CO Word of the Week #1

[Larva]

Hopefully today's patch will have a positive impact on your gaming experience, see the patch notes here
I'll get back you next week with more info on what we are working on (SPOILER: It's dirty work).

I would HIGHLY recommend you guys work with PDX to get the same benefits on this forum as PDX employees - specifically where users can press the button to see 'Dev responses'. This option has tremendous benefits for customer communication and one way or another - this forum is an important chanell of communication for your (nice and lovely) products. Also, I don't think it will be much of a trouble

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

Ah thank you.

Why do CO devs not have the dev highlighting? Makes it really hard to know if some bug/question has already been commented on. (This goes not to you, but to the PDX forum team: Please fix!)

I would HIGHLY recommend you guys work with PDX to get the same benefits on this forum as PDX employees - specifically where users can press the button to see 'Dev responses'. This option has tremendous benefits for customer communication and one way or another - this forum is an important chanell of communication for your (nice and lovely) products. Also, I don't think it will be much of a trouble

Good point.

I made an according suggestion at the appropriate place. You could have done it by yourself, though

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[neroden]

Can we be thrown a bone in terms of...when to expect another patch? I love how we know when we can expect paid DLC but not when we can expect the game to have literally any fixes applied.

I am in love with this game, I bought a new PC for it, and I cannot stop playing and looking at forums and reddit about it, and the music is all stuck in my head at all times, but it is *broken*. Almost nothing works as intended. A drip feed of hotfixes would go a long way right now.

The game is so fundamentally busted in a lot of ways that you'd think this company would be on fire, rushing to make amends and pumping out hotfixes like it's nobody's business, but it really doesn't seem like there's any urgency at all. No announcement of a timeframe means probably not this week, which means the game gets dumped out clearly incomplete and just...sits there for two weeks??? That's so crazy.

I'm a programmer. You can't rush debugging, it doesn't work...

The fundamental problem is that this should never have been released as "1.0" while it still needed extensive beta testing.

If there is a way to retroactively mark the game as Early Access and offer a refund to anyone who didn't want an Early Access game, I would do it.

If Paradox, who already has a very bad reputation for releasing games broken as if they were ready, leaned on Colossal Order to do a "1.0" release rather than marking it as Early Access, then CO really needs to take this up with Paradox -- it's extremely reputation-damaging.

 

[Ranamar]

Hopefully today's patch will have a positive impact on your gaming experience, see the patch notes here
I'll get back you next week with more info on what we are working on (SPOILER: It's dirty work).

I would deeply enjoy a report on why garbage seems to multiply like Tribbles inside garbage trucks. (assuming the bug turns out to be interesting and not just, like, a wild pointer or something)

 

[CosmicFurFace]

I've not yet been able to get a city to fail. I'm not even sure it's possible. I can send the city into the red and poof! there's a government subsidy covering me, with no rhyme or reason for its existence, nor any way to know how the amount was calculated, nor any way to avoid it, nor any way to turn it off entirely.

I'd love to play further with things like garbage management (aware that incinerators are confirmed bugged atm), but why? What incentive is there if not only does everything continue running without it but it continues running and making a profit?

Given the responses from the devs today, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that some of it will make more sense if the simulation data is better exposed to the player. But aside from that, a game without a challenge isn't really a game, so it's frustrating to hear that many of these things were design choices.

It has occurred to me playing CS2 that there's a need for a "level" setting, "easy" --> "hard.

Some folks want a sandbox, with some levers to push and such as they build their happy city. Others want a real simulation, where stupidity has a cost. There's no way both will be satisfied with the same simulation.

From the look of the game (and things like "government subsidies" that exist already), I'd expect such an addition to be one of the less-harrowing changes CO devs are looking at. Both styles deserve a game they enjoy playing, and the core of CS2 looks like it could satisfy them all. Given time and effort.

I'm glad the game wasn't delayed. I'm glad the steam update wasn't delayed. I'm saddened at the performance snafu, moreso considering it could've been greatly reduced if the release included "low" gameplay settings that worked and could be raised until your rig choked, rather than "high" settings that caused smoke (both rig and player) and complaints. That's mainly a PR issue, but that's true of most of the world's problems as well.

Good luck to all at CO, and please keep in mind those of us who've bought the game in faith that you will come through for us.

 

[CosmicFurFace]

To be fair, its not uncommon to see confused, uneducated children driving cars by themselves in the first game.

To be truly fair, it's not uncommon to see confused, educated children driving cars by themselves in my irl neighborhood. And their parents are worse.

