• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK3 Dev Diary #79 - An Update on Cultures

Greetings!

We’ve talked plenty about cultures already at this point, but I wanted to give you a brief update on what we’ve done since the initial reveal of the culture rework. Since then, we’ve taken some time to add additional functionality based on your feedback!

Previously, you could only add new traditions to a culture to fill out any empty tradition slots you may have. If you wanted to change anything regarding your culture, you would have to create a new one. Which begs the question. What if I want to keep the culture I already have? Or why can I not replace that one tradition to make my culture perfect? Fret not. The cultural head has gained the ability to change, or ‘reform’ if you will, their culture in order to change it without the need to create a new culture. The cultural head cannot replace everything mind you, but may change the ethos, the martial custom, and any tradition. If you want to change any of the remaining pillars you’ll have to create a new culture, either by diverging or forming a hybrid. Do note that you need to own the Royal Court expansion to reform your culture, similar to creating a culture. Even without the DLC, you can always add new traditions to fill out any empty slots.

Reasoning for what you are able to change this way is twofold. First, changing heritage or language for an existing culture felt a bit off. While a language in reality does evolve over time, that is something we don’t really represent in the game, which makes it weird to simply “replace” a language. And you can’t really change your heritage in the same vein as, say, a tradition. Secondly, we wanted to make sure that you still have a valid reason to create a divergent culture. The two approaches are slightly similar in functionality, but it is important that both reforming and diverging a culture serves different purposes and that the distinction between the two is clear.

01_reform_button.jpg

[Image showing the options to reform or diverge a culture]

The major difference is, as mentioned above, that reforming only allows you to change certain aspects about a culture, while diverging allows for additional possibilities. A second significant difference is the cost. Replacing a pillar will cost you prestige. The ethos in particular includes a rather hefty prestige cost that should make it rather difficult to repeatedly change it over the course of a campaign. You are, however, free to pick any ethos, regardless of circumstances.

02_replace_ethos.jpg

[Image of the ethos replacement window]

Traditions will also be more expensive to replace. Instead of just a flat increase, replacing a tradition increases the prestige cost by 50%. The cost penalty will therefore be relative to how well your culture matches any given tradition, making the additional cost more harsh for already expensive (and less compatible) traditions.

03_replace_tradition_cost.jpg

[Image showing the prestige cost for the Agrarian tradition when replacing a tradition]

These additional costs will make reforming or diverging your culture easier or more difficult depending on your situation. Attempting to diverge from a large and unified culture, such as Greek when playing as the Byzantine emperor, will be rather expensive and the less viable option. Especially if you only want to change a tradition or two. Reforming your culture will be cheaper, allowing you to more easily tweak your culture over time.

If you are playing as the cultural head of a widely spread culture, such as Andalusian, diverging might instead be your preferred solution. Diverging from a culture that is spread out across multiple realms is significantly cheaper, allowing you to instead spend the prestige on replacing additional traditions or save it for something else entirely. Changing pillars is, for example, free when diverging, since you are forced to change at least one pillar in order to be able to create your new culture.

Finally, you might have noticed the hourglass in the above screenshots. This is the establishment rate. Whenever you add or replace a tradition, or change a pillar, it will take some time before the change is applied. The time required for a change to be fully adopted mainly depends on your culture’s size. Larger cultures will logically gravitate towards a slower establishment rate. The duration is also increased whenever you replace an existing tradition. As such, adding a completely new tradition to your culture is not only cheaper, but it will go faster as well. This is important because you may only have one cultural change pending at any given time. If you replace a tradition with something else, you will have to wait until that tradition has been fully adopted before you can change your culture again. Diverging, on the other hand, still allows you to do sweeping changes and they take effect immediately as you create a new culture.

04_establish_time.jpg

[Image of the establishment rate tooltip]

That about sums up all of the additional changes we’ve done. In short, the ambition here is to allow you to shape your culture more freely in the way you want, without having to always resort to doing something that might feel a bit heavy handed. On a final note, I’d like to thank you for providing us with feedback and voicing your opinions! Giving valid and constructive criticism does, at times, pay off.
 
  • 156Like
  • 56Love
  • 24
  • 15
  • 4
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
Do any traditions require an ethos to work? I know they might require an ethos to be more effective (or cheaper to adopt), but I don't think any are restricted to particular ethoses.
I quickly checked and while they mentioned traditions having conditions, Ethos isn't one of them (so far). But I can see it being a requirement (for the more powerful and thematic ones) hence why I went with it :D

Anyway Traditions may end up not fulfilling conditions in a variety of ways and I wanna know how they will tackle this.
 
Okay, I don't know if it's double, but I think it would be interesting if when you reform some cultures they can change their name if certain criteria are met. For example Vlach could change its name from Vlach to Romanian if either the Byzantine Empire does not exist or a vlach ruler rules it.
 
