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Greetings!

Once again we will scour the tomes in our cartographer’s office! In the last DD we visited the Baltics, in this one we’re heading further up north – to the land of the Finns, a land of a thousand lakes and bear-gods.

As for Finland, the main reason for us doing a map update was the poor definition in the area. Anyone who has moved armies in the region knows that the pathing, at the best of times, can be quite strange – with armies often taking massive detours to reach their destination. The main contributing factor to this was the massive size of the provinces, and that they were connected to each other in illogical ways. As you can see, almost all provinces in the area have been cut up rather significantly (its rather subtle, but what constitutes ‘Pohjanmaa’ in the new image is actually three Counties). The average power of the area has not gone up significantly though, with most Counties containing at most two holdings (some even contain only one). What has gone up though is the enjoyment while playing in the area!

FinlandComparison.png

Credit, once again, goes to [Arthur-PDX]!

Code:
- Map Update to Finland
    - 8 new provinces in Finland, improving mobility and spread noticeably in the area
    - 2 new duchies in Finland (Ostrobothnia and Savonia)
    - 1 new province in Lapland, in the duchy of Kola

Please note that the time between Dev Diaries will be irregular, as we’re very early in the development cycle.
 
I'll be honest, it's extremely unlikely there will be any culture update for anyone, as it's extremely time consuming for not much added gameplay value

That's a shame, one of my biggest wishes is more cultures and religions, I like the variety and would absolutely buy a DLC that just did that.

Finland's looking good though.
 
That's a shame, one of my biggest wishes is more cultures and religions, I like the variety and would absolutely buy a DLC that just did that.

Finland's looking good though.
Seconded and I would definitely disagree that not much is added gameplay wise culture adds depth and immersion, without that mechanics is just a chore.
 
Seconded and I would definitely disagree that not much is added gameplay wise culture adds depth and immersion, without that mechanics is just a chore.

It's not a "it's not important with cultures", but rather a "it's extremely time consuming for a very limited experience". If we add a new religion there's a decent chance people will test it out. If we add a new area, or other type of feature, people will test it out. But if we simply add a new culture? People who's already interested will like it, of course, but people in general? They will make a value assessment and come to the conclusion it probably wasn't that much of a change, unless we give the new culture special features to make it stick out in some way or another
 
Seconded and I would definitely disagree that not much is added gameplay wise culture adds depth and immersion, without that mechanics is just a chore.
It adds immersion but it does not add depth, most cultures function very similarly there is no reason to subdivide the cultures into more mechanically identical cultures.
There are hundreds upon hundreds of other things that are a more worthwhile use of time.
 
It adds immersion but it does not add depth, most cultures function very similarly there is no reason to subdivide the cultures into more mechanically identical cultures.
There are hundreds upon hundreds of other things that are a more worthwhile use of time.
Yeah, most cultures function similarly as they are now and it is a bad thing. If, however, every culture, or at least a culture group would have some distinctive features, it would be worthwhile to play all of them and check different strategies. And it does not have to be a special building or a government form for all of them. +X% to [unit type], +X% tax income on [terrain type] or +X opinion to liege/vassals/any_group could make enough of a change to paint the map with additional layer of flavor. Players of the PDX games love to min/max things to the point of obsession and those kind of flavors would just fit perfectly in CK2.

Or, you can dare thinking in a large scope and make dynamic cultures that consist of numerous bonuses/penalties/features (like some new cultural utility holdings in the hospital/fort/trade_post tab), shift between one to another, merge, split and interact with each other. That is an idea for a whole medium-sized DLC and I bet it would be well received by the fanbase.

Also:
There are hundreds upon hundreds of other things that are a more worthwhile use of time.
I challenge you, or any other PDX dev to say that introducing the Satanist to the CK2 world was more important that reworking the cultures mechanics.
Me, personally, I love the Lucifer's Own but I still believe that it would be quite a risky statement.
 
