catholic Emperor on the other hand is going to be educated in Chinese traditions and values in order to best understand how to rule China, so even the most European, white, and Catholic Emperor of China is going to basically be practicing a sinocized version of Catholic. God is still the one true God, the Pope is still the head of the Church, and he is slowly going to try and spread the good news through China, but he is going to be pragmatic enough to the point where he is effectively Confucian.

Also, the Empire of China requires being ruled by an Eastern religious group in EU4. I'm pretty sure the Emperor can convert in-game after already being Emperor (i.e Japan gets the throne, and Christianizes during the Krishitan event chain), but starting out Catholic through a save converter might break the Empire of China.

When they showed the Invade China mechanic in the streams, they confirmed that China will be Catholic in EU4 if you install a Catholic relative on the Dragon Throne.

Now imagine the fun of winning that fabulous invasion for Catholicism only to find out your pretender converted to Hindu in secret :p
 
Would be quite amusing should the Song manage to get usurped by the Sing Dynasty.