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CK2 Dev Diary #98 - Catholicism what? Constantinople where? Charlemagne who?

Greetings!

Today I’d like to cover one of the largest features of Holy Fury - a feature we’ve internally dubbed the ‘Alternate Start’ system!

This system consists of two separate sub-features, the Shattered World system and the Random World system. Each of these two systems are aimed towards different players - Shattered World is perfect for those who want a level playing field, while Random World will appeal to those of you that wish to explore an unfamiliar, yet fleshed out world complete with its own history and quirks.

These two features are accessed from either the Era Picker directly, or when choosing bookmarks through Custom Setup. You are free to choose any date to start, and the date you choose can even affect how a setup might look like. Choosing the 867 start date while using the default settings of Random World will tend to produce many more pagans and tribal realms, for example.

EraButtons.png

CustomSelectors.png


The Shattered World system allows you to break the world up into its constituent parts, be it Counties, Duchies or a mix of the two. It provides a balanced start, and allows for a sprawling new world to rise from the tiny disparate realms that start out within it.

ShatteredWorldSettings.png


To provide exactly the type of challenge that you seek, there are numerous parameters that control anything from Holding Slots to Technology.
For those seeking to recreate the world as it was, the Historical settings (which are selected by default) are what you want.
If you desire an entirely level playing field, you can set all provinces to have exactly 3 holding slots, for everyone to be Feudal, for technology to be the same everywhere, for Primogeniture to be the default succession law, and for each character to be exactly 30 years old with three children, OR…
If you just want a crazy game full of surprises, you could set all the parameters to Random or even Full Random. Who knows, maybe you’ll find yourself inhabiting an Iceland that has four 7-slot provinces, as a 65 year old matriarch following a religion based entirely around human sacrifice!
Naturally you’re free to mix and match these settings to your liking, perhaps you’d like a modicum of craziness in your otherwise balanced game? Hopefully you’ll find the settings to you liking!

Some players believe that there’s not enough challenge when starting out in a Shattered World (cough, @Meneth ) so for those of you that desire an opposition that is more than your match, we’ve got a setting for you! The ‘Great Conquerors’ setting allow you to spawn up to twelve special characters evenly across the map. These characters will wield special weapons, carry legendary blood in their veins and use especially powerful CB’s to rapidly conquer land much in the same way you would expect a player to. Naturally you can also choose to not have any Great Conquerors in your game, though I recommend starting with at least four of them!
GreatConqueror.png


Another setting that we have available for those who don’t want to wait around for too long until they can go to war is the ‘Consolidation Casus Belli’ setting. This setting unlocks a generic county conquest CB for everyone, without any particular cost. You can choose to have this CB active for 25 years, 100 years or indefinitely - and you can naturally choose to not have it active at all if you so wish. To avoid confusion, while this CB is active, the Border Dispute CB from Jade Dragon will be temporarily disabled (but return as the Consolidation CB becomes unavailable).

Now, on to the feature of the two which I find the most interesting - Random World!

This feature is truly a treasure trove for those of us who love exploring new and exciting worlds, while still preserving the familiarity of a game which we know and enjoy. With the parameters at hand you can tailor a world that tries to closely mimic the world we know, or you can choose to let it deviate fully!

In Random World you can choose to randomize almost everything; placements, names, functions and graphics of religions, cultures, titles, characters, governments and much more! While Shattered World and Random World do share a subset of settings, Random World undeniably has access to a more granular setup. If you want your game to be analogous to history you can choose to enable features such as ‘Holy Roman Empire’ or ‘Byzantine Empire’, for example - these settings will ensure that, somewhere in the world, something akin to those elements will exist. It won’t necessarily be too familiar though, there might indeed exist a large Elective Empire similar to the HRE - but they might just be located in Africa, adhering to a religion that promotes indiscriminate human sacrifice...

Random World Settings.png


As I mentioned before, at the core of a Random World lies a few main things; a dynamic religion, culture, de jure and ruler setup. Let's start with religion!

