• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK3 Dev Diary #5 - Schemes, Secrets and Hooks

Greetings, dear would-be kings and queens!

I’m Voffvoffhunden (also known as Petter on the discord or even in private life), one of the game’s content designers. Most people probably haven’t seen me around a lot, since I’ve been working on CK3 in secret since the release of HoI4. It’s been a long journey, but it’s been fun to see the game develop and grow over time, and it’s even more fun now that we get to talk about it to all of you! Today, said talking will be about a handful of new features that together cover some of the most important parts of the Crusader Kings experience. So where better to start than with murder?

We’ve all been there. A united Scandinavia is within your grasp, if only it hadn’t been for your meddling siblings! In CK2, these kinds of problems were handled with the gentle application of the “Murder Plot”, as it was popularly called. That system has been expanded and replaced with our brand new Scheme system!

For Crusader Kings 3, we wanted a system that was slightly easier to predict while keeping it unreliable in its outcome, so that murder remains an… option, rather than a safe bet. We also wanted to reduce the number of agents that you need, to make it more valuable to focus on a few candidates close to the victim, rather than having to send messengers with bags of gold to every single courtier and vassal in the land.

All this is achieved through our new Scheme system, where you can use target a character with a Scheme in accordance with your plans, recruit Agents, build up your Scheme Success Chance, and finally achieve your goal. I’ll try to illustrate how it all works by referring to that most iconic of all Schemes: Murder.

ongoing murder scheme USABLE.PNG



By now, the progress bar might have caught your eye. Each month, a Scheme has a chance of progressing one step, with the odds determined by the Owner’s Scheme Power, and the Target’s Scheme Resistance. These two values are based on the relevant Skill (Intrigue in the case of Murder) but are also affected by Spymasters (in the case of Intrigue-type schemes), various modifiers, and of course - the Owner’s Agents. The closer a Murder Scheme’s Agents are to the Target (and the better their Intrigue), the more Scheme Power they add.

Once the Scheme has progressed 10 steps, it tries to execute. The chance of a successful outcome is determined by the Scheme’s Success Chance (which has a slightly different set of modifiers to Scheme Power), while its Secrecy is used to check whether you are discovered or not when you try to execute.

If you’ve gathered capable agents and you’re lucky enough to not get caught, that inheritance will be as good as yours!

As the Scheme's Owner, you are protected from discovery until you actually attempt to execute your scheme. This protection does not extend to your agents, however! And being discovered as a participant in a murder plot is rarely good for one’s reputation, or for one’s habit of seeing sunlight every day.

It is worth noting that when the existence of a Scheme is discovered in this way, its chance of success drops significantly, as the appointed victim makes every preparation possible to foil your plans.

On the other hand, perhaps you’re just not the murderous type? Thankfully the Scheme system is so flexible that it can be used for all manner of long-term interactions. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Seduction makes a return as a Scheme. Seduce does not use Agents in the way Murder does, and it’s not dangerous in the same way… unless your target happens to be married, that is. Achieving success - determined by things such as your skill at seduction, their sexual preference, and whether you get along whatsoever - can net you a new Lover.
I know where your minds are going at that thought, and yes - it’s a great way of acquiring Agents for your Murder Scheme!

Sway is another returning favourite that’s now a Scheme. Sway also doesn't use Agents but largely relies on your Diplomacy instead. It simply progresses towards its execution and then checks whether you successfully improve their opinion or not. Then it loops around and starts over, building up the target’s opinion of you until you stop it -- or commit some horrible diplomatic faux pas...

To add to the convenience, all characters can run one Hostile Scheme (such as murder) and one Personal Scheme (such as Seduction or Sway) at the same time. Unfortunately, you can only target a given character with a single scheme at a time, so you won’t be able to both murder and seduce the same person, just to see which one pays off sooner. You have to do one after the other.

