CK3 Dev Diary #93 - Turmoil in the Peninsula

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

>Didn't even touch the counties in Portugal, despite the fact that it is the sparsest and least fleshed out part in all of Iberia (despite being the most densely populated, the ingame area represented as county of Portucale had a higher population density than the French average, yet it is A SINGLE county and has larger Baronies than the average French or English county, what's more? It has merely an 8 development, the LOWEST in the entire peninsula)

>Went out of their way to outright remove arguably the most decisive character of 867, count Vimara Peres, who spearhead the largest increase of the Kingdom of Asturias untill the date, and created from scratch what would become the only Iberian county to ever successfully raise to status of Kingdom and rivaling the combined might of every other already established Iberian kingdom combined, because he only FINISHED (the implication being it probably started way earlier) his conquest 1 (ONE) year after the startdate, instead giving the land to Cordoba, which pretty much means a 100% Islamic success rate in West Iberia (it already was basically always happening before anyway), despite the fact that the Catholics had pushed all the way to the Mondego by 873 while on the East the Muslims were still even further north than the Ebro.

They weren't kidding when they opened the DD by saying the focus of the Content Pack is "The Mediterranean Iberia"
Turns out "The Atlantic Iberia" is getting either completely neglected (as usual), or actively worse.

It's Golden Century all over again, Ibiza is more Important than Braga.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Louis the stammer wasn't a fully independent king due to mental incapacity, thats why unlike 2 he is just a count

I can go with that as representing the situation in game - my point though was that the Karlings kept breaking West Francia and Aquitaine up at succession for a few more kings after 867, and then re-inheriting it from a brother or cousin.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Huh, an Iberian Pack. I had them in my "must have" culture packs list for CK3 but didn't expect it that soon. That was foolish on my side as the Iberian Peninsula has already two interesting start dates available. Espescially the 1066 is a rather popular start for the start, on both sides.

I honestly expected a Slavic or a Persian Culture Pack before that but the Slavs are too close to the Norse and the Persians probably need a start date where they have more glamour, like the 935 one.

I just really, really hope that the next Culture Pack won't be a European one. Other regions would need some flavour too (Persia, Tibet, maybe even East Africa).

I'm thinking Persia, India, or the Levant.

 

[Arcvalons]

No dev responses so far

 

[Axuba]

Everything looking really good!

Just a couple of things, the new added county of "Pallas" should be written "Pallars". Pallas doesn't exist at all. Also, and this is on the base game since the start... The county of "Cerdaña" is written "Cerdanya", as in English the official Catalan forms are used.

 

[Arcvalons]

Huh, an Iberian Pack. I had them in my "must have" culture packs list for CK3 but didn't expect it that soon. That was foolish on my side as the Iberian Peninsula has already two interesting start dates available. Espescially the 1066 is a rather popular start for the start, on both sides.

I honestly expected a Slavic or a Persian Culture Pack before that but the Slavs are too close to the Norse and the Persians probably need a start date where they have more glamour, like the 935 one.

I just really, really hope that the next Culture Pack won't be a European one. Other regions would need some flavour too (Persia, Tibet, maybe even East Africa).

At this rate we will not cover all the map with flavour packs by 2030. Better hope the one you want the most isn't one of the last ones!

 

[Lordinquisitor]

Kingdom of Jerusalem would be a good candidate for a struggle zone. Most other places would not. It definitely should not be dynamic/random where the Teutonic Order and the Baltic pagans decide to respect each other's differences and learn to live in peace. More often than not, random struggle zones would surely result in ahistorical silliness. Some groups are just naturally hostile to each other and will always be competitors.

I respectfully disagree that "some groups are just naturally hostile to each other and will always be competitors." That´s a vast oversimplification.

Yes, the teutonic order arrived and went on a protracted and bloody crusade- Sometimes even literally genocidal in nature. (But even so, there were varying stages of escalation, christian rulers, alarmed by the expansion of the knights, teaming up with conquered "pagans", ebbs and flows in the hostilities, christianity being more or less enforced on the populace..)

But by the time you unpause the game, ahistorical stuff will happen. This is inevitable. Ofc, the systems in place should make sense and be coherent.

Say, ingame no crusading order arrives in the area. Would it turn out the same way? No, and that would be ahistorical. But not necessarily nonsensical and silly.

 

[Rudolf Nechvile II]

At least personally, I don't really mind the shorter window before release. I like knowing I won't have long to wait for all the interesting new things they have to show off.

I can see where you're coming from, but if they announce things earlier, there's the chance for the developers to modify things based on feedback and often historical information fans can provide. Every now and again there's a major dud like Golden Century from EU4 and I'm 100% certain they stated in a follow up DD that one of the lessons learned from this (allegedly) is exactly that.

You can also see it in some of the old DD threads from HoI4 where people complain about huge historical issues in some the focus trees, but the devs state that it's too late to fix them before release, and worse yet, these types of issues often just might never get fixed. This problem is very applicable to all Paradox games.

 

[CISAC]

Will the requirements for forming the Kingdom of Portugal finally be changed to be reasonable and NOT include Lisbon and Algarve to be historically accurate?
It's kinda ridiculous right now to need the entirety or modern day Portugal.

 

[Tschobo]

At this rate we will not cover all the map with flavour packs by 2030. Better hope the one you want the most isn't one of the last ones!

Hey, I hope that they will increase the pace of flavour packs and major packs after the situation with Royal Court. I still have my bets on at least one DLC this year.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

>Didn't even touch the counties in Portugal, despite the fact that it is the sparsest and least fleshed out part in all of Iberia (despite being the most densely populated, the ingame area represented as county of Portucale had a higher population density than the French average, yet it has larger Baronies than the average French or English county)

>Went out of their way to outright remove arguably the most decisive character of 867, count Vimara Peres, who spearhead the largest increase of the Kingdom of Asturias untill the date, and created from scratch what would become the only Iberian county to ever succesfully raise to status of Kingdom and rivaling the combined might of every other already established Iberian kingdom combined, because he only FINISHED (the implication being it probably started way earlier) his conquest 1 (ONE) year after the startdate, instead giving the land to Cordoba, which pretty much means a 100% Islamic success rate in West Iberia (it already was basically always happening before anyway), despite the fact that the Catholics had pushed all the way to the Mondego by 873 while on the East the Muslims were still even further north than the Ebro.

They weren't kidding when they opened the DD by saying the focus of the Content Pack is "The Mediterranean Iberia"

Turns out Atlantic Iberia is getting either completely neglected, or actively worse.
It's Golden Century all over again, Ibiza is more Important than Braga.
View attachment 830732

Looking things up, it looks like the land *was* under the Umayyads prior to the 868 foundation of the County (in game Duchy) of Portugal.
Bringing up the status in 873, 6 years after the start date isn't really relevant to what the map should look like in 867.

Your complaint here is like saying that in the 1066 start date William should already be King of England because he conquers it mere months after the start date.

Now, there might be an active war for the land that forms the duchy in question at the start date, possibly even a (not really historical, but used to get the right person in charge) claim war with Perez as the claimant.
If there isn't, that's a reasonable suggestion to make to be added in a minor patch alongside any other scenario tweaks that might be needed.

 

[BoVice9]

I'm excited for the new Iberian content! Can we also expect a sizeable bug fix patch to be released with the flavor pack?

 

[Jia Xu]

I respectfully disagree that "some groups are just naturally hostile to each other and will always be competitors." That´s a vast oversimplification.

Yes, the teutonic order arrived and went on a protracted and bloody crusade- Sometimes even literally genocidal in nature. (But even so, there were varying stages of escalation, christian rulers, alarmed by the expansion of the knights, teaming up with conquered "pagans", ebbs and flows in the hostilities, christianity being more or less enforced on the populace..)

And also, by the time you unpause the game, ahistorical stuff will happen. This is inevitable. Ofc, the systems in place should make sense and be coherent.

But, say, ingame no crusading order arrives in the area. Would it turn out the same way? No, and that would be ahistorical. But not necessarily nonsensical and silly.

In CK3, any religions that see the other as hostile or evil are natural enemies. This is the way of things. The struggle system doesn't add to this at all as enemy religions already want to fight each other. What the struggle system represents is two religions, who see each other as evil, making compromises and agreeing to kind of get along, maybe.

What you are proposing would indeed not just be ahistorical but also quite silly. You would be adding a long-term peace making mechanic all over the world. Congratulations, bro. We formed the United Nations in 950 and medieval Jimmy Carter is being flown in to negotiate eternal peace between Khazaria and Byzantium.

 

[TheRevanchist25]

Hey, I hope that they will increase the pace of flavour packs and major packs after the situation with Royal Court. I still have my bets on at least one DLC this year.

Sounds like they need to copy Stellaris, one team for major expansions, a second team for patches and Flavor Packs, every 3 months we get something. It's the perfect set up and I'm not sure why Paradox isn't copying the formula for all their titles. Stellaris is taking off like a starship as a result of the change (pun totally intended).

 

[Torngasuk]

No dev responses so far

Given the delay of the dev diary, it's 9:41 PM in Sweden right now: I would hope they've gone home for the day and will start replying tomorrow.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

Looking things up, it looks like the land *was* under the Umayyads prior to the 868 foundation of the County (in game Duchy) of Portugal.
Bringing up the status in 873, 6 years after the start date isn't really relevant to what the map should look like in 867.

Your complaint here is like saying that in the 1066 start date William should already be King of England because he conquers it mere months after the start date.

Now, there might be an active war for the land that forms the duchy in question at the start date, possibly even a (not really historical, but used to get the right person in charge) claim war with Perez as the claimant.
If there isn't, that's a reasonable suggestion to make to be added in a minor patch alongside any other scenario tweaks that might be needed.

Name a source that actually states it was under Muslim ocupation in 867 (Wikipedia doesn't count, because it doesn't name a single source whenever it mentions this supposed Moorish occupation, there is however, written evidence that Muslim garrisons withdrew to south of the Duero in 756, which indirectly hints to it not being under muslim occupation in 867).
As far as we know, its status prior to the foundation of the county was as ambiguous as all the other holdings in the "Desert of the Duero" (A no-man's land) such as Zamora, Benevento.
Also, explain why Benevento and Zamora should start as part of Asturias in the first place when the earliest estimation of their settlement is 888. Later than Coimbra even.
Seems like a completely different standard.

And i didnt bring up the status 6 years later (That's for the duchy of Coimbra), i brought it up 1 year later, and considering the logistics of the time, the invasion/settlement/whatever had necessarily already started in 867 in order for an entirely new political entity to be running by 868, so even if Portucale was to start under Islamic occupation, Vimara Peres should be a "William The Conqueror"-esque character which would start landed and with a claim or maybe even already waging a war for it (with an almost certain chance of victory).

In gameplay terms, the title of "Duchy of Portucale" was created in 868, but we don't know anything about when was the land invaded, occupied or annexed by Asturias.

 

[Tschobo]

Sounds like they need to copy Stellaris, one team for major expansions, a second team for patches and Flavor Packs, every 3 months we get something. It's the perfect set up and I'm not sure why Paradox isn't copying the formula for all their titles. Stellaris is taking off like a starship as a result of the change (pun totally intended).

Espescially as CK3 has still huge potential in my eyes. Therefore I would even say that it would be fun if they announce another Flavour Pack before a Major Pack. Like Stellaris did with Lithoids and Federations. Like release another Flavour Pack like Levante, Tibet or Persia in Autumn and then the next Major Pack in February or March. With this a conntinous flow of new gameplay would be guaranteed and the wait for Major Packs wouldn't be that long.

The only things that suffer would be our wallets though.

 

[RedMedal001]

Greetings!

Winter is slowly fading behind us (at least in the northern hemisphere), and spring is starting to take over. A new season calls for an announcement. I’m happy to present you with our next Flavor Pack: Fate of Iberia, due to be released on the 31st of May! We are obviously talking about Mediterranean Iberia, not the former Kingdom in Georgia.

In addition to being one of the most played regions, the Iberian peninsula is interesting because of the complexity of the geopolitical situation, and the richness of the events occurring during the time period of Crusader Kings 3. It gives us a good opportunity to bring more flavor for both the Christians and Muslims living there.

With this new flavor pack, we want to offer you the opportunity to truly decide the fate of the whole peninsula, either by reenacting history or creating an alternative that pleases you more. In order to model the complexity of the situation, we are introducing a new system, the Struggle. It will be changing the rules and increasing the challenge for the rulers within the Iberian peninsula. You can have an idea of how the game will be affected in the screenshot below. The effects will vary a lot depending on the stage of the struggle, but we will go into details in the next dev diary

View attachment 830547
The Struggle will both create new opportunities and add constraints for the rulers within Iberia.

A new 867 bookmark features a revamped Iberian cast of characters, giving players the perfect place to jump in and deflect history as they see fit. The Struggle will persist into the 1066 start date as well. The bookmark lets you choose between different vassals, either from the Christian Kingdoms, or Al-Andalus. Each of them offers different starting challenges and choices.. For instance, in the south, Emir Adanis and Ibn Marwan are both Dukes under the Sultanate of Al-Andalus. But they also are neighbors and rivals. Starting with one of them will certainly imply crossing swords and scheming against the other.

View attachment 830533The new 867 bookmark will be available for everyone, while being more interesting to experience if you own Fate of Iberia


We also seized the opportunity to update the map, refining the county and duchy divisions, as well as the cultures and faiths. This means the stage is more accurately set for the start of our game.

View attachment 830535
We mostly focused on the Northern part of the region.

View attachment 830536
The new culture set up for the year 867


View attachment 830537
The new faith set up for the year 867


You might have noticed the addition of the Mozarabic faith, but again, we will detail that in a future dev diary, along with the rest of the content you can expect from a Flavor Pack!

We are excited to go into the details and share all of this with you in the coming weeks! Until then, I wish you a lovely day and enjoy the trailer!

Cheers,

P.S.: While we do not expect the save versions to be incompatible, please make sure you wrap up your previous playthrough to ensure a seamless transition. If you encounter issues, you can of course roll these saves back to a previous version UNLESS you are playing in Ironman.

This looks lovely and the Steam page shows even more cool stuff, so I'm very hyped with this Flavour Pack!
However I must say that I was hoping Portugal to get a bit more love, perhaps having that Galician culture be Porto-Galician and separating to Galician and Portuguese cultures if the Kingdom of Portugal forms and a correction in the borders of the Duchy of Galicia and the duchies of de jure Portugal as they are quite strange right now, it's sad to see from the screenshots that the de jure counties remain the same, and while it's only some counties that got re-arranged in eastern Iberia, it would be good to see the borders in Portugal and Galicia to receive some updates and maybe one or two new counties.
I'm noneless really hyped for this, glad to see we have more deep regional content comming!

 

[Lordinquisitor]

In CK3, any religions that see the other as hostile or evil are natural enemies. This is the way of things. The struggle system doesn't add to this at all as enemy religions already want to fight each other. What the struggle system represents is two religions, who see each other as evil, making compromises and agreeing to kind of get along, maybe.

What you are proposing would indeed not just be ahistorical but also quite silly. You would be adding a long-term peace making mechanic all over the world. Congratulations, bro. We formed the United Nations in 950 and medieval Jimmy Carter is being flown in to negotiate eternal peace between Khazaria and Byzantium.

Ofc the system shouldn´t always lead to peace, i don´t quite get while you assume that it should and would. The iberian struggle didn´t end in two religions peacefully coexisting ever after either and the dev´s would be amiss not to account for this possibility.

Peace should be possible, yes, but dynamic. As we can see in the screenshot- Certain actions would foster peace, others wars and conflict, and everything in between depending again on the actions of the actors, and the player(s), involved.

 

[Jia Xu]

Ofc the system shouldn´t always lead to peace, i don´t quite get while you assume that it should and would. The iberian struggle didn´t end in two religions peacefully coexisting ever after, either and the dev´s would be amiss not to account for this possibility.

Peace should be possible, yes, but dynamic. As we can see in the screenshot- Certain actions would foster peace, others wars and conflict, and everything in between.

I am not assuming that, though. I am explaining to you that this system only adds an extra peace mechanic. If they're going to just fight, then they don't need to be struggle zones. Enemy religions are already fighting each other, without additional mechanics. What you're suggesting is that entire regions should randomly become candidates for eternal love zones.

No, there should not be strange ahistorical permanent peace mechanics all over the globe. That is not what CK3 is about. I don't ever want to see a pop up explaining that the Mongols decided to peacefully coexist with Iranians. It is silly!