Religion is a very central aspect of the game, and thus it wouldn’t be overly exciting to generate a random world where the existing default religions are randomly placed (even though you can choose to do that, and having a Bön pagan Scandinavia or a Catholic India is undeniably fun - no question about that). Depending on the settings you choose, religions will be more or less altered - you can randomize the spread, features, naming and icon of religions. There’s even a way for you to preview religions before starting the game, and if you wish you can even customize their features right there and then!
Random World Religious Customization.png


The culture system is a bit more simplistic simply by the fact that cultures don’t generally have many gameplay features to speak of - in this system it’s mainly about the naming and spread of cultures.
Example Culture Spread.png


The De Jure setup randomization is a fairly sophisticated system. We’ve put a lot of thought and effort in making the resulting borders be as sensible as possible. We’ve for example taken extra care to ensure that the De Jure doesn’t jump wildly between islands, or seem generally disconnected or ‘snakey’. It generally provides an appropriate challenge when you wish to form a Kingdom or Empire!
Random World De Jure Kingdoms.png


The spread and placement of Governments can also be randomized. After all, why should nomads be limited to the steppe, and what’s saying that Europe should be high-tech and fully feudalized? I can tell you that it’s quite an experience playing a Nomad in Italy!
Random World Governments.png


Technology will naturally be randomized as well. The ‘baseline’ will depend on the year you choose to create your Random World in, the earlier, the less technology overall.

Now, here’s a few examples of Random Worlds, using an assortment of different settings!

This random World is generated with a generous amount of Dukes and Kings - this means that there are going to exist many more unified realms upon generation. A plethora of smaller kingdoms surround the centerpiece - an HRE inspired realm following a religion focused wholly on self-fulfilment without any formal leadership.
Random World Example 1.png


This world keeps most everything ‘historical’, except for the government and De Jure setup. The French nomads are of particular interest.
Random World Example 2 - Historical Cultures and Religions.png


This Random World I had to share for one very specific reason. At its core, it’s a nice and interesting world with several scattered kingdoms, and a major empire in North Africa keeping the peace. If you haven’t figured it out by your own yet - the random names are by-and-large based upon names from cultural namelists and dynasties, which in certain cases result in very fun names.
Example3.png


Persia has a very distinct religion, with very fitting features to boot.
memelard.png


And here’s one final Random World - a large Sacrosanct Empire looms in northern Russia and the polar circle, blocking the western tribes off from reaching the civilized east. In Europe many different faiths vie for dominance, from the unyielding and adventurous Dulanites in the Spanish region to the warmongering but syncretic Cult of Jahaira in the German region and beyond.
Example4.png


Worth noting is that I’ve not been able to cover all of the various settings that these features will have. There’s plenty of granularity, and you’ll be able to control most things in minute detail should you wish to do so. I encourage you to experiment with the settings! You never know what you might find...

We hope that these features will provide you with hours of entertainment, and that you get to generate the world that you wish to play in the most!
 

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If you compare the alternate icon strip to the original you can notice a few things since all alternate religions kind of mirror the original ones. Bön is becoming reformable, therefore it'll have 3 icons instead of 2. This was mentioned in the reformation dev diary...

But what's more interesting is the 3 stars religion. The unreformed version of it matches hellenic, yet the reformed and unreformed ones match ones that aren't in the current patch, probably meaning that the devs added hellenic reformed and its heresy for modders, similarly to ares' own.
That's interesting. I think it was mentioned that random religions based on the existing ones, that's why we can't change leadership in generation screen. So we could get a new pagan religion, but i doubt it's hellenic. What could it be in that time period?
 
So a query on this given the religion generation aspect of things for the Random world. Would it be possible to also create a function in the game to form NEW religions? Like say just for examples, a Faith centered on the great Cthulhuian old ones, or say an actual Faith of Satan?

Also, will random worlds be able to be exported over to EU4?
 
You can convert games run using Random/Shattered World, though the system isn't really built around supporting it. It will work flawlessly when using historical cultures/religions, but if you're not it'll revert them back to their vanilla equivalent in EU4.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!


More seriously, is there a way you guys could fix that? I'd love to be able to port games like that over into EU4 with the randomized religions.
 
Now this is the kind of DLC you want out of a game! Features that you didn't even know you wanted until they are introduced, and ones that are totally not base-game material!
So with this mod I can play any faith in the game? This seems like it invalidates the paywalls of Sword of Islam and Old Gods.
 
That's interesting. I think it was mentioned that random religions based on the existing ones, that's why we can't change leadership in generation screen. So we could get a new pagan religion, but i doubt it's hellenic. What could it be in that time period?

