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CK3 - Dev Diary #23 - Holy Orders

Hello everyone, I’m back with some spicy information about Holy Orders in Crusader Kings III!

Let’s start off with some general information: a Holy Order is an independent military organization that fights to defend and expand the influence of their faith; their first and foremost loyalty in the game will be to their god/s. If you read the earlier dev diary about mercenaries you will notice that Holy Orders have a lot in common with them: succession, being a Title with a Court, etc. However, unlike mercenaries the members have dedicated their lives to a higher purpose than that of the pursuit of gold. Very noble!

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Much like in CK2 you will be able to hire Holy Orders to help you out in religious wars, but unlike in CK2 they will fight all enemies once hired. A thing to keep in mind, however, is that Holy Orders are dismissed as soon as you’re no longer at war with someone of another faith, so make sure to really time those wars right!

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Aside from ordinary levies a Holy Order also has a number of MaA regiments that are special for Holy Orders (based on Religion and not Faith), e.g. “Order Knights”. These regiments will work as regular MaAs and have a type, specified terrain effects, etc. They are truly a force fighting for the good of your faith! Or, of course, a scary opponent to face on the battlefield...

You can only ever hire a single Holy Order, but if you are the patron of an order (more on this further down) it costs nothing to rope them into your religious conflicts. Ha, who needs mercenaries? And, unlike mercenaries, they will stick around with no time limit; no 3-year contracts!

If you are a King or an Emperor, and have a pile of gold and a big chunk of piety, you can found a new Holy Order in your realm by leasing a valid Holding (Castle or City) to the order.

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This initial Holding granted to the Holy Order will be the basis for the Holy Order’s Levies and Taxes – their Headquarters if you will. You can only create one Holy Order, but you can still end up being the patron of several, for example by taking over land where a Holy Order of your faith has their Headquarters.

The Headquarters is the stronghold of the Holy Order, and the first King or Emperor upwards in the liege hierarchy is their formal patron, i.e. the one that can use them for free in wars. The patron must, of course, be of the same faith as the Holy Order. However, if there is no ruler of sufficient rank around to patron the Holy Order it is self-sufficient enough to still function!

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If a Holy Order’s Headquarters is lost another Holding will be selected to fill the role, with a preference for Holdings within the current patron’s realm. But, if the Holy Order has no more holdings the Holy Order is disbanded. Keeping this in mind it’s understandable that the Grandmaster/Grandmistress will take all opportunities they see to get hold of more land…

After founding a Holy Order you might see some events, much like in Ck2, where the order can gain more Holdings in many Realms. And yes, these events do often involve loans and threats of godly wrath.

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The Holy Order can also try to expand their forces if they spy a fitting candidate. After all, it is hard to fight heretics without enough warriors!

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However, we all know that Holy Orders also have a secondary function: to stash your worthless fourth son somewhere where he can’t cause any trouble. You can ask almost all your courtiers to take vows, and depending on your gender doctrines, and the existence of a Holy Order in your faith, they will either be sent to fight for your faith or to become part of the clergy.

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If you no longer see the need to keep a Holy Order around, or if you really need that Holding for something else, you can revoke a Holy Order’s lease to kick them from your land. This will, of course, make both the Grandmaster/Grandmistress and the Head of Faith (if one exists) less than pleased with you.

I hope you are as excited as I am to see Holy Orders in the game! Or, I’m excited to see them crop up in my faith, not my enemies’... Anyhow, that’s all I have for now. Thank you for reading!

Next week we will continue the religious theme; stay tuned for both heresies and doctrines!
 
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Good, good, good! And excellent dev diary and with this the Adepta Sororitas Project is coming closer to completion. :cool:

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This all looks great to me! While it doesn't appear to be a thing at release, I hope you will consider making Holy Orders that you pay to found more customizable. Not only does it just make sense, since you're the one making it, it would build that sense of pride seeing them expand in your name and the name of your Faith.
 
Yeah, I don't think that I really like the idea of Holy Orders being a zombified mob that will brainlessly attack whomever you wish without consequence, even members of your own faith. That just seems silly to me. Even in the 4th Crusade which is the most popular example of interfaith conflict, the rate of desertion was astronomical among those that took up the cross. As it stands, you'll just be able to declare war against a pagan realm with no threat to you and then crush all your same faith neighbors with a large interfaith army without hindrinces. And that is ahistorical and just not neighborly!
 
You cannot choose their names, it is picked from a pool of historical ones, and if they run out one is generated.
This worries me. Isn’t the customization pack returning at launch? It’s essential for RP.
 
We pre-script the names for faiths and religions (Christian Holy Orders have, among others: Knights of the Chalice, Guardians of the Shroud, and Knights Hospitaller), and if they run out the order will be named after the barony you lease to them.
You cannot choose their names, it is picked from a pool of historical ones, and if they run out one is generated.
question: is the order of st. lazarus one of those historical names

we probably cant do an actual order of leper knights but man even just a reference to the raddest military order of all time would be tight as hell
 
They cost Piety.



You cannot choose their names, it is picked from a pool of historical ones, and if they run out one is generated.



Yes, they can be spread out across multiple lands. I don't recall exactly, but you do get a bonus for giving them a Holding



A Patron of a Holy Order cannot create a new one.



No, Clergy/Theocracies are not playable

Are there plans to make Holy Order names choosable?
 
I love the event scrolls, but they’re kind of highlighting one of the biggest issues I have with CKIII. The UI is so damn ugly, and seeing the scrolls next to it makes it look even worse.
 
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Cool DD but I think its a bit OP that the Holy Order can fight every single enemy like a mercenary kinda makes me think whats the real difference between them is if anything also will we get a DD on secret societies?
 
Holy Orders were nominally zealous Christians sworn to defend Christendom against its enemies, but in practice the definition of "enemy" was often loose. An insufficiently pious (as they defined it) Christian ruler could certainly be considered to be one if they desired it [...]
Yes, but the game doesn't model that, does it?

The conditions stated for a ruler to use Holy Order troops against coreligionists is "be at war with a hostile religion". There's nothing about the HO's Grandmaster disliking the opposing ruler, or finding their lack of piety... disturbing. If you want to defend any given choice in a game's design by citing History, then I suppose said design choice must first actually model said History, no?

Not to mention the obvious, massive exploit it opens up, of course.
 
Are there plans to make Holy Order names choosable?

I sure hope it will be added. I would get annoyed if we couldn't name them ourselves.
 
Screenshots imply that members of all holy orders will not be able to marry or inherit.
Well, obviously they shouldn't if religion doesn't allow clergy to get married at all. And even if religions permits secular clergy (lay priests) to marry, monks/nuns equivalent would generally still be celibate. Only holy warriors of religion that doesn't practice religious celibacy at all, like muslim or zoroastrians or norse, would be always exempt.
But even then, Catholic holy orders, including martial ones, had lay members who weren't for life, and weren't full members, so those, if represented at all, should definitely be allowed to inherit.
 
I love the new mechanics, one question though:
Can you also confiscate the money of a holy order in your land while also disposing of their leaders and destroy the order on the very solid claim of heresy and other crimes?

Just asking for a friend ;)
 
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