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CK3 Dev Diary #86 - Under the Banner

Well met!

There is a possibility you have noticed the colourful banners decorating the halls of the upcoming Royal Court expansion and wondered just how they work. If so, you are in luck!

As I’m sure you’ve heard if you follow these diaries, equippable Artifacts are returning to the franchise in a big way, and banners are one of the types of Court Artifact which can adorn your hall.

wall1.jpg


Banners
There are currently three types of commissionable banner: Dynasty and House banners depict the respective arms of your family, while Realm banners display the arms of a specific title (generally the primary title of the commissioner). These banners are a cut above the standard colors carried by your armies and heralds; heirlooms in their own right.

You may wonder what happens if the design of a crest changes during gameplay, such as after the Norman conquest, or when using the new Coat of Arms designer to make ground-breaking contributions to the field of heraldry.

Never fear, you will not need to commission new banners every time you nudge a fleur-de-lis; the Artifact’s designs are tied to their corresponding dynasty, house, or title, and will automatically reflect the results of your questionable artistic skills.

graphicdesign.jpg


All Courts begin the game with a House banner, and also with a Dynasty banner if the ruler is a Dynasty Head. Additional banners may be commissioned at any time if you employ an Antiquarian. You will also be presented with these banners upon gaining a Court for the first time if relevant, reflecting your new status as a King or Emperor.

wales.jpg


You can also see above that you must be a member of the respective family or cadet branch to gain the full benefits of a Dynasty or House banner. While you may gloat by displaying the banners of other families — acquired through war or subterfuge doing so will only improve your Court’s grandeur.

The three banner types grant different bonuses when equipped, with greater benefits from better quality Artifacts. While House and Realm banners use the same logic as other Artifacts to determine their quality (based on the skill of the weaver and other factors), Dynasty banners are their own breed.

Dynasty Banners
Each Dynasty will generally only have one banner in the world at any given time. Unlike House and Realm banners which can be commissioned at will, Dynasty banners can only be commissioned by Dynasty Heads, and only if one does not already exist within range of you.

However, House Heads of a Dynasty will always have claims on their Dynasty’s banner, allowing them to duel or wage war for them at will.

jimena.jpg


In addition, the quality of a Dynasty banner is directly tied to its Dynasty’s Renown, granting greater benefits as your family’s fame grows.

famed.jpg


The highest tier is unlocked upon reaching Legendary Dynasty Renown level. You may be relieved to hear Dynasty banners will never lose tiers, only gain them.

To avoid unnecessary headaches, the AI knows that a Dynasty banner really belongs to the Dynasty Head, and is inclined to return it to its proper place if it ends up elsewhere, even if they are from another House (as long as they have good relations with them).

War Banners
In addition to these creatable banners, there is also a type gained only by event: the War Banner.

byz.jpg


These captured banners can only be gained after battles, and will display the emblem of the defeated side’s primary title; perfect for commemorating your glorious victories.

Banner Relics
Lastly, there are also some historical banners knocking around, such as the Banner of Muhammad, and others of more dubious provenence may be found by adventurers.

thank.jpg


I hope this has temporarily sated your hunger for banner information. Until next time!
 
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I agree. I think CK3 needs a "Timeline" viewer that marks milestones and major events. Banner changes, new titles created, wars, reformation of a religion, etc. Something like Civ 6's "Historic Moments".
That would be great!
 
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Most courts won't start with something unique. Major courts that are known to have had certain artifacts start with them. Which artifacts and which courts differ depending on the start date but includes the Byzantine, Fatimid, Abbasid, Holy Roman and French courts of the top of my head.
Some lesser relics are also seeded on start in courts around the world for appropriate religions.

Most unique court artifacts will find their way into a court from either being made or found by an adventurer during your game. Adventures is also how some of the unique starting artifacts might resurface if they are destroyed during a game.
I would like to petition for the Sword of Atilla to be held by this guy in 1066:


(note that he does not become Margrave until 1069, but but is likely a count-level ruler under his father in 1066). I think he currently exists in the game files, but is unlanded.
 
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I agree this seems a little bit of a strange one. Medieval wars were started over some really stupid things, but I haven't read about dynastic banners being a particular trophy.

It's great that the devs are trying to provide a wider range of CBs to add flavour, but rather than an automatic CB for Dynasty Banners, a better way to handle this would have been to have events that allow any Artifact to become a CB in certain circumstances. For example, you have a Feast event where something falls off the wall (more likely if court grandeur is low?), an argument starts about who is the rightful owner of a banner/tapestry/other wall decoration, and it ends in a CB. Or a hidden event that is triggered when characters reach Legendary prestige, then has their landed grandchildren fight over their legendary grandparent's Dynastic Banner.