Apprarently Paganism was still strong in the southern Caucasus up until early modern times. So it'd be cool to see that included.
 
Why? If it's a random world, the different races could have ended up anywhere.
Yeah, I don't think that's how natural selection works. There is a reason for lower and higher melanin in one's skin depending on the area of origin, same with other distinctive features. We are not special, we are animals as well, evolutionary processes apply to us. If in reality Somalis in Scandinavia have to get vitamin D supplements to prevent health troubles or albinos in Africa (imagine some poor pale Fin) in the hot searing African desert get skin cancer in enormously high rates in comparison to their melanin-rich cousins, I really have doubts about your "theory" about races ending up wherever, especially in the middle ages. Human biology adapts and is adapted to a certain environment, it's not just a random happy chance so we all look like a bag of skittles for the lulz.
And yet, white people in equatorial Africa and Indians in Scandinavia haven't suddenly switched skin tones :thinking:

Environment plays a role in the relationships of genetics, and generally people will darken nearer the equator and lighten nearer the poles. But these are adaptations over millennia of genetic inheritance and change, and who knows how long people have settled into their regions in random worlds. Or if they've been settled for a while, and received a lot of outside genetic influence. Or any number of reasons.
I think you don't completely understand evolution by natural selection. People don't darken or lighten in a specific environment on individual basis. You can move a black bear to the Arctic, its fur won't "adapt" to its environment by some random miracle. The individuals with traits that hinder their chances at survival in any way don't reproduce as much as those that posses traits that do help them survive in a certain environment. That's how different beings emerged in the first place, that's why we have such a variety. Evolution is a cruel process, it lefts the majority behind. And the reason why there are no originally white skinned people living in sub-saharan Africa or black-skinned folks in Europe is that if a mutation that by some chance gave a fellow in Mali whiter skin is a going to lower the chances this gene's passing because his chances of dying by cancer for example are higher. In generations natural selection weeds out the useless and often undesirable genes for a specific environment.

People in the middle ages didn't cross continents en masse to make a significant genetic impact on the native population, that just didn't happen. The only such "exodus" that comes to mind is the case of Jews being exiled all over the world. And if you look at today's Israel, its population is Jewish, however the individuals themselves resemble their country of origin's ethnic background.
 
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They do. On Earth, our Earth, the Basques are the last surviving aboriginal inhabitants of Europe from before the India-European invasion. Their language is a language isolate, the last of it's kind, from when a non-indo-European continent of Europe existed.


Other than the Basques, all of the other ethnic groups in Europe migrated in from populations outside Europe.


Sami and Soumi migrated in about 10,000 years ago from ancestral homelands East of the Urals. Indo-Europeans (Celts, Slavs, Germanics, Latins, Balts, etc.) migrated in starting around ~3,500 B.C. from ancestral homelands just west of the Urals. Other groups (Huns, Bulghars, etc., migrated into Europe even later.)


But of all of the peoples who originally inhabited the continent of Europe, only the Basques remain.


So, yes, entire populations do disappear without a trace.

No. Not in this case.

There were three main waves of migration.
The first wave were first homo sapiens who arrived in Europe. The second wave, the first farmers, came from Anatolia most likely, and they brought agriculture with them. Indo-Europeans from Pontic Steppe were a third wave, and they brought horses. With exception of first wave which replaced Neanderthals, those waves did not outright exterminate those who lived there before.
Basques are mostly hybrids of first and second wave, with much lesser amount of admixture from third compared to their neighbours.

Bulgars and Hungarians came from the steppe relatively recently, but they don't look that different from their neighbours. They look European, not Central Asian. Same for Basques. They're not significantly genetically different from French and Spaniards. That's because those steppe invaders didn't kill of all locals, they interbred with them. Neither did Romans exterminate Tartessians or Etrurians, they made them adopt their language and culture, but they didn't kill them off or replaced them genetically. The "traces" of first and second europeans are all around europe. Estonians for example, are about 30% first wave.
Basques might have less genetic admixture from original proto-indo-europeans than their neighbours, but they're only marginally different from rest of Europeans.
 
