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CK2 Dev Diary #78 - Polishing up the Map

Greetings!

We’re working away, and we’ve been working away for quite some time now - it’s just much too early to go into detail on what we’re doing yet, but rest assured that we have a lot of interesting stuff going on!

Without spoiling the theme of the upcoming expansion, we want to give you something to look at and discuss. In addition to all the theme-specific features we’re making, we’re also slowly working our way through some of the more neglected areas of the map, correcting mistakes and increasing the granularity of the playing field. Here’s one such area, Poland:
Poland_update.png

Code:
- Map Update to Poland
    - General overhaul to the De Jure territory of the Kingdom of Poland
    - Vistula (major) river tweaked to be more geographically accurate
    - (Minor) river Oder tweaked for more geographical accuracy
    - (Minor) rivers Warta and Bug added
    - 6 new provinces, mostly improving granularity in Mazovia and Lesser Poland
    - All old provinces moved and reshaped for more consistency
    - Some updated provincial Coats of Arms

Later this spring (date yet TBD) we’ll release a bug-fixing patch, so remember to head over to the bug forums and report any issues you find.

Please note that the time between Dev Diaries will be irregular, as we’re very early in the development cycle.
 
It's interesting. What would be a large mistake for you then? A mistake in Scandinavia, especially in Sweden? A mistake in your region or country?
Is EU2 map, which had Polish regions completely swapped and so in wrong places also a minor mistake?
Of course mistakes happen, and Paradox games are full of them. In this case we are not speaking of single mistake though. Polish region has a lot of duplicated or misnamed towns, and this wasn't corrected for six years. In general, in Paradox games Poland has plenty of mistakes and is one of the least developed.
For me, such mistakes and lack of care to fix them shows lack of respect towards said nation and country. Furthermore such mistakes don't happen that often in other regions. If someone from Paradox finds this region uninteresting or unimportant, or they dislike it because of history with plenty of wars between Scandinavians and West Slavs, this could be a case of racism and nationalism, something Paradox is seeming to despise.
If it would prove true, it could create a lot of bad press for Paradox, and not only in the press, but even further.

It didn't knew that having towns with proper names in proper places makes strategy hardcore.
So after all those years they have finally taken your country into notice, as you would say, and what is your reaction?

Honestly. They are digital games makers, not proffessional historians. With a very small team of programmers and developers, they made a game with insane database of rulers, and a map with hundreds of provinces full of thousands of cities, castles or towns they have never heard of before. To make everything easier, they took a map they had at their disposal - from CK1 - and tweaked it slightly. Poland was among the few regions, which were corrected back then. Unlike Germany, for instance, unlike other regions, which have been neglected for years with no revision at all. In fact, for Crusader kings (1 and 2), Poland is getting its second map overhaul. Germany got 0. North Africa got 0. Are they anti-Polish? Who is nationalist here who can't see beyond the corner of his small village?

What is major and what is minor mistake? It is a mistake, which is visible at first sight. For instance having 2 provinces placed the other way around... for instance if Gniezno was placed west of Poznan. That is a big mistake in terms of the map, not having wrongly named barony inside a province - a barony whose name will be noticed, but only if you play directly in region, while that major bug would be noticed in every game. Yet even a big map mistake is still nothing compared to a glitch causing the game to crash (they're programmers, just to remind you).
As for towns - they were just filling holes they needed filled. Sometimes they picked a city that was there, sometimes they picked a modern one, sometimes they used one with various names. We know this from all parts of the map, Poland, Bohemia, Germany, Greece, Italy. In Poland they actually used a city, which was located few kilometers away and misspelled one its letter. What a miracle that they missed only one! Have you got any idea how hard it is to get your spelling right for foreigners?

While I understand your concerns about them using the same town in 2 or more provinces and some of them even having misspelled (I have been criticizing and suggesting corrections for years!), you might have missed that Poland is no exception in this. These kind of inaccuracies are everywhere. There are regions like for instance Germany, North Africa or Romania, where this is regular and where there are much worse inaccuracies. Many of them were in the Middle East.