Now, as I indicated earlier, trying to murder someone is usually illegal. (Fun fact: according to Paradox’s legal department this is also the case in real life.) However, if you’re not discovered when you do it, you’re off the hook, right? Not so! Let me introduce you to something that will change the way you nervously glance over your shoulder forever: Secrets!

hooks and secrets USABLE.PNG



Characters can acquire Secrets when they do something that is frowned upon or outright illegal. You want to keep your own Secrets close to your chest, while it can be of great benefit to uncover the Secrets of others. By sending your Spymaster to… well, spy, it’s possible to find out what is going on with your annoying vassals, your threatening neighbour, or even at your own court!

So what do you do when you discover a Secret? One possible course of action is to expose it for the world to see, of course! This will apply various effects depending on how serious the Secret is. Being the King’s secret lover will cause a scandal, being a Secret Deviant will leave you with the Deviant trait, while being exposed as a secret murderer is exactly the excuse your Liege has been waiting for to throw you in the dungeon. Not to mention those horrible Kinslaying penalties (“Hey, they’re my family, and I choose what to do with them, okay?”).

The other possible course of action ties into our new evolution of CK2’s Favors. This is now a generalised system called “Hooks”, which come in various flavours. Favors is one of these, while another might represent the loyalty that a House member owes to the House Head.

A Hook is used to force characters to do what you want them to, such as accepting marriage offers, changing your Feudal Contract, or forcing them to join your Scheme as an Agent…

forcing prince bishop to accept USABLE.png



There are Weak and Strong Hooks, where weak Hooks are used up once expended, while Strong Hooks only get a cooldown, ready to be used again later. The source of a Hook determines its strength, and the strongest Hooks come from Blackmailing someone over their most horrible secrets…

blackmail over incest USABLE.PNG



You might want to keep hold of a Hook once you have it, though, rather than spending it. Having a Hook on someone can prevent them from taking hostile actions towards you -- particularly useful when dealing with pesky vassals. Be warned, however. While having a strong Blackmail Hook on someone really gives you the upper hand, it will be lost if the Secret you are blackmailing over is exposed.

There are many types of Schemes, Secrets and Hooks in the game, and while it would be entirely possible to list them all, I think it would be way more fun for you to gradually discover them through future dev diaries or once the game is released.

Hopefully, it’s clear by now how everything I have talked about hangs together. Maybe you want to murder someone, so you need some Agents. However, no one wants to join, so you dig for Secrets that can be converted into Blackmail Hooks. Meanwhile, you’re running a Personal Scheme (such as Sway) to increase another potential Agent’s opinion of you, so that you can convince them that -- yes, their Liege really is that bad.

But what if everyone hates you (on account of all the murderin’) and you’re unable to find a single blackmail-worthy speck of dirt on anyone?

Well, in Crusader Kings 3 there might be something you can do about that…

Fabricate Hook teaser USABLE.PNG
 

Attachments

  • forcing prince bishop to accept USABLE.PNG
    forcing prince bishop to accept USABLE.PNG
    672,9 KB · Views: 34.249
  • 5Like
  • 3Love
  • 2
Reactions:
I was totally not thinking about seducing my close kin sibling...

Will we be able to seduce people even if the player character is homosexual? I get that ai character may never accept a relation ship if they are homosexual, but perhaps my gay Duke is really ambitious and really does want to be in that one queens favor? Or my homosexual queen is looking for strong male allies, and even though she does not like it she still does have a powerful weapon against men....
Not only that, but gay people can still recognize the necessity of having an heir. Or might just want a child.
 
This sure looks like a massive improvement to a crucial section of the game. Exciting stuff.
 
Not at the moment, no. We don't want every agent to immediately turn around and Blackmail you :p

Why not? That's the whole risk of involving other people in your plot.

As it stands, you only need to select people that are close to your target but this completely ignores the fact that someone close to your target may not be someone that you can trust. Trust is arguably the #1 consideration when selecting co-conspirators. You have this whole awesome system for secrets, leverage and lies but it seems like you've kind of nerfed it's most obvious application here tbh.