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I think you don't completely understand evolution by natural selection. People don't darken or lighten in a specific environment on individual basis. You can move a black bear to the Arctic, its fur won't "adapt" to its environment by some random miracle. The individuals with traits that hinder their chances at survival in any way don't reproduce as much as those that posses traits that do help them survive in a certain environment. That's how different beings emerged in the first place, that's why we have such a variety. Evolution is a cruel process, it lefts the majority behind. And the reason why there are no originally white skinned people living in sub-saharan Africa or black-skinned folks in Europe is that if a mutation that by some chance gave a fellow in Mali whiter skin is a going to lower the chances this gene's passing because his chances of dying by cancer for example are higher. In generations natural selection weeds out the useless and often undesirable genes for a specific environment.

They do and it's called tanning :p

But seriously though as I understand it current research suggests that most creatures have some degree of in-built adaptivity to various factors and these can be passed on to their children (especially things like threat identification; I imagine gene-lines more able to quickly adapt to new threats survive more, but I think it still applies to things like responses to environmental stimuli - disease resistances, tanning etc. - too).

But yeah, while having things like portraits local to the same regions even with alt. history would probably be more realistic, having them be more varied would probably be a fun option for people who aren't as concerned with realism (if we're considering realism, I think the fact that you can get steppe-based cavalry empires appearing exclusively in, say, Scandinavia and Britain is probably not less realistic, but you can still do that in the interest of fun). Personally I'd like to see it as one of those optional features you can customise about your random world for that reason.
 
No. Not in this case.

There were three main waves of migration.
The first wave were first homo sapiens who arrived in Europe. The second wave, the first farmers, came from Anatolia most likely, and they brought agriculture with them. Indo-Europeans from Pontic Steppe were a third wave, and they brought horses. With exception of first wave which replaced Neanderthals, those waves did not outright exterminate those who lived there before.
Basques are mostly hybrids of first and second wave, with much lesser amount of admixture from third compared to their neighbours.

Bulgars and Hungarians came from the steppe relatively recently, but they don't look that different from their neighbours. They look European, not Central Asian. Same for Basques. They're not significantly genetically different from French and Spaniards. That's because those steppe invaders didn't kill of all locals, they interbred with them. Neither did Romans exterminate Tartessians or Etrurians, they made them adopt their language and culture, but they didn't kill them off or replaced them genetically. The "traces" of first and second europeans are all around europe. Estonians for example, are about 30% first wave.
Basques might have less genetic admixture from original proto-indo-europeans than their neighbours, but they're only marginally different from rest of Europeans.



That's an interesting article on the Basques. Thanks for the link.


I think we're agreeing on the facts, but interpreting those facts through a different lens.


In the article you linked, it talks about how Basque is a language isolate, and how genetically they're a mix from the first hunter-gatherer wave and the second farmer wave... from when the entire continent of Europe was populated first by hunter-gatherers, and then populated by farmers mixed to varying degrees with the pre-existing hunter-gatherers. Okay.. so those are facts we can agree on.


If you were one of those hunter-gatherers, from an entire continent of hunter-gatherers, with dozens of inter-related languages and shared customs... then the Europe of 2018 would look like everything and everyone you'd ever known had been wiped out without a trace. Knowing that some populations still shared around 30% of your genes probably wouldn't affect your impression of the entire continental culture having been erased and replaced.


Again, thanks for the link. I'm not disputing the facts you shared, just the interpretation.
 
So, what about combing the early Orthodox and Catholics into 'Chalcedonian'? Or, at least, renaming them at the start to something like 'Latin Churches' and 'Greek Churches.'

@Snow Crystal

@rageair
I've noticed a lot of suggestions/complaints about pre-schism (1054) Orthodox and Catholic Christianities nonetheless being separated and there actually be a "mend schism" event. This topic deserves its own thread, so I'm going to pontificate (pun intended) there.
 
Y'all. Is it really worth getting angry over? We're talking about a fantasy world where it's completely possible to have a Zunist analogue to the HRE, which doesn't make a whole lot of historical sense for a variety of reasons. Can we just accept that in fantasy worlds historic migration patterns may just not matter that much?
 
In the Random world CK2 depicts, it's possible that a tribe of Blacks could have ended up settling Russia and expelling the local White people, or Whites could have gone into Africa, or anything else. (I'll let you in on a secret: mass movements of people have happened in reality.)

The mass migration in this case would have happened in prehistoric times... back when all the other migrations were happening.