They certainly didn't know the geography of those regions. Should they better have everything done propperly? Sure. Have you got any idea how long it takes to do a propper research for a region like Poland to have all provinces, but also their settlements, rulers etc. propperly researched? For Poland only it would take few months! And you've got several dozens of such regions on the map. Overhauling Persia for SWMH map mod took me almost a year and I didn't even cover half of CK2 timeline and guess what? right when other guy replaced me, he noticed that I made some mistakes, because i didn't read a source, which had proven that the ruler I used has not really ruled some territory (where I used him as placeholder), but another... and that I overlooked a city or two... or used wrong transcription and I didn't realize those 2 were the same. But were they using these standards, we might be now discussing a state of CK2 map right after its release in 2017 - 5 years after its actual release.

They certainly did mistakes in regions they didn't know well... so perhaps instead of whining and accusing them of nationalistic bias or even racism (how can a Swede be racist against Poles???), how about helping them like others do? If you think they did it intentionaly, let's do this. I will give you two weeks and you will give me a map of West Africa fixed... or Germany... or Italy - they all need to get fixed much more than your Poland (and I guess you know the same background about them as the PDX guys knew about Poland). With all the rulers, settlements, provinces shaped propperly. Oh and I forgot, you should also put it all in script (like CK2 Landed_titles.txt). Okay?

This:
But, you don't really need a historically accurate map to see that Hradec Králové is not a part of Moravia, or Znojmo is a part of Austria. Or the fact that the map looks terrible in its current state. @[Arthur-PDX]
btw, what is that third map? Bohemian empire? It is some alternative-history, or are these alternative facts? Since when did emperor Charles IV died in 1381, and since when was Bohemia ruled by Charles VI in 1480? :)
 
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This:
But, you don't really need a historically accurate map to see that Hradec Králové is not a part of Moravia, or Znojmo is a part of Austria. Or the fact that the map looks terrible in its current state. @[Arthur-PDX]

The last map is fantasy.
 
btw, what is that third map? Bohemian empire? It is some alternative-history, or are these alternative facts? Since when did emperor Charles IV died in 1381, and since when was Bohemia ruled by Charles VI in 1480? :)
Took it for the city placement, actually...
 
I guess "south" Africa is more accurate. But basically the Africa we have at the edge of the map. So west Africa.
Considering available resources, West Africa (Mali) is neglected to understandable degree since I know it's hard to do it justice with no big effort. (although I know that with some effort, it could have been greatly improved).
What's striking me is North Africa. It is quite close to Europe, sources for it are much more available... and yet, even if you look at the borders (those rectangular shapes), you see there was no effort whatsoever with half of the provinces anachronistic or misplaced or both...
And then a Pole jumps in after second ovehaul of his country and accuses Paradox of anti-Polish racism :D :D

Took it for the city placement, actually...
I thought so... but IMHO it should have been pointed out. And anyway, not many of them there.. but please don't take it badly. I find it actually funny - the map, so thanks for showing me! ;)
 
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OK, I read up on the history of my country a bit more, and made this map:

Rozbicie dzielnicowe.jpeg


The numbers on the map are the years when those territories were split off from the kings' demesne (1138) or from the Seniorate Province.


Silesia (Śląsk) - black:

The duchy of Silesia, created in 1138, contained all the obvious territories plus Lubusz county. Later, Lubusz was controlled by the Duke of Greater Poland only for 2 years - the rest of time it was under Silesian or German control. That's why I believe Lubusz should be moved to the Duchy of Silesia.

The other counties should be called Legnica (not Lower Silesia; see the Duchy of Legnica 1248-1675), Wrocław, Opole (not Upper Silesia, see the Duchy of Opole and Racibórz 1202-1281) and Cieszyn.

Useful map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Silesia_1248-1249.jpg



Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) - red:

In 1138, only the west part of the Greater Poland region was given to the Duke; but in 1181 he managed to take Kalisz and Wieluń from the Polish Seniorate Province.

