CK3 Dev Diary #93 - Turmoil in the Peninsula

[ccheekii]

meh. I've never been interested in playing anywhere in the Iberian region. I'll be getting this flavor pack for free since I pre-ordered the game, though I wish I could swap it for a future, possibly more interesting (to me) one.
sorry to break the wave of positivity
on another note, how come there are no pops in CK3?

 

[Antimonum]

Nice to have Iberia represented. Nice culture portraits. But there are problems already as I see this dev diary.

I do not agree with two core mechanics of the DLC as I noticed.:

First of all, the status quo decision, giving willy nilly Kingdoms the empire status out of a struggle mechanics, has no basis in history. Even some of the Kingdoms that split by succession de jure in Iberia have no place being Kingdoms. At least Catholics should always get their empire status in the medieval era only as a granted title from the pope or at least with owning massive lands. now if I conquer Iberia as an empire, I would split on 10 other empires on succession in Iberia because the AI pressed a button a couple of years ago, or at least it seams so.

Second I was yet again unpleasantly surprised to see catholic converted ex Muslim kings to keep their Clan government and with it its naming system and coat of Arms. This has wider and bigger implications than Iberia that make it so that, that for exemple Turkic cultures (Avars, Bolghars and Kazhars), that migrated early medieval/late antiquity in Europe and had little interaction with Islam (Iknow there are exeptions on Volga but those happen later in history) always spawn as clan government on castles or get their Dynasty name as State name, if they reform to feudalism from tribal.

 

[Vanticus]

No dev responses so far

They posted at the end of the workday in Stockholm, which is a pretty convenient way of not having to reply until tomorrow.

 

[Azkiol]

on another note, how come there are no pops in CK3?

Preformance.

We do need a stronger economy system though. Perhaps something like I:R trade but fleshed out a bit more?

 

[PedroLuiz]

>Didn't even touch the counties in Portugal, despite the fact that it is the sparsest and least fleshed out part in all of Iberia (despite being the most densely populated, the ingame area represented as county of Portucale had a higher population density than the French average, yet it is A SINGLE county and has larger Baronies than the average French or English county, what's more? It has merely an 8 development, the LOWEST in the entire peninsula)

>Went out of their way to outright remove arguably the most decisive character of 867, count Vimara Peres, who spearhead the largest increase of the Kingdom of Asturias untill the date, and created from scratch what would become the only Iberian county to ever successfully raise to status of Kingdom and rivaling the combined might of every other already established Iberian kingdom combined, because he only FINISHED (the implication being it probably started way earlier) his conquest 1 (ONE) year after the startdate, instead giving the land to Cordoba, which pretty much means a 100% Islamic success rate in West Iberia (it already was basically always happening before anyway), despite the fact that the Catholics had pushed all the way to the Mondego by 873 while on the East the Muslims were still even further north than the Ebro.

They weren't kidding when they opened the DD by saying the focus of the Content Pack is "The Mediterranean Iberia"
Turns out Atlantic Iberia is getting either completely neglected, or actively worse.

It's Golden Century all over again, Ibiza is more Important than Braga.

Paradox hates Portugal, what's new?

 

[Jia Xu]

on another note, how come there are no pops in CK3?

1. System resources: This game already often gets very laggy because it is trying to manage 10,000 characters and titles at once.
2. Opportunity cost: As a consequence of having, at most, two hands, sending the team to script POPs into 2,000 provinces means not having them make anything else with that time and money
3. Most peoples are particularly poor stewards of their own histories during this time. We don't know exactly who lives where and when for many regions and Paradox would be largely making it up. Were there 50 households of Jews living in Yangikent in 867? No idea as they people who lived there during that time didn't record a census.

 

[TheRevanchist25]

Espescially as CK3 has still huge potential in my eyes. Therefore I would even say that it would be fun if they announce another Flavour Pack before a Major Pack. Like Stellaris did with Lithoids and Federations. Like release another Flavour Pack like Levante, Tibet or Persia in Autumn and then the next Major Pack in February or March. With this a conntinous flow of new gameplay would be guaranteed and the wait for Major Packs wouldn't be that long.

The only things that suffer would be our wallets though.

I mean...we're talking about Paradox here...that's gonna happen regardless.

 

[Lordinquisitor]

I am not assuming that, though. I am explaining to you that this system only adds an extra peace mechanic. If they're going to just fight, then they don't need to be struggle zones. Enemy religions are already fighting each other, without additional mechanics. What you're suggesting is that entire regions should randomly become candidates for eternal love zones.