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It's not a "it's not important with cultures", but rather a "it's extremely time consuming for a very limited experience". If we add a new religion there's a decent chance people will test it out. If we add a new area, or other type of feature, people will test it out. But if we simply add a new culture? People who's already interested will like it, of course, but people in general? They will make a value assessment and come to the conclusion it probably wasn't that much of a change, unless we give the new culture special features to make it stick out in some way or another
That is a very cynical view of things, also just because we don't play a specific culture doesn't mean we don't think it's presence add something to the game. I have never played Bedouine or Nubian but that doesn't mean I don't think their pressence added to my games as say Ethiopia or Persia.
Similarly I have never played Berber either but if you were to do a breakdown of nomadic and settled cultures in north Africa then I would be more than happy to play those.
And if you are concerned with things you can sell well down that road lies the big showy but ultimately pointless mechanics that made me quit EU4. Perhaps you should reconsider your DLC policy instead in that case, you don't have to be churning our DLCs like EA churned out Guitar Hero Sequels, i would remind you what happened to that franchise because of the way they treated it. Yeah lots of releases with big showy stuff will get you short term profit but you will be running your franchise into the ground doing that. If you did say 1 bigger DLC per year for your games then you could easily focus more on actually improving the game instead of making easily marketable mechanics.

It adds immersion but it does not add depth, most cultures function very similarly there is no reason to subdivide the cultures into more mechanically identical cultures.
There are hundreds upon hundreds of other things that are a more worthwhile use of time.
To you maybe but to me the feel of the time is what draws me to the game. And something about your last comments makes me thing of the patchwork of pointless mechanics added to eu4 recently. I would take more cultures over that any day. Heck I would take getting nothing over getting that.

And as someone below pointed out, this from the people who though adding lucifers own would add depth.


Yeah, most cultures function similarly as they are now and it is a bad thing. If, however, every culture, or at least a culture group would have some distinctive features, it would be worthwhile to play all of them and check different strategies. And it does not have to be a special building or a government form for all of them. +X% to [unit type], +X% tax income on [terrain type] or +X opinion to liege/vassals/any_group could make enough of a change to paint the map with additional layer of flavor. Players of the PDX games love to min/max things to the point of obsession and those kind of flavors would just fit perfectly in CK2.

Or, you can dare thinking in a large scope and make dynamic cultures that consist of numerous bonuses/penalties/features (like some new cultural utility holdings in the hospital/fort/trade_post tab), shift between one to another, merge, split and interact with each other. That is an idea for a whole medium-sized DLC and I bet it would be well received by the fanbase.

Also:

I challenge you, or any other PDX dev to say that introducing the Satanist to the CK2 world was more important that reworking the cultures mechanics.
Me, personally, I love the Lucifer's Own but I still believe that it would be quite a risky statement.
It doesn't evne have to be mechanically diffrent only thematically diffrent. I am reminded of rome total war where you could click on your cities on the map and enter battle view for that city. I think I painted the map with every faction just to see how diffrent cities looked under control of diffrent facations. It was utterly pointless from a game play perspective but I offered a reward more tangible than any "WC before year x" ever did.
Unique situations and combinations even when pointless or weak game play wise can be increadibly instresting. Like combining a certain culture with a certain region or certain terrain type.
 
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Yeah, most cultures function similarly as they are now and it is a bad thing. If, however, every culture, or at least a culture group would have some distinctive features, it would be worthwhile to play all of them and check different strategies. And it does not have to be a special building or a government form for all of them. +X% to [unit type], +X% tax income on [terrain type] or +X opinion to liege/vassals/any_group could make enough of a change to paint the map with additional layer of flavor. Players of the PDX games love to min/max things to the point of obsession and those kind of flavors would just fit perfectly in CK2.

Or, you can dare thinking in a large scope and make dynamic cultures that consist of numerous bonuses/penalties/features (like some new cultural utility holdings in the hospital/fort/trade_post tab), shift between one to another, merge, split and interact with each other. That is an idea for a whole medium-sized DLC and I bet it would be well received by the fanbase.
That is the crux of it though, you are not proposing we add a few new cultures because like both you and I have said hey function very similarly.
I am not saying that your idea would not be cool, it would, but you jumped from "split up/add some more cultures" to which I said would be a waste of time as they are all identical to "yeah you are right so overhaul the entire system".
What you want is an entire overhaul of the culture system, not adding a few more, massive difference in scale right there.