Wieluń was considered a part of the duchy of Greater Poland until 1396, when it was made part of Sieradz voivodeship (which became part of the Greater Poland province). That's why I believe Wieluń should be moved to de jure Greater Poland, as 1396 is really late in CK2 terms.

The other counties should be called Poznań, Kalisz and Krajna (not Nakło).

Useful map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wielkopolska_za_czasów_Mieszka_III_Starego_(1138-1202).jpg


Mazovia (Mazowsze) - east blue:

The Duke of Mazovia got the duchy as a whole in 1138.

If we want to keep the county border on Vistula, I think that the counties should be called Płock, Rawa (not Czersk), Liw and Łomża.

Historically, there were different, but changing, county borders - see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mazowsze1313.png or https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mazowsze1381.png


Kuyavia (Kujawy) - west blue:

Kujawy, Dobrzyń, Sieradz and Łęczyca
were split off from the Polish Seniorate Province by Mazovian duke Konrad I, but the union with Mazovia was temporary; later on Kujawy+Dobrzyń had their own rulers (and more inner splits), and Sieradz+Łęczyca had different ones (and was randomly being split into Sieradz and Łęczyca). Still, in CK2 terms, Kujawy+Dobrzyń+Sieradz+Łęczyca can be a single duchy of Kuyavia.

Kujawy and Sieradz shouldn't be merged into a single county; all four counties should be included.

Main map data source: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_I_mazowiecki


Lesser Poland (Małopolska):

Like Greater Poland, Mazovia and Silesia, Sandomierz was one of the duchies created in 1138; while Kraków together with eastern Greater Poland, Kuyavia, Sieradz and Łęczyca was the Seniorate Province. However, Kraków and Sandomierz for about 80% of time were owned by the same duke, so they can be a single CK2 duchy.

Kraków was never split into smaller counties; while Sandomierz was once, for 7 years (county of Wiślica, the southern part of Sandomierz on the map; note that the town is on the western side of Vistula). Lublin, Stężyca, Łuków weren't really considered separate regions until 1474 (when Lublin+Łuków were separated into voivodeship) and 1568 (when Stężyca was separated). Therefore, I believe that:
- Kraków should be a single county
- Sandomierz can be divided in any way developers want in CK2 - I suggest calling the western half Sandomierz, and the eastern half Lublin, without separate Stężyca nor Sącz; you may also consider adding Wiślica, but it has to be on both sides of Vistula.
 
I thought so... but IMHO it should have been pointed out. And anyway, not many of them there.. but please don't take it badly. I find it actually funny - the map, so thanks for showing me! ;)
At that point I was too busy trying to find out how to refer to a member.:)
 
I really hope this is a hint that the next expansion or patch will give some love to geography/terrain. Regions like East Africa/Cantabria/Pyrenees/Alps/Caucuses/Tibet/Highlands... could use some force multipliers for more historic representation and dynamic games. With Stellaris making it possible to have "Uti possidetis" style peace deals next month I would also be really excited to see that incorporated into CK2, but admittedly it might be a bit much to add at this point.

Could we see some more "hardcore" game rules in the next big patch? It would be nice if we could turn on a "distance from capital" malus for either/both vassal opinion and perhaps provincial revolt risk. I'd like to do something about those awkward scenarios such as France, confined to de jure France almost entirely, owning a single county in Tibet for centuries (many of these sorts of things are the aftermath of wonky mongol disintegrations). Perhaps something preventing inheritance outside of Diplo range.
 
Paradox, addressing the Forum: "We're tidying up some borders and names, please enjoy this patch!"
Forum: (talking over itself) "WHAT.ABOUT.MY.COUNTRY/Could you maybe look at regions x,y,z since there's balance issues, anachronism, and ugly borders?/MeMEmeMeME/Are we getting Australia now?/You do not know the specific location of my tiny village in rural poland. You are all racists."

God, I missed Dev Diaries.