No, there should not be strange ahistorical permanent peace mechanics all over the globe. That is not what CK3 is about. I don't ever want to see a pop up explaining that the Mongols decided to peacefully coexist with Iranians. It is silly!

No, what i would like to see would be systems which would replace the current, very basic, systems with something more intricate. Systems which allow for, as teased, interreligious intermarriage. Opportunists like El Cid sometimes fighting against muslims, sometimes for them. The level of hostilities increasing, and decreasing. Cultures and religions intermingling and flourishing and brutally fighting each other.

I would want additional systems in place which portray how such conflicts played out historically, instead of the system we currently have in game, where two religions pretty much have a set relationship with each other. (With cultural acceptance being a recent improvement in this regard.)

And btw- The mongols are perhaps a bad example, considering that, their conquest eventually stopped, the realm split into several successor states with varying relationships between mongols/conquered people/neighbouring realms, talks of a mongol-crusader alliance against the muslims, and missions between mongol and christian courts, conquests and brutal genocide mixed with religious tolerance, ongoing peace and exchange, and on and on on.

Like, i dunno. Pick three long lasting conflicts on wikipedia or the quality history book of your choice. I don´t want total war, or total peace, but a slice of these complex dynamics and realities found therein.

 

[TheRevanchist25]

Preformance.

We do need a stronger economy system though. Perhaps something like I:R trade but fleshed out a bit more?

Sinews of War adds some basic economy aspects that add some needed flavor to the experience, would recommend checking it out.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2566883856

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

one or two new counties.

Spliting the Portucale and Coimbra counties in two halves each (adding Minho/Braga and Estremadura/Leiria) would already be a massive improvement.

 

[PedroLuiz]

However I must say that I was hoping Portugal to get a bit more love

why?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

And i didnt bring up the status 6 years later (That's for the duchy of Coimbra), i brought it up 1 year later, and considering the logistics of the time, the invasion/settlement/whatever had necessarily already started in 867 in order for an entirely new political entity to be running by 868, so even if Portucale was to start under Islamic occupation, Vimara Peres should be a "William The Conqueror"-esque character which would start landed and with a claim or maybe even already waging a war for it (with an almost certain chance of victory).

despite the fact that the Catholics had pushed all the way to the Mondego by 873 while on the East the Muslims were still even further north than the Ebro.

There's you bringing up the status 6 years later. The Mondego being in Portugal suggests that you're bringing up the status in that area, and that the push to Mondego happened *from* the county.

I also suggested that having Peres being the claimant in an active war would give a good chance of him getting the county/duchy.

Name a source that actually states it was under Muslim ocupation in 867 (Wikipedia doesn't count, because it doesn't name a single source whenever it mentions this supposed Moorish occupation, there is however, written evidence that Muslim garrisons withdrew to south of the Duero in 756, which indirectly hints to it not being under muslim occupation in 867).

You suggesting that Peres spearheaded the increase in territory certainly suggests that it was won from the Muslims - unless you want the game to treat the area as occupied by an independent entity? After all, someone has to own it. Otherwise what territorial conquests did he spearhead?
I'll admit I don't have a main source, but your suggestion that he took that land (Coimbra being taken by someone else, and given a range of dates (possibly the conquest of the land, the granting of the title, and the point that effective control of the land was taken)) has him taking it from **someone**. Who do you suggest that someone was?
Also a withdrawal in 756 doesn't mean that they hadn't come back in the intervening 110 years, although it does suggest it's possible no-one had effective or complete control of the area. Alternatively, in line with Benevente as I mention below, perhaps the withdrawal across the Duero was in that region, not in what became Portugal?

As far as we know, its status prior to the foundation of the county was as ambiguous as all the other holdings in the "Desert of the Duero" (A no-man's land) such as Zamora, Benevento.
Also, explain why Benevento and Zamora should start as part of Asturias in the first place when the earliest estimation of their settlement is 888. Later than Coimbra even.

I don't know. Looking in game it appears that Benevente has history of being held by the Christians from 754, so I would suggest that Paradox have sources showing the land (if not the cities) having been held from that point, or at least that they held the majority of it sufficiently strongly to give the title to them. I'm drawing a blank on being able to follow that up.
I also don't know why Zamora has been given to the Christians either - although again Paradox probably have some sources that persuaded them to give the title to them (from 855) rather than to the Muslims who held it previously to that. That would suggest they have some record of a conquest of the land making the majority of the province, (again if not the cities).