If Pdx will do changes in deep prehistory - why not living Denisovians? Why end of Ice Age must be? Why not lack migration horses from America to Eurasia and extinction specie? Why not lack expansion of Sahara?

We should limit ourselves only to historical times. Ofc, there was mass migrations of people type A to region with peoples type B (eg. Celts, Oromo). But with mas migration native Africans to eg. Great Steppe is few problems. Basis - geographical determinism. Eg. we know, that civilization birth on Great Rivers. Old-Egyptians was skin similar to others peoples of southern lands. Could eg. people of Kush conquered Egypt and dominate demographically there, before the Pharaoh State becomes too powerful and stable? Yes. But Egyptian civilization was too much connected with Nile, therefore they wasn't too expansionistic in culture or demography. Egypt by long time had control on Levant, but Levant always had Canaanite, Phoenician, Hebrew and others cultures. "Egyptialization" hadn't place, even the Egyptian settlement was very poor. Therefore also "Black Civilization on Nile" should had similar nature. So settlement on Nile will be last, north station for native Africans. Migration to to India? No chances - native Africans hadn't naval traditions, so lack good boats, naval logistic etc. needed to migration by sea. Migration to Arabia Felix? Yes, but next we have Arabian Desert - natural barier. Change of the type of culture to the desert type this need many generations and next possible expansion will be possible in scenarios similar like IRL with Arabs. Other powers must be in crisis and new people must have religion/ideology, gaining ruler over souls, minds and hearts (like was with islam IRL). But even Arabs hadn't powers to march to north Europe.

So even in those two scenarios - native Africans shouldn't go to eg. Great Steppe, north Europe or Tibet.

Geographical determinants aren't do ignored.
 
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I'll raise you one better. Why is Constantinople?

Seriously though the CK2 dev team are the only team I trust to put full effort into making DLC worth it. You guys have basically created a fantasy world generator.
 
Although it would be pretty neat to see a random world where cultures and governments rely on the terrain or there are some changes to landmass like the black sea being dry people need to stop complaining about this being historically inaccurate. The devs will probably add a feature allowing you edit a culture or religion. If you really want to complain about people's skin colour ruining the game just go into the savefile and find a way to change graphical culture. The whole point of this is add some more playable time to the game. Hell I bet most people would love to be given some random world map and try and make lore out of it. How cool would an alpine feudal empire be holding back the kingdoms and republics in the Mediterranean and Africa from nomads in France and Germany? Or to have vikings in Italy raid the rest of the weak Mediterranean with no major Empire to stop it?
 
They do. On Earth, our Earth, the Basques are the last surviving aboriginal inhabitants of Europe from before the India-European invasion. Their language is a language isolate, the last of it's kind, from when a non-indo-European continent of Europe existed.


Other than the Basques, all of the other ethnic groups in Europe migrated in from populations outside Europe.


Sami and Soumi migrated in about 10,000 years ago from ancestral homelands East of the Urals. Indo-Europeans (Celts, Slavs, Germanics, Latins, Balts, etc.) migrated in starting around ~3,500 B.C. from ancestral homelands just west of the Urals. Other groups (Huns, Bulghars, etc., migrated into Europe even later.)


But of all of the peoples who originally inhabited the continent of Europe, only the Basques remain.


So, yes, entire populations do disappear without a trace.

Mate, no linguist/historian/archaeologist/anthropologist thinks in the 21th century that the Finno-Ugric homeland was in Asia. The main theory in modern books places it in the centre of the Volga river area. Some place it in Southern-Ukraine, but the most reputable theory written everywhere says the middle of the Volga river area.

Finno-Ugrians are the native inhabitants of Northern- and Eastern-Europe. Estonia and Finland both being the boggiest/marshiest areas in the entire world is a good reason why they still speak a native Finno-Ugric language. The Basques are the native inhabitants of Western-Europe.
 
@rageair I have a question after rereading the diary. You say that you could end up with an Iceland that has four provinces with seven slots each — does that mean the county borders can be randomized? Or did you just mean de jure Iceland could have provinces not on Iceland proper?
 
@rageair I have a question after rereading the diary. You say that you could end up with an Iceland that has four provinces with seven slots each — does that mean the county borders can be randomized? Or did you just mean de jure Iceland could have provinces not on Iceland proper?

Iceland is getting two extra provinces in the next patch.