I hope that this is just because the screenshot is capturing one frame of an animation. Real-life people also look a bit weird sometimes if you capture them mid-movement.

P.S. This post is not showing on the front page of the forums for some reason.

I can see going to war over certain artifacts, but a banner or furniture seems odd. Maybe it should be limited based on the type of artifact? I'd also really like to finally see a new CB to recover an imprisoned relative. Much more helpful than a CB to gain an artifact, imo.

I don’t know if I like the fact that the banners can be changed on command. I want to see the history of my dynasty reflected in the different banners I own. Not being able to save the old banners takes away some roleplaying IMO.

It seems to me that banners won't change often. Most changes to banners are from cadet houses and such except when you personally change it. The cadet ones won't change the prior banners, so no issue there. And unless you personally are changing the banners regularly in a game, it shouldn't have much of an effect either. Your dynasty and house ones should remain static without your interference and the title ones will be based on the title, so if you change titles, you'll still have the banners from the old titles. Just because you change from count to emperor doesn't remove the banners/titles that you went through on your journey. It's just that your actual title changes and so your personal banner would be a different one, but you'd still be able to have banners from the other titles unless they take those away from you, which makes no sense (though since you don't have courts (banners) at count or duke rank, it's possible you'll never see those?).
 
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I can see going to war over certain artifacts, but a banner or furniture seems odd. Maybe it should be limited based on the type of artifact? I'd also really like to finally see a new CB to recover an imprisoned relative. Much more helpful than a CB to gain an artifact, imo.
War of the Golden Stool enters the chat
 
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I can see going to war over certain artifacts, but a banner or furniture seems odd. Maybe it should be limited based on the type of artifact? I'd also really like to finally see a new CB to recover an imprisoned relative. Much more helpful than a CB to gain an artifact, imo.
Agreed - seems odd that I as king can declare a war to recapture a banner but that, if my queen or heir has been imprisoned by another ruler, my hands are tied and I’m unable to declare war to rescue them!
 
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Agreed - seems odd that I as king can declare a war to recapture a banner but that, if my queen or heir has been imprisoned by another ruler, my hands are tied and I’m unable to declare war to rescue them!
Agreed. A "Revenge" casus belli would be nice, too. Especially considering that the first thing that the vikings do is kill Aella for murdering their father.

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to lay waste to an enemy's kingdom, razing every town, smashing every castle, executing every prisoner, because of what their leader did to my last son. Sure, he wound up inventing a greenhouse for his troubles, but that doesn't change the fact that he went mad!
 
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I agree. I think CK3 needs a "Timeline" viewer that marks milestones and major events. Banner changes, new titles created, wars, reformation of a religion, etc. Something like Civ 6's "Historic Moments".
As long as it's not like CK2's Chronicle, with its never ending notices of three headed cows and sheep, and ten foot tall women getting crucified...
 
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Agreed - seems odd that I as king can declare a war to recapture a banner but that, if my queen or heir has been imprisoned by another ruler, my hands are tied and I’m unable to declare war to rescue them!
What would stop them from being executed at the moment you start your "rescue" war? The idea of punitive war for some "crimes" makes more sense, as they can't "go away" so easily.
 
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Uhm... Do the banners all look like the ones presented? Mono-Coloured with a Border?
Cause that would be rather boring, IMO.

In fairness, graphic design and the use of Adobe Photoshop weren't that prevalent during the Medieval ages. Mostly, due to lack of education and computers to run this costly software. Yeah, imagine William the Great, crossing the Channel to invade England, with his Anime girl, 3D, holo banner.
 
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What would stop them from being executed at the moment you start your "rescue" war? The idea of punitive war for some "crimes" makes more sense, as they can't "go away" so easily.

it’s a fair point - but I don’t think we should be prevented from launching the war on the basis of that (perhaps very real) risk, as we should be allowed to ‘make mistakes’ in the heat of our anger!

Perhaps if the family member is executed we then get an option to either back down from the war (assuming the enemy is willing to agree to a peace) or alternatively to pursue a revenge casus belli. Rewards for winning a revenge war could include a hefty tribute paid by the enemy as well as a heavy deduction of prestige from them, meaning the stakes are higher for them than if they simply lost or negotiated a peace to a ‘rescue prisoners’ war - this should factor into their decision-making as to whether they execute the prisoner or if, having done so, whether they make a peace deal with an aggressor who is now backing down from the fight. Winning a revenge war should also give you a positive opinion bonus from all of the dead prisoner’s relations (I.e. justice is served).
 