The fact that plot leaders are so artificially insulated is disappointing and really gamey, in my respectful opinion.*

*still gonna preorder though so whatevs lol
 
I'm curious about the plot outcome, I would love to see complex or dynamic plots, where the outcome results in accidentally kills someone else, or killing multiple people in an unintended outcome.

Do conspirators have plot defenses against each other after murdering a victim in a certain way to cover up their dirty deeds? And is there a way for the victims family to find out who killed their family member?
 
Do conspirators have plot defenses against each other after murdering a victim in a certain way to cover up their dirty deeds?
That is why you have them executed next, clearing up lose ends. Dead people don't talk.

I'm curious about the plot outcome, I would love to see complex or dynamic plots, where the outcome results in accidentally kills someone else, or killing multiple people in an unintended outcome.
That is interesting.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Unfortunately I didn't have the time to read through the entire thread, so please don't hate on me, but are there any plans on adding more options to schemes/plots?

I would be awesome to plot to kidnap someone or to frame/incriminate someone for things they didn't do.

If we could combine these plots, that'd be even better, i.e. you plot to murder someone, that plot is successful and you weren't discovered, next you can accuse someone you don't like of this murder and plant some evidence they did it. That'd be grand. Of course, the more complex the plot would be, the lower the success chance.

Please do it! The only thing that CK2 was lacking in my opinion was more complex plot options.
 
With the new system it sounds like a murder plot would take at minimum 10 months to fire no matter how high your scheme power is. A successful murder plot would take approximately an entire year even if you manage to gain progress every month due to how the progress bar works.

Personally I would much prefer a system where you gain progress much faster depending on your scheme power rather than artificially limiting scheme progress to 10% a month.
 
Reading the FAQ I noticed the question:
"
Can you go public with a secret you have willingly, so other people loose their hook on you?
  • You can refuse Blackmail, at which point your secret will be exposed."
I feel like you should give the person Blackmailing an opportunity to not expose it even if they refuse, while less important in Singleplayer I can see situations where it might not be beneficial to reveal the secret and blackmail as a bluff hoping they will accept the blackmail.
 
I just hope seduction isn't as broken as CK2. Characters who are known cads or take multiple lovers should suffer penalties. Likewise, I would like to see other traits than purely lustful and chaste play into the likelihood of a character of being seduced, an example would be a craven being afraid of being caught or a kind character not wanting to hurt their spouse. Something other than the AI and players endlessly spamming the same three options on every woman in the realm. And old men of lower social rank should not be able to seduce the seventeen-year-old daughters of Kings and Emperors. Peasants might fall for them due to social climbing but nobody else has any reason to sleep with these STD ridden freaks except for an really high seduction score.
 
I really hope you are fleshing this out a lot... it is one really interesting Feature beside the plain mappainting war stuff and i would hope that someone could get more land or titles or really destroy dynasties and kingdoms with plots, hooks and secrets

I have some ideas :)
any illegal/immoral action or even knowledge of it should be a secret (not only the last one)... maybe with different layers of impact if revealed and also reduced if very old
The knowledge of attempted murder (even if you are not participating) of the king without warning him immediatly should also have consequences if found out
I would also add some kind of "proof" to every secret... even if you know that someone did or is planning something, you should need some proof (like written letters or other people ready to vow on this) to reveal or blackmail etc
One benefit would be, that you can take actions to reduce "proof"value on your own secrets .. e.g. people vanish, letters can be stolen and destroyed
Not sure about the performance of the game and how to limit this ... don't want to be iverwhelmed and constantly busy with this the whole game either...
But i think this would create some interesting stories ;-)
 
I just hope seduction isn't as broken as CK2. Characters who are known cads or take multiple lovers should suffer penalties. Likewise, I would like to see other traits than purely lustful and chaste play into the likelihood of a character of being seduced, an example would be a craven being afraid of being caught or a kind character not wanting to hurt their spouse. Something other than the AI and players endlessly spamming the same three options on every woman in the realm. And old men of lower social rank should not be able to seduce the seventeen-year-old daughters of Kings and Emperors. Peasants might fall for them due to social climbing but nobody else has any reason to sleep with these STD ridden freaks except for an really high seduction score.
Character stats don't change much or at all with age in CK2. This lead to rather crazy stuff such as teenagers without much or any experience being better than adults. Like 17 year old Jeanne d'Arc who have never seen a battle is given 33 martial which make her a more able commander than people like Genghis Khan who have spent their whole life at war. If it was HOI2 Jeanne would probably start with skill 0 but have a max skill of 9 and some decent traits so eventually she could reach her potential but she would have to start from the bottom.
 
