• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
You seem to have missed Divine Blood (and everything associated with it).
Also, the Messalian/Cathar "women can hold all council positions", which annoyingly hasn't been moddable so far.

That is definitely moddable, it's in the scripted_triggers that determine who qualifies for a given position.
 
-Will Polygamy work differently from concubines, and can you still have one or the other?

Polygamy is the multiple wives system currently used by Muslims. The advantage it has over concubinage is that your male relatives can be used to forge 4x as many pacts and should work well in combination with the cosmopolitan nature. Though if you're just marrying lowborns with good genetic traits it might be preferable to keep concubinage.

Awesome changes !
My only regret is that owning TOG will now be pointless, since HF unlocks basically any worthwhile feature of TOG, with improvements...

But I guess it's the problem with DLC features expanding DLC features that expand DLC features : at some point, you have to break every old paywall to get anywhere with the new stuff...

TOG will still be required to play the 867 start date so it's going to still be the viking DLC.

That would mean that most likely there are 12 doctrines.. When you try to solve math equation [6*x*(x-1)*4] then the closest value of x is 12. With 12 as an answer, answer to the equation is 3168. Keeping in mind that few doctrines exclude others, answer also could be x aka number of doctrines =13.

The order in which you pick the doctrines is irrelevant, so that's actually x*(x-1)/2 possible combinations of doctrines, if you do not take into account that some are mutually exclusive. So there should be around 17 doctrines to choose from.

You seem to have missed Divine Blood (and everything associated with it).
Also, the Messalian/Cathar "women can hold all council positions", which annoyingly hasn't been moddable so far.

But that is moddable. Who can become councilor is governed by editable scripted triggers (.../common/scripted_triggers/).

So you're finally working on fixing the bland sameness of the defensive pagans that has been a complaint since Old Gods released...and putting it behind a pay wall. Not cool...

The solution does so much more than just fix the sameness of defensive pagans that having to pay for it is more than justified. Besides, TOG was at it's heart really a viking DLC and the defensive pagans were more of a bonus feature. And PDX added ancestor worship for defensive pagans for free alongside The Reaper's Due.
 
Totally going to mod in Christian reformations.
This would be the best thing ever! It would basically be a "create a heresy" feature.
Holy Fury will not touch heresies, but the new scripting commands that have been added to make the Pagan Reformation work should be usable by modders to make events/decisions around changing the features of an existing religion.
Awesome!
Will it be possible for us to rename the reformed religion?
This would be cool. And rename titles/gods...
pickled herring
Swedes and their pickled herring...
 
Looking forward to this immensely, but I've got one final question that will decide whether or not I get this DLC:
Will we be able to make incestuous religions?
Pick Divine Mariage, that's what is used for Zoroastrianism
 
Will one be able to reform an already reformed religion once again, as in challenging the mainstream via heresy? Or will the decisions taken in the original reformation be set in stone for the whole game?
 
Will it be possible to "override" some of the features/limitations of your current government form by picking specific elements while reforming, like enabling matri-marriages as a Merchant Republic or whatever?
 
Two immediate thoughts that would be fantastic for this system. The first is dynamic heresies, since randomly spawned heresies could use a semi-random set of beliefs when they spawn or give rulers a chance to define them if they're among the first to embrace said heresy. The second is to allow pagans to finally have proper heresies, since this system works well for creating pagan heresies that disagree with the established doctrine or have their own interpretation of the old ways. You could even include special 'heresy' only versions of some of the beliefs that are either objectively worse than normal ones or are directly based on subverting the true faith. These can be things like iconoclasm or insularity, which then mirror actual heretical movements in history and even full shifts in beliefs if they're strong enough for a time.
 