To you maybe but to me the feel of the time is what draws me to the game. And something about your last comments makes me thing of the patchwork of pointless mechanics added to eu4 recently. I would take more cultures over that any day. Heck I would take getting nothing over getting that.
Then roll back to versions where things have not been added if you would prefer nothing.
 
Then roll back to versions where things have not been added if you would prefer nothing.
I love how you ignored the entire rest of that post to concentrate on that one comment. I already told you how I solved it, I play CK2 instead.

That is the crux of it though, you are not proposing we add a few new cultures because like both you and I have said hey function very similarly.
I am not saying that your idea would not be cool, it would, but you jumped from "split up/add some more cultures" to which I said would be a waste of time as they are all identical to "yeah you are right so overhaul the entire system".
What you want is an entire overhaul of the culture system, not adding a few more, massive difference in scale right there.
They would still affect the greater balance of things, you wouldn't have every province in Germany acting like they are all the same and rise up as one in national uprisings like it's 1848. Also since ck2 unlike so many other of your games is so covered by large entities, the HRE the ERE the seljuks and so on the cultures are needed to make one place feel diffrent from another. Large monocultural blobs feels very much just like that a big uninteresting blob.
As for it being much work to balkanize certain cultures, I asssume you are talking about fixing the history files? Sure it would be a chore but not exactly a great undertaking.
 
The only cultures I find relevants are the ones that offer special mechanics, so that's down to Norse, nomadic cultures (I find the CB overpowered and don't use it but like that they get different levies in steppe counties) and that's about it. Even melting pots offer nothing interesting to me, just swapping a name for another. Cultural building isn't big enough a change into gameplay and since I can't control my levies I just end up playing the same way anyway.
 
That is the crux of it though, you are not proposing we add a few new cultures because like both you and I have said hey function very similarly.
I am not saying that your idea would not be cool, it would, but you jumped from "split up/add some more cultures" to which I said would be a waste of time as they are all identical to "yeah you are right so overhaul the entire system".
What you want is an entire overhaul of the culture system, not adding a few more, massive difference in scale right there.
I, personally, did not say that we need more cultures but I get what you mean.
I think that a total overhaul would be the nicest but there is also a lazy way - to replace all that "no special features" in the cultures tooltip with things like +X/-Y stats or opinion modifiers. That should make all the cultures a little bit more interesting to play.

The only cultures I find relevants are the ones that offer special mechanics, so that's down to Norse, nomadic cultures (I find the CB overpowered and don't use it but like that they get different levies in steppe counties) and that's about it. Even melting pots offer nothing interesting to me, just swapping a name for another. Cultural building isn't big enough a change into gameplay and since I can't control my levies I just end up playing the same way anyway.
You forgot the gender-equal cultures like Basque and Sumpa. That is quite a big deal. In my current game I keep my main dynasty branch Sumpa and have electic succession so I may play as females but I keep my vassals beingt Bödpa for the opposite reason.
 
I agree with both sides though...
+players+
The cultures are kinda blank, it is not much of a difference, only some cultural retinues and buildings for whole culture group... sometimes for single cultures. But for me it is why I love this game... When I was about to play this game, I have watched some videos on YT first and thought "meh, looks a little bit boring, just a map, no units at all", then I tried it myself and it's one of my most played games ever since!

The cultures adds a lot to originality, maybe it's not that deep or extremely game-changing, but this small detail is... your roleplay... or a way to express your feelings into the game itself.
It's about diversity, to be different from others. You want to play as an insignificant soon-to-be-extinct culture? Hell yeah! Time to change history! See Jerusalem to be Hebrew again? not a problem. Or you are just a simple patriot and love your country, go on, make it even greater. Theese things wouldn't add that much immersion without that small window saying "yeah, you are Basque" If I had just a general culture, I would miss the way to be something special.

+devs+
I can imagine it can be really time consuming... (I stuck my nose into modding CK2 cultures, it's not hard, but it takes time indeed)... I have wanted a Moravian culture for a long time, but.. what is the point to make another culture because one, or maybe ten people wants it, right?