I might have missed that but... Will the person we have a hook on know that we do before we decide to use it up (and conversely, will we know if someone has a hook on us before he uses it up)?
 
Last edited:
I might have missed that but... Will the peson we have a hook on know that we do so before we decide to use it up (and conversely, will we know if someone has a hook on us before he uses it up)?
It may very well be both, however in terms of gameplay I suppose it make some sense that you know who have a hook on you so you can for example try to kill them;)
 
There should be an achievement or something called "Huck a Dux" that involves a Hook and a Duke. I know this sounds awful but... well, yeah. I just like how bad a pun it is. :(
 
It may very well be both, however in terms of gameplay I suppose it make some sense that you know who have a hook on you so you can for example try to kill them;)
Yes, but it would be cool for the same reason not to know anyone who has a hook on us (for example, a foreign ruler who learned a secret about you by... grace of torture), so that we could be actually surprised.

Anyway, only @Voffvoffhunden will know...

EDIT: Bonus question: why in the OP Prince-Bishop Anno is "Forced to Accept" and "Will accept" because of the hook, while King Eric III "May accept" but he's not "Forced to"? The hook's weight? The relative power?
 
Is there any particular reason why a murder plot leader should be protected from discovery before attempting to execute an attempt? It doesn't seem realistic to be so safe just because you are still laying the trap.

I hope there will be a larger range of assassination attempt choices and outcomes, such as choosing when and how to do it, as well as having a chance of murdering the wrong target, etc.

It would be nice to be able to get personal retainers experienced in ``handling this business'' that you can send to foreign courts to carry out the attempt personally.

Because the ones acting are the agents while the Plot Leader coordinates everything. But they said that agents can be caught before the plan is enacted and they can reveal the plot leader so he is not really protected

i think catching an agent essentially involves "tracing the men they sent back to the person who hired them", and depends on the agent-lord's intrigue skill and the random element how well they covered their tracks that time. You are not hiring thugs, sabotaging things personally so there's no chance for you to be exposed until you get more directly involved by giving an execution order (thereby covering scenarios like described.... "there's a chance this plan could kill anyone traveling with the target, go ahead or wait for a better time?"

agents are few and the only lords you personally invite, and their exposure in a plot doesn't mean they themselves are now under lock and key / interrogation though depending on the plot it could be justification to do so.
i imagine they have your Secret.... once connected to a plot they could be pressured via a Hook (like, hey you're my prisoner) to reveal who gives the order.... i like this being a special case rather than a thing that just randomly happens sometimes "oops, word got out" makes sense for the existence of a plot generally, not a list of all the members involved xD

edit: in fact this could actually be really good motivation to actually work on a discovered agent, the easy way or the hard way, rather than instantly remove them from their capacity. yes, you've discovered your spymaster is laying a trap for you.... you receive a decision.
you can reveal the existence of the plot publicly to your men, doom it to probably fail... you can remove him from office. stage his imprisonment. But then you must rely on extracting that information for him, he may flee and perhaps you may never know which lord might have been behind the plot you survived all those many long years ago...
he could now be on your council, set to be your regent. perhaps its better to wait, and watch for when he receives the execution order to discover the plot master. prolly Carole Baskins tho

final edit: or the way of the true CK warrior, begin a campaign of imprisoning/beheading their entire house/dynasty. if the agent isn't the dynast, he would be a plot master with a strong hook w/ his nephew, your spymaster.
 
Last edited: