CK3 - Dev Diary #23 - Holy Orders

[Rockphed]

Does somebody know if we will be able to play as clergy in CKIII? That was something that many people was asking in CKII but wasn't posible for code problems. So have this changed?

I believe that the current engine does not support playing as theocracies.

 

[Ridixo]

I believe that the current engine does not support playing as theocracies.

Yeah, think it was the problem in CKII. Since the question just pop-up in my mind i made it to see if someone knew something. Thanks

 

[the glory of plain]

Every faith can have their own Holy Orders, yes. Most Kings/Emperors will not found one since it will be fairly costly, but a faith can hypothetically end up with a bunch!

We pre-script the names for faiths and religions (Christian Holy Orders have, among others: Knights of the Chalice, Guardians of the Shroud, and Knights Hospitaller), and if they run out the order will be named after the barony you lease to them.

Custom faith can absolutely create their own Holy orders!

maybe there should be some other factor to limit the number of holy orders?
since money will not be an issue in late game and it will be weird to see every kingdom have at least one holy order
such as control at least one holy site

 

[ulix]

Does somebody know if we will be able to play as clergy in CKIII? That was something that many people was asking in CKII but wasn't posible for code problems. So have this changed?

I would guess that it's at least moddable this time around, but won't be in the base game.

 

[Rubidium]

Yet nothing says in there that Orders aided european powers in their political fights against other european (and christian) powers.

You might want to look up the Teutonic Knights and their struggles with the post-conversion Poles, etc., to say nothing of the Orthodox.

And the Iberian orders in particular were used frequently in the struggles between the various Iberian Christian kingdoms and the various civil wars within those kingdoms. Even the Hospitallers/Templars were firmly enmeshed in the political struggles within the various Crusader states.

Holy Orders were nominally zealous Christians sworn to defend Christendom against its enemies, but in practice the definition of "enemy" was often loose. An insufficiently pious (as they defined it) Christian ruler could certainly be considered to be one if they desired it, and they certainly wouldn't have stood aside as the army accompanying them was attacked, no matter who the attacker was (unsurprisingly, as standing aside like that was difficult for any medieval army to do, and its unlikely the attackers would have honored their neutrality anyway once the battle joined).

If we extend to the CK2 Assassins and Jomsvikings (which were used as the orders for Shia and Germanic paganism), they mostly fought other members of the same religion (the Jomsvikings actually mostly ended up fighting in alliance with Christians against their fellow Norse pagans, but that's a separate issue).

That said, I suspect a lot of it is just to avoid the issues with troop numbers being misleading (which also caused AI problems, as it would sometimes fail to take into account the holy orders and their restrictions when making calculations).

 

[Mrop]

Am I blind or does the DD not mention what it costs to hire a holy order? Just that it.s free if you are the patron.

They cost Piety.

When creating a new Holy Order, how is the name decided? Can you customize the name as founder or patron?

You cannot choose their names, it is picked from a pool of historical ones, and if they run out one is generated.

-> Can holy orders still control holdings in multiple realms? If yes, what's in it for kings/emperors who don't control their headquarters and are therefore not their patron?

Yes, they can be spread out across multiple lands. I don't recall exactly, but you do get a bonus for giving them a Holding

What stop everyone to have dozens of Holy Orders? Since any king and emperor can create one.

A Patron of a Holy Order cannot create a new one.

Does somebody know if we will be able to play as clergy in CKIII? That was something that many people was asking in CKII but wasn't posible for code problems. So have this changed?

No, Clergy/Theocracies are not playable

 

[DSet]

Not sure I like only having one holy order per King/Emperor, it feels a little arbitrary. I'd prefer one per de jure Kingdom or something like that. To balance it, make them very interested in taking part in politics (like their real life counterparts often did, holy or not).

 

[Lordy's]

1. Are there restrictions to sending your children to holy orders if you have gavelkind succession?

2. Which succession law do holy orders use?

3. Why did you decide to let Holy Orders fight non religious enemies of yours as well without any penalties?

Honestly, I really do not like that decision. It seems to be a step down from CK2. Also, if I read it correctly, you can hire them for free (assuming you are the patron), pay no upkeep and keep them as long as you are at war with someone of a different religion? You cannot allow players to do that. We will simply declare a war against a heathen, keep it going forever and use the holy order troops to fight our neighbours. That cannot be indented! Holy orders should not just be significantly better (=free) mercs.