Just curious, but is it possible for the religion to be reformed multiple times. As in you reform it but lose all the sites to followers of the pre-reformed religion, could they then reform it again and create a heresy?
 
the pagan reformations will be patch feature?
i already paid old gods to play as them
I concur, if you look at OG expansion the main selling point was pagans and the rest was just like small little filler stuff. Here is what the paid features of Old Gods offered

DLC features:
  • Non-nomadic Pagans and Zoroastrians become playable.
  • An earlier start date is now available: January 1, 867.
  • Revolts now have leaders.
  • Claimant and duchy-conquest adventurers.
It sucks as in the way it was done wouldn't have made since (fiscally) if HF was made with OD being a prerequisite. But I totally wasn't expecting a previous DLC Main feature to be completely phased out.

If you look at silk road trade routes from Horse Lords & Jade Dragon there wasn't a big fuss about the feature being phased out from HL because silk roads being a paid feature still wasn't THE MAIN feature of that DLC, and that small emphasis is what is causing the fuss here.

By taking away the Main feature from OG the dlc essentially became worthless, even more so than the aztecs.

The way this HF Pagan feature should be implemented is a free HF feature to those who own OG but at the same time as a Paid HF feature to those who just own HF w/o OG.
 
Last edited:
Oh...My...God... Becky... Look at this DLC.. It is sooo big.. I mean its just like.. everything... I mean its just rounded. I mean its just soo.......... Perfect...

No seriously though.... This reformation and retailoring it adds so much role playing and dynamics to pagans, and the game as a whole. It's a feature I never thought of adding honestly, but I'm surprised I didnt, because tailoring religions to kinda RP or change up the game a bit was something I really liked from Civilization games. I can't wait!
 
Why?
It doesn't make any sense.
It does make sense in the same way they did it with like I said HL/JD.

DD#65
As the Silk Road is essential in modeling the importance of China, it will also be unlocked by owning Jade Dragon. Owners of Horse Lords will receive all improvements we’re making, of course.
This Dev Diary however makes it sound like owners of Old Gods are getting nothing but an obsolete DLC where the Main feature was ripped out, hopefully I am mistaken and it is exactly like the HL/JD silk road update whereas reformation will receive the same treatment.
 
Last edited:
I have 2 question :
  1. Apparently, it's the nature who decide if the religion have acces to the "great holy war cb", and the leadership is independant of this. Does that mean that you can have an autocephaly and the great holy war ? And that the Orthodox/Miaphysite will finally have it too ? (god it would be awesome)
  2. Is the new crusade still a great holy war ? And is it possible to have something similar on a pagan religion ?
Love your works guys.
 
Also if anyone is interested we just did a bit of an estimate and it seems like there are around 3000 possible combinations. Our maths might be a bit off though as some doctrines exclude others but either way its quite a few! :)

Edited to be a more accurate number because our programmer can't math.
What?! 3000 possibilities and only 4 examples?! can we get more? :D This is one of the most exciting dlcs in a long time for me!
 
This Dev Diary however makes it sound like owners of Old Gods are getting nothing but an obsolete DLC where the Main feature was ripped out, hopefully I am mistaken and it is exactly like the HL/JD silk road update whereas reformation will receive the same treatment.
Pagan Reformation from HF is a radical improvement over the old feature.
That doesn't seem the case for Silk Road.
 
Polygamy is the multiple wives system currently used by Muslims. The advantage it has over concubinage is that your male relatives can be used to forge 4x as many pacts and should work well in combination with the cosmopolitan nature. Though if you're just marrying lowborns with good genetic traits it might be preferable to keep concubinage.

Yeah I know what Polygamy is, I was just wondering whether it and concubinage have two different doctrines and whether concubinage is even still obtainable by reformed religions or whether it gets replaced by polygamy.
 
Two months ago I moved to another project at PDS. Nothing I can tell you anything about, I'm afraid.
I still follow what's going on with CK2 though, just not as closely as when I was on it.

I hope everything's going great for you on the new project, but I can't help but feel sad. You gave CK2 so much... and your enthusiasm for moddability is a boon to any project you work on.