Am I reading this wrong? 20,000 prestige to make a change? I don't think I've ever hit 20,000 prestige in any game with any ruler. Granted, I've only been playing since August; I needed a better computer, so I am not as experienced as some. Most of my rulers make it to The Living Legend, but 20,000 prestige is insane. I think I've hit 12 or 13k a couple of times.

If I'm reading it right and it is 20,000 prestige, please tell me how to get to 20,000 prestige.
 
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
Am I reading this wrong? 20,000 prestige to make a change? I don't think I've ever hit 20,000 prestige in any game with any ruler. Granted, I've only been playing since August; I needed a better computer, so I am not as experienced as some. Most of my rulers make it to The Living Legend, but 20,000 prestige is insane. I think I've hit 12 or 13k a couple of times.

If I'm reading it right and it is 20,000 prestige, please tell me how to get to 20,000 prestige.
Carefully.

You need to take every opportunity for expanding your prestige that comes up, and you need to train your heirs so that they have traits that give extra prestige and don't limit your opportunities for prestige.
Go to feasts, go hunting, hold lots of land, have a high diplomacy score.

It's certainly not going to be easy, and I'd hope there's going to be some ways to get reductions in that number. Overall I'm not sure I'll be hitting that much prestige myself.
 
Am I reading this wrong? 20,000 prestige to make a change?
Look at the detailed screenshot with a breakdown of cost modifiers, where a change is shown to cost 10.5k, from base cost of 2k, because it conflicts with existing features of the culture, conflicts with its geographical situation, and is replacing an existing feature rather than filling an empty slot.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Am I reading this wrong? 20,000 prestige to make a change? I don't think I've ever hit 20,000 prestige in any game with any ruler. Granted, I've only been playing since August; I needed a better computer, so I am not as experienced as some. Most of my rulers make it to The Living Legend, but 20,000 prestige is insane. I think I've hit 12 or 13k a couple of times.

If I'm reading it right and it is 20,000 prestige, please tell me how to get to 20,000 prestige.
You can just marry and divorce the same person over and over again for huge prestige since that bug still isn't fixed for some reason
 
  • 3Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Carefully.

You need to take every opportunity for expanding your prestige that comes up, and you need to train your heirs so that they have traits that give extra prestige and don't limit your opportunities for prestige.
Go to feasts, go hunting, hold lots of land, have a high diplomacy score.

It's certainly not going to be easy, and I'd hope there's going to be some ways to get reductions in that number. Overall I'm not sure I'll be hitting that much prestige myself.

I do this every chance I get. I have hunts and feasts set up to notify me every time they are available. I have a high Diplomacy score, my personal holdings are pretty good. (An empire, five kingdoms, etc.) My current ruler should be living a while longer since I've maxed out the "blood" dynasty legacy and he's working the medicine focus. He's been ruling since he was 18, but he's still only at 14,000 prestige, and he's definitely nearer death than birth. If the cost were even 15,000 prestige I would think it unreasonable but at least ACHIEVABLE.

Definitely hope that these numbers are not final. Or at least that there's some way to decrease the cost. Something that makes it possible to do without requiring your ruler to live to be 100 years old and never pass up any opportunity to gain prestige, no matter the cost, etc.

Look at the detailed screenshot with a breakdown of cost modifiers, where a change is shown to cost 10.5k, from base cost of 2k, because it conflicts with existing features of the culture, conflicts with its geographical situation, and is replacing an existing feature rather than filling an empty slot.

That's for replacing Traditions, not for replacing Ethos. There's no breakdown on replacing the Ethos, and they ALL cost 20,00 prestige.

You can just marry and divorce the same person over and over again for huge prestige since that bug still isn't fixed for some reason

I'd rather not cheat (exploiting a bug is cheating in my view) to accomplish what I want to accomplish.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
The biggest issue I have with this DLC, is that it makes the base game feel so empty by comparison.
It only gets better, but the price is our patience

I'm still happy with the fact that the devs lay some weight about the opinion of the community and wanna deliver some high quality.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I do this every chance I get. I have hunts and feasts set up to notify me every time they are available. I have a high Diplomacy score, my personal holdings are pretty good. (An empire, five kingdoms, etc.) My current ruler should be living a while longer since I've maxed out the "blood" dynasty legacy and he's working the medicine focus. He's been ruling since he was 18, but he's still only at 14,000 prestige, and he's definitely nearer death than birth. If the cost were even 15,000 prestige I would think it unreasonable but at least ACHIEVABLE.

Definitely hope that these numbers are not final. Or at least that there's some way to decrease the cost. Something that makes it possible to do without requiring your ruler to live to be 100 years old and never pass up any opportunity to gain prestige, no matter the cost, etc.



