CK2 Dev Diary #72 - Reflections of a Dynasty

[Trin Tragula]

Good overall post however I do have a question regarding grammar.

What you meant by "thought"? Perhaps taught?

You’re quite correct. My phone and I don’t always think alike alas

 

[Trin Tragula]

@TheDungen I was indeed studying in Lund (and I was also born and raised there). I believe the discussed courses are now given at half speed only however

 

[TheDungen]

@TheDungen I was indeed studying in Lund (and I was also born and raised there). I believe the discussed courses are now given at half speed only however

Nice that's where I am studying right now I should check it out if i ever has a void in my schedule that needs filling.

 

[Bearnest]

In the early period how many nobles do you think were even literate?`
A viking chieftain with a personal library? When writing was considered a mythical art?

being able to read, write, commission and value books, etc, are above all things that kept books very rare throughout most of the era and why (IMO) they make sense as special artifacts in the game.

I wonder if in order to receive the benefits of the books, there should be a "Literate" trait.
The Middle Ages had a high rate of illiteracy, even among nobles. Reading and writing was something nobles paid other people to do. It was very rare for even a king (I'm thinking Charlemagne) to be able to read and write. Charlemagne, however recognized the usefulness of the written word and even learned to do so himself, but he was an adult by that time.

 

[Viridianus]

I wonder if in order to receive the benefits of the books, there should be a "Literate" trait.
The Middle Ages had a high rate of illiteracy, even among nobles. Reading and writing was something nobles paid other people to do. It was very rare for even a king (I'm thinking Charlemagne) to be able to read and write. Charlemagne, however recognized the usefulness of the written word and even learned to do so himself, but he was an adult by that time.

Isn't the Learning parameter for this? Though you're right in theory, it certainly seems CKII tends to ignore that.

 

[TheDungen]

I wonder if in order to receive the benefits of the books, there should be a "Literate" trait.
The Middle Ages had a high rate of illiteracy, even among nobles. Reading and writing was something nobles paid other people to do. It was very rare for even a king (I'm thinking Charlemagne) to be able to read and write. Charlemagne, however recognized the usefulness of the written word and even learned to do so himself, but he was an adult by that time.

Yes but as Trin pointed out reading was mostly done out loud, you don't need to be able to read to have someone who can read read aloud to you. Not that being literate wouldn't be a cool trait.

 

[Bearnest]

Yes but as Trin pointed out reading was mostly done out loud, you don't need to be able to read to have someone who can read read aloud to you. Not that being literate wouldn't be a cool trait.

I thought about this point after posting. Maybe you wouldn't need the trait if you have someone at court that has it; a "Resident Reader" or a "Copyist".

 

[TheDungen]

I thought about this point after posting. Maybe you wouldn't need the trait if you have someone at court that has it; a "Resident Reader" or a "Copyist".

I think it's fairly fair to assure most court chaplains can read.

Perhaps not if they're tribal though... and also not every language. Would be cool with language in the game.

 

[CKpotato]

c

 

[vandevere]

Now here's a subject close to my heart I spent a year in uni studying the history of books (not literature, physical books, a tiny but very fascinating nerdy subject that fortunately was taught at the university I was at). I can warmly recommend it to anyone with an interest in it.

I generally agree with you, personal libraries as we think of them were not a thing in this era (they did however exist much further back, in Roman times). Reading was most likely done out loud for much of the era and books were very rare. This was not however because the books were harder to keep in themselves. Old parchment books keep *much* better than most modern paper. They actually handle things like dampness and the like better and even swell during some part of the year only to retract again during other parts without really being harmed from it. They also respond much better to being touched and handled than modern paper (not to mention the paper of 80-100 years ago which is extremely brittle).
That said, there are of course dangers that are more common back then, some colors can eat through the paper in themselves, fires, floods, wars, as well as rats and other pests that are dangerous to books were more common and harder to protect against. Finding someone to write and care for the books would in many cases have been less than straightforward as well.
Of course just how rare differs over the period, CK covers an incredibly long time after all, and written working materials for various forms of book keeping, for early university education and the like would have been more common than actual books. Motivating the keeping of books would not have been easy at all times and places either (especially if they weren't on a valued subject, monasteries are notorious for copying the books they did want to preserve over ones they did not value).

All in all, as you say, being able to read, write, commission and value books, etc, are above all things that kept books very rare throughout most of the era and why (IMO) they make sense as special artifacts in the game. Still the how, what and why is really interesting as books are the at the core of the subject of history itself

I will end this rambling post by saying that having played around a bit with this feature as part of Content Review I really like it for it the flavor it brings and I hope many of you will too

Indeed, a lot of books were probably kept at monasteries. Remember, the Printing Press only came into being at the very end of the Game's era, if not just after. To replace a book, it took a copyists who painstakingly copied the book down, letter by letter.

 

[TheDungen]

Indeed, a lot of books were probably kept at monasteries. Remember, the Printing Press only came into being at the very end of the Game's era, if not just after. To replace a book, it took a copyists who painstakingly copied the book down, letter by letter.

Well the movable type was invented in 1439 in Europe (May have been others who had it before that elsewhere), but other forms of printing predate it by more than century.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

Personally I would like literate vs. illiterate distinctions made, in addition to language being a factor. That might be too granular, however, and I'm not certain how that would work mechanically in-game.

 

[TheDungen]

Personally I would like literate vs. illiterate distinctions made, in addition to language being a factor. That might be too granular, however, and I'm not certain how that would work mechanically in-game.

I'm personally hoping for a skill list in ck3.

In fact I could see a ck3 where characters don't have a culture at all but instead have the languages they speak/understand and speaking/understanding the language of the locals is what lowers revolt risk, and not having a common language with another noble is what gives a penalty to relationship.
The idea of culture is a bit to much nationalism for the era in my opinion but language and the obstacle it poses is a very real thing in this era.