Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries
Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Crusader Kings III 21060 Console 365 Suggestions 6371 Bug Report 5033 Tech Support 2665 User Mods 1983 Multiplayer 171 AARs (After Action Reports) MP Open Beta Feedback 27
Previous dev diary Next dev diary
Show only dev responses

CK3 - Dev Diary #23 - Holy Orders

Hello everyone, I’m back with some spicy information about Holy Orders in Crusader Kings III!

Let’s start off with some general information: a Holy Order is an independent military organization that fights to defend and expand the influence of their faith; their first and foremost loyalty in the game will be to their god/s. If you read the earlier dev diary about mercenaries you will notice that Holy Orders have a lot in common with them: succession, being a Title with a Court, etc. However, unlike mercenaries the members have dedicated their lives to a higher purpose than that of the pursuit of gold. Very noble!

grandmaster.png


Much like in CK2 you will be able to hire Holy Orders to help you out in religious wars, but unlike in CK2 they will fight all enemies once hired. A thing to keep in mind, however, is that Holy Orders are dismissed as soon as you’re no longer at war with someone of another faith, so make sure to really time those wars right!

military_view.png


Aside from ordinary levies a Holy Order also has a number of MaA regiments that are special for Holy Orders (based on Religion and not Faith), e.g. “Order Knights”. These regiments will work as regular MaAs and have a type, specified terrain effects, etc. They are truly a force fighting for the good of your faith! Or, of course, a scary opponent to face on the battlefield...

You can only ever hire a single Holy Order, but if you are the patron of an order (more on this further down) it costs nothing to rope them into your religious conflicts. Ha, who needs mercenaries? And, unlike mercenaries, they will stick around with no time limit; no 3-year contracts!

If you are a King or an Emperor, and have a pile of gold and a big chunk of piety, you can found a new Holy Order in your realm by leasing a valid Holding (Castle or City) to the order.

holy_order_founded.png


This initial Holding granted to the Holy Order will be the basis for the Holy Order’s Levies and Taxes – their Headquarters if you will. You can only create one Holy Order, but you can still end up being the patron of several, for example by taking over land where a Holy Order of your faith has their Headquarters.

The Headquarters is the stronghold of the Holy Order, and the first King or Emperor upwards in the liege hierarchy is their formal patron, i.e. the one that can use them for free in wars. The patron must, of course, be of the same faith as the Holy Order. However, if there is no ruler of sufficient rank around to patron the Holy Order it is self-sufficient enough to still function!

county_view.png


If a Holy Order’s Headquarters is lost another Holding will be selected to fill the role, with a preference for Holdings within the current patron’s realm. But, if the Holy Order has no more holdings the Holy Order is disbanded. Keeping this in mind it’s understandable that the Grandmaster/Grandmistress will take all opportunities they see to get hold of more land…

After founding a Holy Order you might see some events, much like in Ck2, where the order can gain more Holdings in many Realms. And yes, these events do often involve loans and threats of godly wrath.

repay_loan.png


The Holy Order can also try to expand their forces if they spy a fitting candidate. After all, it is hard to fight heretics without enough warriors!

request_child.png


However, we all know that Holy Orders also have a secondary function: to stash your worthless fourth son somewhere where he can’t cause any trouble. You can ask almost all your courtiers to take vows, and depending on your gender doctrines, and the existence of a Holy Order in your faith, they will either be sent to fight for your faith or to become part of the clergy.

ask_take_vows.png


If you no longer see the need to keep a Holy Order around, or if you really need that Holding for something else, you can revoke a Holy Order’s lease to kick them from your land. This will, of course, make both the Grandmaster/Grandmistress and the Head of Faith (if one exists) less than pleased with you.

I hope you are as excited as I am to see Holy Orders in the game! Or, I’m excited to see them crop up in my faith, not my enemies’... Anyhow, that’s all I have for now. Thank you for reading!

Next week we will continue the religious theme; stay tuned for both heresies and doctrines!
 
Last edited:
  • 12Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Sort by date Sort by reaction score
Xenrek said:
How powerful are they aimed to be, compared to a noble of the same rank/holdings; and what kind of interactions can they have with a weaker/smaller liege?

Just wondering for instance; what downside is there to simply granting all land won in war to the order to avoid having too many/any at all dynastic/feudal vassals?
Click to expand...
Based on previous diaries, I suspect that you only get money (and probably not much) from Holy Order vassals unless you raise them. And if they don't like you, you probably don't even get the money. So if you are mostly fighting religious enemies you are probably okay to give the Holy Order a bunch of land, but if you might end up in a war against a non-hostile-religion neighbor who is about your size you should ensure that you have a good mix of feudal vassals.
 
Will the AI seek to create Holy Orders? For instance, if I'm an emperor with 3 kings and I'm rolling out "the Gospel of Partying, 2nd edition", will my kings create more Party Orders in their lands to protect them from 1e purists? Will only the more zealous characters seek to create HOs? Or is it a "target of opportunity" that will almost never happen because the AI doesn't save up for it?
 
Heptopus said:
but unlike in CK2 they will fight all enemies once hired
Click to expand...
This seems pretty immersion-breaking, what was the reasoning for this change? In CK2 it felt like the distinction between mercenaries and holy orders was mercs were motivated only by money, whereas holy orders had morals they stuck to; this seems to throw that difference out the window.

Everything else looks good though, excited to create my own especially as a custom religion.
 
DeinonychusTaco said:
This seems pretty immersion-breaking, what was the reasoning for this change? In CK2 it felt like the distinction between mercenaries and holy orders was mercs were motivated only by money, whereas holy orders had morals they stuck to; this seems to throw that difference out the window.

Everything else looks good though, excited to create my own especially as a custom religion.
Click to expand...
It did create a few weird situations where you would march with your army accompanied by holy order knights and suddenly an enemy with a smaller force would attack you because they knew the holy order troops would just stand by and watch, which doesn't sound very realistic. My only hope is they will add something to avoid this being too exploitable.
 
Will you be able to use a holy order when trying to take down an excommunicated ruler ?
 
Since you said that a king, or emperor, can make a holy order, does that mean we will finally see more than one holy order, for non-abrahamic faiths? Also, will holy orders be subject to the religion that they are created under? Like, if someone creates a heresy, and wants to create a holy order, will that holy order be stuck to that heresy?
 
Danir said:
would attack you because they knew the holy order troops would just stand by and watch, which doesn't sound very realistic
Click to expand...
On the contrary, I think that's more realistic than a catholic force attacking you + the knights hospitaller, and said holy order just shrugging and deciding to mace some good christians in the face because, well, they started it or something. If you need a divine cause -- punish the heathens -- to hire a holy order in the first place, it seems clear to me that the members of that holy order shouldn't be willing to engage in combat that's clearly outside that cause, whether that's fighting in another concurrent war you have, or suppressing rebels (of your religion) from your own citizenry.

It doesn't make a huge difference, really, it's just something I'm going to frown at. Maybe an ideal spot for a game rule, too.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Will all the historical Holy Orders be in the game?

Will they be able to create their own Stae, just like the Teutonic Order did in CK2 and in real life?

And I also question them being able to fight ALL your enemies once hired, they should fight only heretics and heathens like in CK2, that made an important distinction between them and mercenaries.

And lastly, will we be able to play as Holy Orders, or at least swear fealty to them?
 
Cool stuff, yet i have to ask again for a minor change i requested before:

Call knights in the military screen NOTABLE KNIGHTS instead. It's one single word yet stops me -and possibly other people, too - from having an aneurism. You also don't have the issue of the screen saying theres 300 knights and "oh yeah btw theres also 2 knights"...

PLEASE

EDIT: This is especially important for holy orders which had way higher percentages of knights seeing the fields.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Wow will try then to create a holy order full of Amazons after i have created a faith based in a true CK style. Could depending on the doctirines i have choosen for my faith, for example lustful and others the people in a holy order could still get married and have kids, but they would always stay then in the order if they do not travel or get invited to other courts`?
 
DeinonychusTaco said:
On the contrary, I think that's more realistic than a catholic force attacking you + the knights hospitaller, and said holy order just shrugging and deciding to mace some good christians in the face because, well, they started it or something. If you need a divine cause -- punish the heathens -- to hire a holy order in the first place, it seems clear to me that the members of that holy order shouldn't be willing to engage in combat that's clearly outside that cause, whether that's fighting in another concurrent war you have, or suppressing rebels (of your religion) from your own citizenry.

It doesn't make a huge difference, really, it's just something I'm going to frown at. Maybe an ideal spot for a game rule, too.
Click to expand...
Well I have to disagree, imagine you are a knight hospitaler called to help defend a fellow christian and are en route to face the heathens, when another christian army approaches your army wanting to take advantage of the rulers war with the heathens instead of justly aiding his defense against the heathens ! Personally it would perhaps make sense if they aided you only in case it was a deffensive battle, because this whole idea falls apart once you are the aggressor. Having a game rule wouldn't certainly hurt though.

EDIT: My bad, I misread your post, I certainly agree that using them in an offensive manner against fellow catholics is proposterous.
 
Last edited:
Aaron_S said:
Cool stuff, yet i have to ask again for a minor change i requested before:

Call knights in the military screen NOTABLE KNIGHTS instead. It's one single word yet stops me -and possibly other people, too - from having an aneurism. You also don't have the issue of the screen saying theres 300 knights and "oh yeah btw theres also 2 knights"...

PLEASE
Click to expand...
Knights are, by definition, notable. They are granted their knighthood for special services to their liege. Those "300 knights" are Men at Arms, who are not knights. But I agree that it might be a bit confusing in case of the holy orders because their MaAs are named "Order Knights".
 
Aaron_S said:
Cool stuff, yet i have to ask again for a minor change i requested before:

Call knights in the military screen NOTABLE KNIGHTS instead. It's one single word yet stops me -and possibly other people, too - from having an aneurism. You also don't have the issue of the screen saying theres 300 knights and "oh yeah btw theres also 2 knights"...

PLEASE
Click to expand...
Distinguishing between notable knights (or some other name) and normal knights could actually be a nice way to prevent knight numbers being ahistorically low, which from what we have seen so far seems to be the case at the moment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back