CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

[IsadorBG]

Two months ago I moved to another project at PDS. Nothing I can tell you anything about, I'm afraid.
I still follow what's going on with CK2 though, just not as closely as when I was on it.

- This post was made one day after the anniversary of Queen Victoria ascension to the throne.
- Mether move on another project one month Before the anniversary of her death.
- Today is exactly one month after the anniversary of her birth.

1+1+1= 3

Victoria 3 confirmed.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

First off, I think that you are seriously overestimating what it means to be "Christian". I think that the versions of syncretic Christianity practice in some parts of Nigeria or Papua New Guinea today would make the Pope blush, and that is after over 500 years of Papal injunctions, preaching and missionary work, at least in the case of Nigeria. CK2 even makes a nod to this by allowing Tribal Christians the ability to take concubines, something that is a definite no-no in the classical Catholic formulation of marriage.

Not entirely relevant.
Heretical, or twisted Christianity is still Christianity.

It is not really up to me to prove a claim that say Monemvasia had a predominance of Catholic practitioners, more appropriate would be for you to have to prove that the version of Christianity practiced in the hills of rural Greece complied 100% with the laws and teachings of the Catholic church. Hell, that's what made up about 90% of all of the heresies and apostasies of the Middle Ages - local variation from the Catholic defined "true" practice.

The thing is, that the prevailing view is that the majority of Monemvasia was in fact *Orthodox*, not Catholic. But even so, trying to demonstrate that the view that it should be Hellenic rather than the historically accepted Orthodox puts the burden onto the attempt to change the viewpoint of history.

A side not here, but if you ever get the chance pick up a copy of an old card game called Credo. Each player plays as a faction with a random selection of Doctrines that make up their faith. There are around 12 in total IIRC, each of which gets voted on at the various Councils during the game. Every time your particular Article passes you get more flock, every time one loses you lose flock. Eventually the entire creed is finalized, the last step in the game is for all players to recite the "new" Catholic Creed.

The reason that I bring this up is that for me it showed how all of those "heresies" that we read about were actually just local practices writ large - most people did not care two bits about whether or not priests should be celibate or not (this wasn't determined for the Catholics until the later Middle Ages) but they all sure as hell REALLY cared with whether or not Jesus was the same substance, different substance or some other variation of substance with God.


The bottom line here is that I would lay dollars to donuts that if you could magically transport yourself to 8th century Greece or Spain or Tunisia or Ireland you would see such a massive discrepancy in local practices that you might not even recognize them as being the same "Catholic" religion as defined and practiced in Rome.

Again, irrelevant. We aren't discussing whether the province was heretical.
We're discussing whether there were enough Hellenes to justify changing the province, or enough "significant" (I.e. influential - or even present - at court) nobles and courtiers to be represented.

My second point her is much smaller, and that is that an overview analysis is the first step for working out where to place those provinces or courtiers. If we were to determine that say one province and four courtiers was justified based purely on numerical analysis then my argument is that in the absence of any other information to the contrary why not put them in southern Greece, if only because they we have information that there was SOME sort of community in that area. Even if we do not know how big it was or how far that local practice varied from the centrally defined version of the faith, this is still more info than we have about what passed for Christian practice in say western Anatolia or the northern Levant.

Because you have to base each province off of its own situation. If a province is inhabited by a majority of one culture or religion, then that (for game purposes) is the culture or religion of the province.
You don't examine the global population and then assign provinces and characters based on that global breakdown. You assign them based on the *actual* provinces.

There's a suggestion that there was "druidic" traces around Glastonbury. Should we convert that province to Druidism?
Best not to, since it's an actual Catholic Holy site.

The isle of Wight had only relatively recently been converted (although it could have been Germanic or Celtic). Should we change its religion as well, since there were probably still some holding the old ways? But that'd change an entire county.