What would stop them from being executed at the moment you start your "rescue" war? The idea of punitive war for some "crimes" makes more sense, as they can't "go away" so easily.
I think that historically, there weren't a lot of kidnapped nobles who were put to death because it would tend to lead to some pretty big retaliation wars. If ransom wasn't an option and the war was coming, I think it more likely they'd have just given up the person, though I could be wrong. Either way, if a prisoner who was a relative was killed, then all the more reason for a CB, so it could just automatically change CB from rescue to revenge and perhaps have different winning/losing results.
 
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Well met!

There is a possibility you have noticed the colourful banners decorating the halls of the upcoming Royal Court expansion and wondered just how they work. If so, you are in luck!

As I’m sure you’ve heard if you follow these diaries, equippable Artifacts are returning to the franchise in a big way, and banners are one of the types of Court Artifact which can adorn your hall.

View attachment 794985

Banners
There are currently three types of commissionable banner: Dynasty and House banners depict the respective arms of your family, while Realm banners display the arms of a specific title (generally the primary title of the commissioner). These banners are a cut above the standard colors carried by your armies and heralds; heirlooms in their own right.

You may wonder what happens if the design of a crest changes during gameplay, such as after the Norman conquest, or when using the new Coat of Arms designer to make ground-breaking contributions to the field of heraldry.

Never fear, you will not need to commission new banners every time you nudge a fleur-de-lis; the Artifact’s designs are tied to their corresponding dynasty, house, or title, and will automatically reflect the results of your questionable artistic skills.

View attachment 794977

All Courts begin the game with a House banner, and also with a Dynasty banner if the ruler is a Dynasty Head. Additional banners may be commissioned at any time if you employ an Antiquarian. You will also be presented with these banners upon gaining a Court for the first time if relevant, reflecting your new status as a King or Emperor.

View attachment 794981

You can also see above that you must be a member of the respective family or cadet branch to gain the full benefits of a Dynasty or House banner. While you may gloat by displaying the banners of other families — acquired through war or subterfuge doing so will only improve your Court’s grandeur.

The three banner types grant different bonuses when equipped, with greater benefits from better quality Artifacts. While House and Realm banners use the same logic as other Artifacts to determine their quality (based on the skill of the weaver and other factors), Dynasty banners are their own breed.

Dynasty Banners
Each Dynasty will generally only have one banner in the world at any given time. Unlike House and Realm banners which can be commissioned at will, Dynasty banners can only be commissioned by Dynasty Heads, and only if one does not already exist within range of you.

However, House Heads of a Dynasty will always have claims on their Dynasty’s banner, allowing them to duel or wage war for them at will.

View attachment 794979

In addition, the quality of a Dynasty banner is directly tied to its Dynasty’s Renown, granting greater benefits as your family’s fame grows.

View attachment 794982

The highest tier is unlocked upon reaching Legendary Dynasty Renown level. You may be relieved to hear Dynasty banners will never lose tiers, only gain them.

To avoid unnecessary headaches, the AI knows that a Dynasty banner really belongs to the Dynasty Head, and is inclined to return it to its proper place if it ends up elsewhere, even if they are from another House (as long as they have good relations with them).

War Banners
In addition to these creatable banners, there is also a type gained only by event: the War Banner.

View attachment 794983

These captured banners can only be gained after battles, and will display the emblem of the defeated side’s primary title; perfect for commemorating your glorious victories.

Banner Relics
Lastly, there are also some historical banners knocking around, such as the Banner of Muhammad, and others of more dubious provenence may be found by adventurers.

View attachment 794984

I hope this has temporarily sated your hunger for banner information. Until next time!
Nice will this introduce customization of flags and banners?
 
Agreed. A "Revenge" casus belli would be nice, too. Especially considering that the first thing that the vikings do is kill Aella for murdering their father.

I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to lay waste to an enemy's kingdom, razing every town, smashing every castle, executing every prisoner, because of what their leader did to my last son. Sure, he wound up inventing a greenhouse for his troubles, but that doesn't change the fact that he went mad!
Seconded for the revenge CB. It's really important especially in the early start date, for example if it weren't for Khosrau II launching one of the most devastating wars in pre-modern history in order to avenge the death of his benefactor at the hands of his traitor general, the Rashidun Caliphate would not have conquered nearly as far as it did and Islam would likely have been a bit player among the world religions.
 
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