So here is my suggestion to fix that. I assume that there is a reason why you want holy orders to be able to fight non-religious enemies, so I take that into consideration:
Holy Orders are given a little bit of autonomy. That means, that the grandmaster is allowed to cancel the contract, if he believes that his fighting is not just or there are more important things to do. How to implement it? Upon employing the order, an event is triggered once every year (or some other amount of time). The event allows the grandmaster to abandon you. There are two reasons for him to do so. The first is that there is someone else of your religion who is also in a holy war and needs/deserves the help more than you do. So wars that contest a holy site are given priority, especially if they are defensive. If the order has fought on your side for a long time or if you have a numerical advantage over your enemies, the order should be more likely to leave. The second reason for them to abandon you is that you used them to fight people of your religion/accepted religions a lot (and there is a 'more important' war going on).

 

[Jaakvi]

However, we all know that Holy Orders also have a secondary function: to stash your worthless fourth son somewhere where he can’t cause any trouble. You can ask almost all your courtiers to take vows, and depending on your gender doctrines, and the existence of a Holy Order in your faith, they will either be sent to fight for your faith or to become part of the clergy.

Can you ask your current heir to take the vows? I'm pretty sure that's not allowed in CK2.

 

[Razmorg]

I'd love to learn how they were historically. From the little I know of the crusades it really seems like it was an opportunistic way to channel religious fervor and while they would try to do what they were set out to do there were a lot of departure from it. "Outbreaks of fighting between crusaders and Byzantine forces were common, and the mistrust and suspicion of their intentions grew. It was a troublesome relationship that only got worse, and the ill-feeling and mutual distrust between east and west would rumble on and culminate in the sacking of Constantinople in 1204 CE." Like how would you model this?

I dislike the feeling of going into a random religious war only to pull them into a completely unrelated one by proxy but maybe it's hard to avoid at the same time, I'd love to have that whole infighting vs the Byzantines somehow in.

 

[Zhetone]

please reverse the change made that allows them to fight in all wars. it will be a massive exploit of the mechanic and people will game it very easily

 

[nmcj1996]

Is there any discount for hiring them if you are in a defensive war against religious enemies?

Also are there any events for the creation of historical holy orders?

 

[NilsFabian]

I believe that the current engine does not support playing as theocracies.

If not now a future DLC expanding, revamping the religion system might allow for that.

 

[uncle sia]

nice i guess?im really looking forward to see how modding community gonna work with the whole holy order mechanic because i believe some things arent quite right in there,for example the templars werent like that to just have levies and some "order knights" alongside them,first of all orders such as templars didnt levy simple peasants to fight for them,as most of you would know they recruited people as initiates which were training to become knights and they were equipped with a certain set of gear which was equal to the usual man-at-arms gear so logically they must be stronger than some poor peasants and its worth noting that they had various roles such as swordsmanship,spearmanshi and archery,also what exactly are the order kinghts?are they infantry?are they cavarly?or both of them somehow mixed inside a regiment?

 

[Rockphed]

please reverse the change made that allows them to fight in all wars. it will be a massive exploit of the mechanic and people will game it very easily

Yes, people will game it, but the AI and combat stuff will be much easier to understand. Do you know how many threads were made in the CKII section because AI armies would drag their non-beligerant allies into a battle and crush players? The "You must be fighting a religious war to hire or maintain a Holy Order" and "you can only hire one Holy Order at a time" caveats will do more to keep holy orders from being used in stupid ways than the CK2 rules.

Question for the devs: do the troops a holy order can raise grow when they have more holdings?

 

[Lordy's]

Yes, people will game it, but the AI and combat stuff will be much easier to understand. Do you know how many threads were made in the CKII section because AI armies would drag their non-beligerant allies into a battle and crush players? The "You must be fighting a religious war to hire or maintain a Holy Order" and "you can only hire one Holy Order at a time" caveats will do more to keep holy orders from being used in stupid ways than the CK2 rules.

Question for the devs: do the troops a holy order can raise grow when they have more holdings?

I think that the solution to that is that the grandmaster should complain, if he has to fight your other battles and might eventually decide to abandon you. That way the numbers are correctly displayed, but you cannot cheese it to an unbelievable extend.

 

[LizardCommander]

Yeah, its nice and all, but what we've really been waiting for is when will the Aztec invade in CK3?

 

[VenetianPriest]

Is there a triggering event that enables Holy Orders to be created, either by the player or the AI?

 

[Jorlem]

After founding a Holy Order you might see some events, much like in Ck2, where the order can gain more Holdings in many Realms. And yes, these events do often involve loans and threats of godly wrath.

Will these sorts of events also trigger if you use them in a war with people of your religion? I'd imagine that the head of the Holy Order would not be too happy about that.

 

[Serenity84]

Knights are, by definition, notable

It depends. Initially yes, but with more and more knights being created their uniqueness wore off. Later on there were tons of them. By the late middle ages many knights couldn't afford the lifestyle usually associated with them. In addition to the numbers that had a lot to do with the general economic changes and and an overall increase in population.
Their military importance also declined drastically as regular foot troops (especially pikemen) became more capable and rulers relied increasingly on well trained mercenaries.