 

[adca85]

An interesting dilemma.

"Every region feels the same."

"Here, have some region-specific stuff."

"This should be available everywhere."

 

[Druplesnubb]

The struggle is real

 

[daxtexoscuro]

I hope we'll get some nice music! Inspired by the Cantigas or the Llivre Vermell de Montserrat. Spanish Medieval music is a treasure.

 

[Gwydden]

That was fast. Didn't Royal Court come out only a few months ago?

 

[AvengedK1ng]

Everything looking really good!

Just a couple of things, the new added county of "Pallas" should be written "Pallars". Pallas doesn't exist at all. Also, and this is on the base game since the start... The county of "Cerdaña" is written "Cerdanya", as in English the official Catalan forms are used.

Catalonia launched with 15th century cities, not surprised

 

[AvengedK1ng]

This looks lovely and the Steam page shows even more cool stuff, so I'm very hyped with this Flavour Pack!
However I must say that I was hoping Portugal to get a bit more love, perhaps having that Galician culture be Porto-Galician and separating to Galician and Portuguese cultures if the Kingdom of Portugal forms and a correction in the borders of the Duchy of Galicia and the duchies of de jure Portugal as they are quite strange right now, it's sad to see from the screenshots that the de jure counties remain the same, and while it's only some counties that got re-arranged in eastern Iberia, it would be good to see the borders in Portugal and Galicia to receive some updates and maybe one or two new counties.
I'm noneless really hyped for this, glad to see we have more deep regional content comming!

Seeing as we're likely to get inbuilt event chains i can see portugal routinely forming as historically did

 

[PedroLuiz]

You suggesting that Peres spearheaded the increase in territory certainly suggests that it was won from the Muslims - unless you want the game to treat the area as occupied by an independent entity? After all, someone has to own it.

the region he's talking about was depopulated at the time

Otherwise what territorial conquests did he spearhead?

Portucale

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

There's you bringing up the status 6 years later. The Mondego being in Portugal suggests that you're bringing up the status in that area, and that the push to Mondego happened *from* the county.

My point on the Mondego/Ebro was not related with the status of the county of Portucale.
It was related to the gameplay situation of greatly weakening the Catholic position in relation to the Islamic one on the Atlantic coast with this change, when in real life, 867 was the start of the largest Catholic territorial gains until Las Navas de Tolosa 400 years later, I don't see this ever happening unless there is some sort of scripted events down the road that railroad this Catholic success in Portucale and Coimbra.

I also suggested that having Peres being the claimant in an active war would give a good chance of him getting the county/duchy.

And i agree.

You suggesting that Peres spearheaded the increase in territory certainly suggests that it was won from the Muslims - unless you want the game to treat the area as occupied by an independent entity? After all, someone has to own it. Otherwise what territorial conquests did he spearhead?

Asturian, Independent or Cordoban, i don't really mind who owns it, I would just like Peres to be playable and able to take the land fairly consistently.

I'll admit I don't have a main source, but your suggestion that he took that land (Coimbra being taken by someone else, and given a range of dates (possibly the conquest of the land, the granting of the title, and the point that effective control of the land was taken)) has him taking it from **someone**. Who do you suggest that someone was?

Again, i am not very much concerned with who owns it at the start, i am more concerned with the accuracy of the general area being completely jeopardized throught the entire timeframe in an attempt to get a single year right.

Also a withdrawal in 756 doesn't mean that they hadn't come back in the intervening 110 years, although it does suggest it's possible no-one had effective or complete control of the area. Alternatively, in line with Benevente as I mention below, perhaps the withdrawal across the Duero was in that region, not in what became Portugal?

I know, as I said, I don't know for sure what was the exact situation in this exact year, nobody does, the sources are few none specifically mention 867.
When I claim Portucale should already start as part of Asturias is more out of concern that the AI is never going to be able to sieze it in 1 year gameplay (or ever), and even if they do, Peres is probably not going to be the one to do it and the situation is going to generally spiral out of historical accuracy from the get go in typical sandbox fashion.

Having Vimara Peres "anachronistically" start as count of Portucale 1 year earlier would be an incredibly meaningless historical compromise that would fix itself 2 mins after you pressed play.

By taking the "conquest at 868" narrative literally and uncompromisingly, you are sabotaging the rest of the game's worth of accuracy for a 1 year pseudo-accuracy.