That's for replacing Traditions, not for replacing Ethos. There's no breakdown on replacing the Ethos, and they ALL cost 20,00 prestige.



I'd rather not cheat (exploiting a bug is cheating in my view) to accomplish what I want to accomplish.

I very much agree with this. 20,000 is far too much. Sure I understand that it should be hard. But still doable with a good (but not perfect) ruler. 10,000 I would consider reasonable. Because let's take a look at some of the prestige costs for decisions.

the only ones that cost 10,000 prestige is the dismantle german/greek pretender decision. Which additionally also requires controlling the byzantine empire+italia+some german counties or the HRE+italia+some greek counties.

forming a new empire (revive greater armenia I count as the same as this) costs 2,000, a new kingdom 500.
inspire opus francigenum is 3,000.
promote christian settlements is 2,000

All others cost at most 1,000

yet changing the ethos we see is 20,000 prestige.

This means that while the option is there. It might as well still not be there for anyone other than multi kingdom kings and emperors that dedicate their entire life to gathering as much prestige as possible and spending as little as possible. A small kingdom controlling it's own culture is almost never going to be able to reach 20,000 prestige without min-maxing the game to the absolute maximum.

I therefore would strongly suggest a lower cost for this. And additionally put forward the number 10,000 as a reasonable candidate.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Am I reading this wrong? 20,000 prestige to make a change? I don't think I've ever hit 20,000 prestige in any game with any ruler. Granted, I've only been playing since August; I needed a better computer, so I am not as experienced as some. Most of my rulers make it to The Living Legend, but 20,000 prestige is insane. I think I've hit 12 or 13k a couple of times.

If I'm reading it right and it is 20,000 prestige, please tell me how to get to 20,000 prestige.
I also think this is too much. I get that this should be difficult, but considering you can diverge your culture and choose a new ethos that way for far cheaper, it seems excessive. Also, if you put in a gameplay feature like this and make it so difficult to get that the majority of your players will never be able to get it, I think that's a bad policy. Make it 10k and it would be better. It's one thing to increase costs based on factors like it not fitting with your current culture, but to have the base cost be so high is too much.

One other thing that doesn't make sense to me is when replacing an existing tradition. You're in a screen to replace an existing tradition and yet you still have a modifier to the cost because you are replacing an existing decision. If you were on a screen to add a new tradition, then having that modifier makes sense. But if you're on a screen to replace an existing tradition, the cost should be part of the base cost and not a modifier to the cost. I know you're doing that because you want it to be 50% more and you can't do that as a base cost value, but it still feels wrong.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
Reactions:
I also think this is too much. I get that this should be difficult, but considering you can diverge your culture and choose a new ethos that way for far cheaper, it seems excessive. Also, if you put in a gameplay feature like this and make it so difficult to get that the majority of your players will never be able to get it, I think that's a bad policy. Make it 10k and it would be better. It's one thing to increase costs based on factors like it not fitting with your current culture, but to have the base cost be so high is too much.

One other thing that doesn't make sense to me is when replacing an existing tradition. You're in a screen to replace an existing tradition and yet you still have a modifier to the cost because you are replacing an existing decision. If you were on a screen to add a new tradition, then having that modifier makes sense. But if you're on a screen to replace an existing tradition, the cost should be part of the base cost and not a modifier to the cost. I know you're doing that because you want it to be 50% more and you can't do that as a base cost value, but it still feels wrong.
If it was 10k, then it would be possible for virtually any ruler of an established realm who has a long reign to completely change the ethos of their culture - that just seems way too easy to me.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Maybe the solution is to add some additional gates on being able to change culture perks. Like if prestige is the only cost, then you necessarily have to make the cost so high that only the most prestigious rulers in history could do it, or else everyone will be shuffling culture perks all the time. But if there were some other requirements, the prestige cost could be a little more affordable while still making it rare. I don't have any great ideas for what those other gates could be, though.
 
If it was 10k, then it would be possible for virtually any ruler of an established realm who has a long reign to completely change the ethos of their culture - that just seems way too easy to me.
True but if it is 20k then only the super prestigious rulers could change the ethos, leaving small single culture realms like Basque Navarra, Dutch Frisia, Irish Ireland, and many more completely unable to change their ethos without first establishing world domination.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
So, we could reform our culture?
How about reforming religions instead of forcing creating new one for every single change?
Hopefully we'll get to that eventually.

But you can't realistically have (say) the King of France as the most pious and prestigious Catholic King just up and reform Catholicism for the whole faith from Portugal to the Urals; from Scandinavia down to the mediterranean.

It will require a more complicated system so that one ruler can't just change the faith of, essentially, an entire continent.
 
  • 6
  • 2Like
Reactions: