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CK3 Dev Diary #67 - A View to a Map

Greetings!

The team is slowly coming back together after a well deserved summer vacation. Today, let’s have a look at what we’ve been doing to the culture setup and some small scale map tweaks. Most of the work we’ve spent on cultures has naturally gone into the cultural overhaul itself, but we have made some general improvements as well, most notably over in India.

Starting with a small culture addition in southern Europe, and that some of you keen eyed readers noticed back in a previous dev diary, we’ve added back a fan favorite from CK2; Carantanian. The culture is quite extensive on game start and covers most of south-eastern Bavaria. From a historical point of view, the culture is of a west slavic origin, but as they got cut off from their ancestral brethren in the Carpathian Basin, they became gradually closer to the south slavic peoples. We represent this by Carantanian having a West Slavic Heritage, but speaking a South Slavic Language.

01_carantanian.jpg

[Image of Carantanian culture]

Next, I’ll hand it over to our local India expert, @Trin Tragula, to talk about (you guessed it) India!

Indian Culture Changes
The culture rework has been a good opportunity to rework the cultures in India a bit. The current setup here is one we inherited from Crusader Kings 2 and it was in some ways not entirely appropriate for our era. To better reflect the diversity of the subcontinent we have added two new cultures, changed the old ones a bit and also added a great number of potential culture names for when the large starting cultures diverge.

First of all we have gotten rid of Hindustani culture, and two new cultures have been broken away from what it used to cover in the south. The core part of the culture covers the Gangetic plain, and is now known as Kannauji after the Imperial city of Kannauj (Kanyakubja) which was the main prize of the region and often gave its name to it.

Hindustani itself is still around in a way, as a possible name for a cultural hybrid between an Iranian or Turkic culture with one of the north indian cultures.

02_cultures_in_india.jpg

[Image of the cultures in northern India]

Starting in the central parts of India the newly added Gond culture has been carved out of areas that were previously Hindustani, Marathi or Oriya. In 1066 most Gond counties are under the control of the Cedi kingdom and many of these counties are now also tribal at start. This culture covers a region that was in an odd place in the old setup, at the border of several cultures but not quite belonging to either of them.

03_gond.jpg

[Image of the Gond culture]

Covering the Malwa plateau as well as some of the adjacent regions that were previously considered Hindustani. This new culture shares a language with the Rajasthani and Gujarati cultures, Gurjar Apabhramsa. The existing Rajput culture has been renamed to Rajasthani (since Rajput as a cultural distinction does not really fit our start date) and Assamese is now known as Kamrupi.

04_malvi.jpg

[Image of the Malvi culture]

Indian History and Title Improvements
While looking over the subcontinent it was also clear that in some areas the title setup was also better suited for the early modern era, rather than the medieval era around Crusader Kings III start dates. A number of baronies have been renamed and reorganized into new counties, and a number of new vassals have been scripted in, especially for the 1066 start.
The starting presumptions about who controlled what in 1066 have also been revisited to bring things better in line with history and create a more interesting start. There are now more starting characters, both independent and vassals, and most kings will no longer start above their domain limit.

Some things like the crisis of the Chola empire should also be a bit better represented in the initial setup, with strong and somewhat unruly Pandya vassals, a much stronger Lankan revolt and the Chera Raja now independent (with his historical vassals to support him). You can now also play as the future king, Kulottunga.
There are also other, minor changes, such as revisiting the extent of cultures like Kashmiri, and Telugu, and assigning a number of tribal counties in the eastern-central part of the subcontinent.

05_sinhalese_rebellion.jpg

[Image of the Sinhalese rebellion in 1066]

That concludes today’s dev diary. Until next time!
 
currently though ck2 has infinitely higher amount-of-product/cost ratio to ck3 due to the former being free. which makes a comparison in which one is more worth it a bit awkward.
 
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currently though ck2 has infinitely higher amount-of-product/cost ratio to ck3 due to the former being free. which makes a comparison in which one is more worth it a bit awkward.
Comparing by cost doesn't work because there are many free games but we can still compare them. (At best, cost can be a modifier.)
 
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Comparing by cost doesn't work because there are many free games but we can still compare them. (At best, cost can be a modifier.)
Uh, free is a cost ( 0 ). Technically, everything is a modifier once you establish your primary criteria of comparison. For some people, cost is the primary factor in deciding which games they will play.

It is up to each individual customer to quantify the value to them of each point of comparison - cost, entertainment per unit of time played, total expectation of entertainment time, availability, etc.

Comparing CK2 at its release vs CK3 at its release might make sense if you are doing a comparison between the technologies and the advancements made, but it makes no sense from a customer perspective because comparing CK2 at its release means comparing vs a non-existent and not yet to be developed for 8 more years CK3.
 
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You should compare between the options that the customer has at any one time. So compare CK3 as of August 2021 to CK2 as of August 2021. Because those are the options the customer has to choose between.
One thing to keep in mind with this comparison, is that for a customer looking at buying CK2 vs CK3 in August 2021 the fact CK3 is still being supported and developed will weigh into their decision on where to spend their money. Cause with a game like CK2 or CK3, most players aren't buying a game to play for just that month, but to buy a game they'll hopefully play for a long time.

Now this isn't just whether they have faith that CK3 will improve with time (though that does play an important), but I know for myself part of the appeal of playing CK2 back in the day is that the game would change and feel fresh because of the new content that was added every so often So I don't think I would have played CK2 for as many years as I did if it had been release with all its content on day one. It's almost like a MMO in some ways.

Though I'd also like to point out that this can cut the other way for some players, not everyone will like every change. And so for some players the fact CK2 isn't going to be changed at all is pro, as it's more certain what you are buying than CK3.

So to sum up, even if looking from the perspective of a player looking to buy either CK2 or CK3 in August 2021, the fact that CK3 will change (presumably for the better) can be a reason for a player to buy CK3 even though they won't see any of that benefit immediately in August 2021. But for some players who want to know that they are buying might push them towards CK2. So comparing CK2 and CK3 can't be reduced to just comparing features and price on a certain date (though existing features do admittedly play an important role in the comparison).
 
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Uh, free is a cost ( 0 ). Technically, everything is a modifier once you establish your primary criteria of comparison. For some people, cost is the primary factor in deciding which games they will play.
Yes, it is a cost, namely zero, and its being zero may be a modifier. Thus, you can't just say "we can't compare vanilla CK2 to vanilla CK3 because CK2 is free and CK3 is not", freeness (like any difference in cost) does not make games incomparable.

Yet if we follow the rule of "how much excitement we can buy for sum X", while non-free games will be compared by multiplying onto the cost proportion (so, to simplify, a $10 game is to be three times as entertaining as a $30 game; of course, in reality 1)cost is normally estimated logarithmically or something like that, so some function over cost is to be taken; 2) there are entrance barriers that make it so value=f(cost(game))*excitement(game)-entrance(game)), free games will normally become incomparable because you can buy infinitely more free games than non-free games.
 
What should we compare to be fair? Vanilla CK2 vs Vanilla CK3, right?

All the "marvelous DLC" that CK2 had were... well... extra content. You can play CK2 without all that extra content that was added after the release. So if we compare what was sold the "release dates" CK3 is much deeper and rich than CK2 was.

Once CK3 will stop adding content and CK3 become a "final product" we will be able to compare them fairly.
Comparing vanilla CK2 with vanilla CK3 would be comparing a game released in 2012 with a game released in 2020. Despite the patches to CK2, it's not a reasonable comparison.

However, comparing a game with 7 years' worth of DLCs to a game with 1 year's worth of DLCs is also unreasonable IMO.

The most reasonable comparison is probably CK3 to CK2 somewhere along its cycle of development... or maybe not.

Honestly, I don't think there is an objectively best point of comparison. It's largely a matter of personal opinion.

And my personal opinion here is that the lack of message settings in CK3 ruins the game. Hence why I haven't really played it for over half a year, and don't see myself ever doing so again (because let's get real, I don't believe for a second that we're ever going to get anything like message settings in CK3). :(
 
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I didn't believe for a second we would get dynamic cultures, but here we are ;) Let's have some faith in Pdx, they are slow but steady.
I like your optimism. :) But unfortunately I can't share it. Message settings are such a basic feature that if we were getting them it's likely they would have been included from the very beginning.

After all, message settings used to be available in every Paradox grand strategy game. Since they started releasing games without them, AFAIK not a single game that was released without them has had them added later. :(
 
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Actually the most fair comparison will be when CK3 ends his lifecycle.

Since then, we're just making assumptions :D
I don't think comparing the end of the life cycle of a game released in 2020 vs. one released in 2012 is very fair either, to be honest. :)
 
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YES - Carantania! I still remember being like: "Finally!" when the culture was added in at the end of CK2's cycle, since it actually made a lot of sense for it to still be there in the earliest 769 start. And then being all "Awwww" when it was absent at CK3's launch. But I consoled myself with thoughts of: "eh...the earliest start date is now set a century later...I guess you could argue the culture had dissolved somewhat by then with its christianizing and german nobles installed over it soon after, thanks to Ljudevit Posavski's rebellion." Then when I heard of the new culture system arriving, I thought: "Well...I guess I could make my own custom Carantanian culture from that and simulate its ahistorical resurgence, so all is not lost quite yet!" and now I get to read this dropping, right before we conclude our best ever Olympics too, almost as if to honor it!

Welp...I guess now I don't really have an excuse not to get back into it for another playthrough.
 
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On that note I truly want tribal communities like the Hunas, etc. to make an appearance even if just as one vassal chieftain.

On the topic of missing queens, can we expect (everyone's favourite Cedi kingdom ruler) Karna's Huna wife Avalla-Devi for 1066? I've always enjoyed playing as that kingdom and it would be even more fun now that they're getting their own culture. EDIT: Also make Karna's in-game brother his son.
Turns out I forgot to reply to this. As it happened we did have some Huna characters scripted since CK2, I used them (and added a few more descendants) to to populate a county in an appropriate location for the (presumably tiny) Huna Mandala that is referred to in the 10th and 11th century around Malwa.
Avalladevi will make an appearance too :)
 
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That was just me taking the screenshot to highlight the actual changes. The culture setup in southern India remains the same as before if I recall correctly.
As for your other questions, I'll leave those for the expert to answer.


We haven't added any new cultures other than the ones already mentioned in the DD.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question.
 
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few questions about languages

  1. will bilingualism be a thing
  2. and would it we a purely personal thing or als cooperated into culture?
  3. how can you learn them, only as a child though education, will there be a new role for it, like the court physician?
  4. will there be some kind of lingua franca mechanic?
  5. will hybrid culture have both languages of their "parent" culture or one or is that decidable ingame
 
few questions about languages

  1. will bilingualism be a thing
  2. and would it we a purely personal thing or als cooperated into culture?
  3. how can you learn them, only as a child though education, will there be a new role for it, like the court physician?
  4. will there be some kind of lingua franca mechanic?
  5. will hybrid culture have both languages of their "parent" culture or one or is that decidable ingame
1. You can learn multiple languages.
2. Language knowledge will affect how people react to you. Knowing their language will improve their opinion of you, so it's useful to learn other languages.
3. You learn languages through education and can also as what I assume will be a Scheme.
4. Not sure what that is.
5. Cultures only have one language. I believe you pick one or the other when hybridizing your culture.
 
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4. Not sure what that is.
Lingua Franca? An intentionally spoken common language. So, in the games time frame Latin in the west and Arabic in the Middle East would be two examples. Greek and Latin and the Classical period for the Mediterranean, French in the early Modern Period for Europe and English today would be other examples.
 
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I am really glad that these expansions are different, yet similar, to the old game. Creating a whole new culture is something I am really excited about.