I don't know you but I am guessing that if you see, say, France going Jewish because the King's heir was converted by his Jewish tutor then you would have no big issue with that, even if IRL not one single independent realm on the map converted to Judaism in this way over the entire period of the game. You'd be okay with Germanic or Romuva or Slavic or whatever reforming itself even though none of them ever did or even got anywhere near close to doing so. You're okay with Druze and Zikri and Hurufism being in the game even though they are all formed outside the CK2 time period. Or Lollardy springing up in Spain in the 800s even though the intellectual underpinnings of this heresy arose only in England and only in the 1300's in reaction to Papal teachings of the 13th century. Or Bon coreligionists taking over Tibet even though it was already virtually gone as a distinct religionby the start of the CK2 period. Or a million other factual and contextual inaccuracies that exist in this game.

Again - the cost to implement this is near zero. In 99% of all cases any stray Hellenic courtiers and provinces will all die out within 20 yearsno matter what. By making them available though, players would have the option to take up the challenge of restoring the faith, just as player can now take a Germanic character in the 12th century or a Catholic Berber in the 8th century and try and restore them to their rightful place.

All I am saying is that the new mechanics of HF are ideally designed to allow players to reform ANY religion that they want, even ones with nil or close to nil existing unique mechanics, and turn them into interesting and unique religions in their own right. That to me seems to be what the whole idea of the DLC is all about, so why not allow this with existing religions that have no flavour, but could be made interesting using the mechanics of the new DLC ?

It's not really an existing religion. It barely has code.
The number of practitioners appears to be less than the margin of error in looking at historical records. The area in question is smaller than a barony in the province and shows signs of being partially Christian anyway.

There are claims (and I'll admit I can't find anything to back them up) that there was a Jewish vassal kingdom in the general area of Languedoc, called Septimania at the time of Pepin the great, and Charlemagne. Shall we convert this as well?


If we include all the remnant religions, we'd soon lose the actual real majority faiths in some areas.

 

[Kljunas]

The Hellenes of Laconia, the Maniotes, did not make up the majority of their province. The best way for them to be integrated would either be to add Castle Mania to the province and make its baron Hellenic, or to spawn a couple Hellenic courtiers in the regional court. In either case, I'd personally say that the Hellenes should be elderly and without children, so that only direct intervention can save the religion. This, on top of some Gemistus Pletho type event, could provide an alternative means, something other than Incitatus, to get the religion- not that it'd be especially flavorful or even really supported.

Could be tied to e.g. the search for a court physician and give you a small chance to find a Greek pagan character if you own the relevant province.

 

[KomodoWaran]

Will we be able to chose the title for the head of religion?

For example: Could one create a reformed faith where the head of religion is called the "Grand Poobah"?

 

[fredrikslicer]

Not entirely relevant.

There are claims (and I'll admit I can't find anything to back them up) that there was a Jewish vassal kingdom in the general area of Languedoc, called Septimania at the time of Pepin the great, and Charlemagne. Shall we convert this as well?

Arthur J Zuckerman have argued that the count of Narbonne was Makhir of Narbonne but under a diffferent name however this has since been refuted.

Still it is belived that there was a large precense in Narbonne which was the reason this legend became so prominent for a while so maybe a mayorship would be fitting?

 

[TheDungen]

How do you implement "picking first" with something like this?
Who gets second choice? How does that work?
Why exactly are we letting the controllers of the Holy Sites pick aspects? It's unlikely you'll ever actually be personally holding the sites in question. Either they'll be held by your (barony tier) priest vassals, or by vassals of your vassals.
Since no-one will (barring deliberate effort) control 2 sites directly, then your suggestion would always result in autocephaly.

And surely the AI is likely to "90%" pick the same thing every time for a given religion? It'll pick based on what's coded in, which will generally be in line with the baseline religion.

It'd also suck to have you reform the faith and get a reformation that screws you over because random picks gave you something you don't want to play with.

I didn't say control directly. I said control which I meant what already shows up as a controlled holy site in game that is in your realm. If I meant control directly I would have said owns. Second choice go to the highest piety of independent holy sites controllers. Third choice goes to the second highest piety of independent holy site controllers. Provided these exists. If not it goes back to the reformer to check if he has a second holy site and then to the next one and checks for a second holy site and so on.

Oh should be noted that with my idea the need to control three by sites to reform becomes needs to control a holy site and at least three holy sites needs to be held by members of your religion (and moral authority needs to be over a certain level amd a huge chunk of piety as cost).

If you want complete control write a novel. Sand box games need boundary conditions to tell a meaningful story. Why would all (well most) other practitioners of your religion go along with you naming yourself the head of the religion unless you already had the religion in a vice grip? And reforming a religion does not require that. I could buy this form if reformation if no one outside if your realm joined you.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

The problem is that you show as controlling the site if it is in lands that are held by someone below you in the holding chain.

So a site will show as controlled by you if you hold it personally, or one of your vassals, or one of theirs, and so on.

Jerusalem in 867 for example shows as controlled by both the Abbasid Emperor, and the Emir of Jerusalem (and presumably the baron tier Wali, although I can't load as them).

So do you mean the top tier liege of each site should get to pick an aspect?
Or everyone that has the marker that they control a site gets involved?

 

[Ysbaddaden]

I wonder, If we play as a heresy, i.e. Cathar; will we be able to reform the heresy if we get another authority or become the dominant majority?

 

[Battletank09]

With Certain Doctrines, will Reformed Pagans be able to evangelize to other pagans?

 

[Orphalesion]

With Certain Doctrines, will Reformed Pagans be able to evangelize to other pagans?

Apparently with the Proselytizing Nature

 

[odinnot]

awesome,but i hope i can appoint a new priest ,when old priest die.
also maybe the College of Cardinals or the head of religion can pick secular leaders to College of Cardinals pick a new head of religion.
they can pick anyone with the religion.

in the game some religion only have 1 Societies .
it would be great to make new open or secret Societies ,that is not available in that religion

 

[Prometheus_1]

Rather than stating that, show us.

How many were there?
How much of the area did the Maniots control, and what proportion were Hellenic in faith?


It's been repeatedly brought up. So far nothing has shown there to be a statistically significant population of Hellenics there.


And as for being less than a barony, take a look at the 769 start.
Go to the theme of Achaia.
Go to the county of Monemvasia.
Compare that to the maps in your links. The county is roughly equivalent to Laconia.
The Mani peninsula is roughly a fifth of the county, if we're generous. There are four slots in the county at start, 3 of which are built.

Hence, the entire peninsula is less than one barony in size, *and* the peninsula shows signs of being partially Christian, thus meaning that in the less than one barony space, the population wasn't even fully Hellenic.
To make the area Hellenic would require making the whole of Monemvasia Hellenic at start.

Now, if you want to dispute the relative size, that's fine. Just bring some good maps, and preferably a source suggesting how many of the local nobles were Hellene, and what proportion of the goat herding, olive tending peasants of the time were Hellene.


We've got signs of elements of Druidic practices surviving in deep woods in England through the 12th century - not as anything organised, and probably half remembered tales of grandfather's grandfather's grandfather having been told a story once - but enough that priests were sent to stamp it out. That's not a reason to claim that Derby should be Druidic, or that there should be a Druidic noble there though.

You miss the point.

1 This is a game and notn an historical essay.
2 You already got a bunchload of unhistorical things ( Aztecs ?)
3 HEllenism is already present ingame ( by modding if not wrong )
4 it takes zero effort to implement
5 it is Historical ( opposed to other things already in the game )
It doesn't matter if it was a whole population a Duchy , a Barony or just one courtesan ... As long as its present in game and an event , despite could be rare, the Hellenism shoul dbe possible to be revived and havea a focus task on its own just like other paganist religions... Also you already got things like Immortality quests, Artefacts , Aztecs ... And you want to tell us that Adding Hellenism ( Historically correct ) shouln't be added?

CK2 is a game that is all about "flavour" with a very strong emphasis on role playing. It is a game that pays careful attention to historical accuracy while also allowing for some extremely ahistorical results (eg Norse Caliphates, nomads conquering all of Europe) while also including some downright silly or fantasy elements (Immortality, satanic powers, handguns in the 8th century, AZTECS ffs !). Allowing a player the ability to turn a blue-label base level vanilla placeholder religion like Hellenic or generic Pagan into a fully fleshed out reformed religion does not to me seem like a big ask or even out of the ordinary in any way.

To the argument that there weren't enough adherents in one particular area misses the point entirely - we don't need to know exactly how many people in location "X" were of a certain religion at any given time, just what proportion of the total population was of that religion. Even if just 0.01% of the map's population was Hellenic this would entail that around 2-3 characters in the game should start as that religion, based on the fact that there are around 1400 provinces on the full map, each with a minimum of 3 holdings at start, each with a minimum of 6 characters in each court. I know - I'm ignoring tribal areas, empty nomadic provinces etc, but I am also ignoring the fully fleshed out courts of 30-40 characters for anything of Duchy sized or higher so a figure of 25-30,000 characters in game seems reasonable.

I am not arguing that any particular area should be Hellenic or Druidic (although in the interests of variety and considering how poorly the records are for the early starts this seems reasonable), all I am saying is that if I want to start in province "X", appoint that random resident Hellenic courtier as your Court Tutor and try for a Hellenic revival then why the hell shouldn't I ? I can accept Hindu gift eunuchs into my court and turn England dharmic, I can take Norse or Cuman women as concubines and turn France Germanic or Byzantium Tengri so why shouldn't I be able to revive a local religion of half baked and half remembered traditions and turn it into a religion that can stand alongside Zikri, Paulicianism or Zoroastrianism ?

Seriously people why do anyone else's enjoyment and goals have to make any difference to yours whatsoever ?

Exactly.

 

[Thure]

You miss the point.

1 This is a game and notn an historical essay.
2 You already got a bunchload of unhistorical things ( Aztecs ?)
3 HEllenism is already present ingame ( by modding if not wrong )
4 it takes zero effort to implement
5 it is Historical ( opposed to other things already in the game )
It doesn't matter if it was a whole population a Duchy , a Barony or just one courtesan ... As long as its present in game and an event , despite could be rare, the Hellenism shoul dbe possible to be revived and havea a focus task on its own just like other paganist religions... Also you already got things like Immortality quests, Artefacts , Aztecs ... And you want to tell us that Adding Hellenism ( Historically correct ) shouln't be added?





Exactly.

But it WOULD take effort to implement. It was already in the game but people were complaining they fant features for Hellenics. They want unique events, own mechanics etc.
And Paradox don't want to do this. So they removed it, so people would stop complaining for features they don't want to spend time on.
They don't want to spend development time for a SINGLE courtier/barony.

 

[classicist]

Oh goodness, the old dispute about the fabled Maniot pagans has flared up again... An unquiet grave, it seems. The details for the case opposing the switch in the province's religion have been (again) pointed out very well by many commentators above, but I would just like to add that even though we cannot know almost anything about the practical religiosity of the Maniot locals, it is very unlikely it was anything close to the 'Olympian'/Twelve-gods/Hellenic religion that most commentators have clamoured for. The social base of the supposed 'pagan' vestiges would have been so tenuous and grass-roots (i.e. transhumant pastoralists and subsistence cultivators in a few villages or a single mountain range) that any 'cult' or 'ritual' would have been barely distinguishable from e.g. Slavic folk-customs and habits that coloured local ways of living in many areas of Greece. Yet we wouldn't call those survivials 'religion'.

 

[fr-rein]

I hope that Mali pagan faith gets a bit more content in this context, it was sadly the most generic pagan faith as of now with little to no events and special flavour.

 

[TheDungen]

The problem is that you show as controlling the site if it is in lands that are held by someone below you in the holding chain.

So a site will show as controlled by you if you hold it personally, or one of your vassals, or one of theirs, and so on.

Jerusalem in 867 for example shows as controlled by both the Abbasid Emperor, and the Emir of Jerusalem (and presumably the baron tier Wali, although I can't load as them).

So do you mean the top tier liege of each site should get to pick an aspect?
Or everyone that has the marker that they control a site gets involved?

The reformer gets to pick one. Then yes the top lieges.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

The reformer gets to pick one. Then yes the top lieges.

Got you.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought you meant the holders initially.

That kind of makes sense, but I'd still be worried about the AI screwing up the religion by making "bad" or unwanted choices, or being coded to generally pick the traits associated with the "default" reformation.

Still, it'd make for an interesting mod if it can be coded in and doesn't get into vanilla at some stage.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

You miss the point.

1 This is a game and notn an historical essay.

I'll agree with you here.
On that basis, it's only a game, so let's have all the other functionally dead religions that may have had a couple of hundred worshippers.
Let's have them take other majority mainstream religion provinces.

Whilst we're at it, let's have Atlantis.

2 You already got a bunchload of unhistorical things ( Aztecs ?)

I seem to remember that DLC coming under a lot of fire from some parts of the community for being a waste of time.

3 HEllenism is already present ingame ( by modding if not wrong )

Kind of?
The religion has a name and is associated with the Roman Emperors in the history files.
It has almost no detail

4 it takes zero effort to implement

Except for rewriting so it's reformable, changing the province over, adding in the new characters, giving it events and flavour...

You know, effectively rewriting it from scratch and testing all of the additions.

5 it is Historical ( opposed to other things already in the game )
It doesn't matter if it was a whole population a Duchy , a Barony or just one courtesan ... As long as its present in game and an event , despite could be rare, the Hellenism shoul dbe possible to be revived and havea a focus task on its own just like other paganist religions... Also you already got things like Immortality quests, Artefacts , Aztecs ... And you want to tell us that Adding Hellenism ( Historically correct ) shouln't be added?

Exactly.

Show it was actually Hellenism, and not some random piece of unaffiliated non-Christian folklore.
"Hellene" as a term was applied broadly by the ERE to what we'd call pagan cults.

It wouldn't even cover a barony.
None of the practitioners moved in noble circles (being isolated semi-tribals in the coastal mountains).

 

[Prometheus_1]

I'll agree with you here.
On that basis, it's only a game, so let's have all the other functionally dead religions that may have had a couple of hundred worshippers.
Let's have them take other majority mainstream religion provinces.

Whilst we're at it, let's have Atlantis.

I seem to remember that DLC coming under a lot of fire from some parts of the community for being a waste of time.

Kind of?
The religion has a name and is associated with the Roman Emperors in the history files.
It has almost no detail


Except for rewriting so it's reformable, changing the province over, adding in the new characters, giving it events and flavour...

You know, effectively rewriting it from scratch and testing all of the additions.


Show it was actually Hellenism, and not some random piece of unaffiliated non-Christian folklore.
"Hellene" as a term was applied broadly by the ERE to what we'd call pagan cults.

It wouldn't even cover a barony.
None of the practitioners moved in noble circles (being isolated semi-tribals in the coastal mountains).

Atlantis ?? What are you talking about ...
Sorry but now you seem to trying to climb on slipery soap wet windows by totally neglecting facts.
I don't understand why you oppose the idea because it has no negative impact on anything and as a plus its an historical correction that adds gameplay flavour , the only logic reason why you should oppose , with nonexhistant issues is that you oppose simply for the sake of it .
Also you seem pretty much to ignore who the Mani were and were not semisavage tribals you are describing there....
the Mani peninsula is also not a quite small place Maniots were widespread in Laconia.

a Region that actually is already present in CK II

And even if you do not want to make the whole region as paganism you can simply give it to the Barony of Mani and would be enough .
There are no issues and no reasons to oppose the idea.

 

[Prometheus_1]

But it WOULD take effort to implement. It was already in the game but people were complaining they fant features for Hellenics. They want unique events, own mechanics etc.
And Paradox don't want to do this. So they removed it, so people would stop complaining for features they don't want to spend time on.
They don't want to spend development time for a SINGLE courtier/barony.

Unless you work for PAradox and know things on it you shoulnt claim what Devs what and don't and why . Let them speak for themselves.
As for the Hellenic religion this request comes into the light of the new upcoming expansion that guess what? Focus on the pagan religions as well!