Couldn't there be any fan-base voluntary help? If someone would make a culture, add them to history files, make buildings, add special translation in landed titles and then send it over to Devs for examination "Yeah, this seems alright, pretty decently made, perhaps this is too much / We may add this too / instead" or "Nah, this is garbage / bad idea / non historical"
 
Couldn't there be any fan-base voluntary help? If someone would make a culture, add them to history files, make buildings, add special translation in landed titles and then send it over to Devs for examination "Yeah, this seems alright, pretty decently made, perhaps this is too much / We may add this too / instead" or "Nah, this is garbage / bad idea / non historical"
We would need to sift through and review everything like that though to make sure it works and meets design standards. And that can often take longer than actually doing a task internally to begin with.
 
We would need to sift through and review everything like that though to make sure it works and meets design standards. And that can often take longer than actually doing a task internally to begin with.
Then have your folks do it as part of a crowdfunded patch. I dare say it would get funded.

Heck you could set up a patreon for regular patches, people who support the patches get them say two weeks early.

I'm not saying either of these are perfect solutions but they are example of alternate funding methods for content.
You did experiment with alternative ideas kind of along these liens with the HoI4 season pass I think.
 
I don't think people actually realise what "just add a new culture/religion" means. Or rather, how much work there actually is outside the culture file.

And religion is about 10 times worse. Cultures are handled per-group in files, but religions are usually specifically handled. E.g. CK2/events has 9 references to "swedish", but it has 296 references to "catholic". So if you add a new culture into the same group as the swedisih, you have to add it in 9 places. If you want to add a new christian religion, or any religion, you have to add it in 296 places, or at the very least check if you have to add it there.
 
I don't think people actually realise what "just add a new culture/religion" means. Or rather, how much work there actually is outside the culture file.

And religion is about 10 times worse. Cultures are handled per-group in files, but religions are usually specifically handled. E.g. CK2/events has 9 references to "swedish", but it has 296 references to "catholic". So if you add a new culture into the same group as the swedisih, you have to add it in 9 places. If you want to add a new christian religion, or any religion, you have to add it in 296 places, or at the very least check if you have to add it there.
The big deal is still the history files, find every character in every court and make sure they have the new culture/religion. I tried doing it for a mod once, wanted to separate Turkish from turkic. Took one look at all the characters in the files and then postponed it. Still haven't done it.
 
I love how you ignored the entire rest of that post to concentrate on that one comment. I already told you how I solved it, I play CK2 instead.


They would still affect the greater balance of things, you wouldn't have every province in Germany acting like they are all the same and rise up as one in national uprisings like it's 1848. Also since ck2 unlike so many other of your games is so covered by large entities, the HRE the ERE the seljuks and so on the cultures are needed to make one place feel diffrent from another. Large monocultural blobs feels very much just like that a big uninteresting blob.
As for it being much work to balkanize certain cultures, I asssume you are talking about fixing the history files? Sure it would be a chore but not exactly a great undertaking.

It depends a bit on the scale, since you can’t represent everything. For instance you could have continental Saxon turn into Low German instead of merging it with the other High German into German.
That would be on a sensible scale for the Vanilla game; however having Bavarian, Franconian, Alemannian/Swabian, Saxon and Thuringian could be too much for the scope of the vanilla game.
 
You forgot the gender-equal cultures like Basque and Sumpa. That is quite a big deal. In my current game I keep my main dynasty branch Sumpa and have electic succession so I may play as females but I keep my vassals beingt Bödpa for the opposite reason.

No, I did not mention it on purpose. It's too ahistorical and cognatic achieves the same purpose (favouring one gender other the other but still alowing both to rule). I understand some can see it as an interesting culture though. Personnaly I moded out agnatic for most religions as I feel female rulers add to the musical throne simulator feel.
 
It depends a bit on the scale, since you can’t represent everything. For instance you could have continental Saxon turn into Low German instead of merging it with the other High German into German.
That would be on a sensible scale for the Vanilla game; however having Bavarian, Franconian, Alemannian/Swabian, Saxon and Thuringian could be too much for the scope of the vanilla game.
I disagree I find the notion of a german culture alone in it's culture group very boring.
In my opinion the cultures should be divided along the stem duchies. Bavarian, Franconian, Lotharingian (Though this should just remain frankish, also also be the culture of the low countries, dutch and flemmish are eu4 things), swabian, and saxon. So essentially just Bavarian Franconian and Swabian that arent already in the game.