 

[Duke49th]

They haven't mentioned it in the patch notes, but on my end, the issue with "fake economy" is being fixed.
No more goods will be produced or industry/commercial buildings/zones will have employees anymore without any outside connection.
This is after around 5-10 minutes running on full speed:

https://imgur.com/yFauc0j

 

[Schm1dt]

They haven't mentioned it in the patch notes, but on my end, the issue with "fake economy" is being fixed.
No more goods will be produced or industry/commercial buildings/zones will have employees anymore without any outside connection.
This is after around 5-10 minutes running on full speed:

https://imgur.com/yFauc0j

It isn't. You don't have residential zone. If you biuld it even without outside connection - workers will spawn.

 

[Duke49th]

It isn't. You don't have residential zone. If you biuld it even without outside connection - workers will spawn.View attachment 1040778

But that's the point. Before it worked without residential zones.

But you're right!

The houses in a residential zone, as soon as they are being built (plopped), will have citizens. The houses are so to say equipped with residents, like the cole power plant has 5t of cole, when you build it.

Of course that's now how it is supposed to be (I'm ok with the power plant coming with a small amount of cole...I talk about houses coming with residentials).

On the other hand, the industry still does not produce goods now without resources, unlike prior the patch. That's already good news.

And ideally no buildings could be build without outside connection due to missing materials to build houses. But I am not sure if that was even a planned feature in the simulation.

Edit:

It's actually slightly worse, now that I have checked it.

Not only the houses have citizens, therefore the industry has workers. But also there are, regarding the city stats, no citizens in the city, yet I have a death rate of 4.

It's pretty much broken. Seems like the citizens are kind of placeholder until they can arrive from outside in physical form. Have to further test it.

But as said, at least no magic production of goods and no magic spawn of citizens without residential area.

@co_martsu Please have a look and take notes. You're half way there. You already fixed the "fake simulation" mostly. Please finalize the fix/change that is needed.

 

[Schm1dt]

But that's the point. Before it worked without residential zones.

But you're right!

The houses in a residential zone, as soon as they are being built (plopped), will have citizens. The houses are so to say equipped with residents, like the cole power plant has 5t of cole, when you build it.

Of course that's now how it is supposed to be (I'm ok with the power plant coming with a small amount of cole...I talk about houses coming with residentials).

On the other hand, the industry still does not produce goods now without resources, unlike prior the patch. That's already good news.

And ideally no buildings could be build without outside connection due to missing materials to build houses. But I am not sure if that was even a planned feature in the simulation.

Edit:

It's actually slightly worse, now that I have checked it.

Not only the houses have citizens, therefore the industry has workers. But also there are, regarding the city stats, no citizens in the city, yet I have a death rate of 4.

It's pretty much broken. Seems like the citizens are kind of placeholder until they can arrive from outside in physical form. Have to further test it.

But as said, at least no magic production of goods and no magic spawn of citizens without residential area.

@co_martsu Please have a look and take notes. You're half way there. You already fixed the "fake simulation" mostly. Please finalize the fix/change that is needed.

Houses don't spawn with people. You can open a house and check where the occupants are. They are standing on the road behind the map borders, waiting for a connection to the city to be built.
So all those workers are dead souls.

 

[Duke49th]

Houses don't spawn with people. You can open a house and check where the occupants are. They are standing on the road behind the map borders, waiting for a connection to the city to be built.
So all those workers are dead souls.

Yep.

And further:

It took a looooong while to show. But the Simulation is still fake. Damn it.

It took me a while now to prepare the bug report. But now that it is finish, I see trucks driving around delivering goods. Despite no resources available for the industry to produce anything.

Sadly I was wrong...I just didn't wait long enough. It's still fake.

 

[Duke49th]

Houses don't spawn with people. You can open a house and check where the occupants are. They are standing on the road behind the map borders, waiting for a connection to the city to be built.
So all those workers are dead souls.

I have reported it here:

Economy simulation still "fake" or broken - Industry ghost resources

Information When reporting a crash, stability or performance problems, please use the Report a Crash button on the earlier screen [CLICK] I understand Required Summary Economy simulation still "fake" or broken Steps to reproduce Just place a...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

And the residential/citizen issue separated again:

Residential houses come with citizens "eqquiped" - they don't need to move in as supposed to be

Information When reporting a crash, stability or performance problems, please use the Report a Crash button on the earlier screen [CLICK] I understand Required Summary Residential houses come with citizens "eqquiped" - they don't need to move in...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Feel free to add info/comments etc.

Now they can at least not "overlook" the issue and claims that their economy is broken/fake. (whatever it is...I thought it can't be a bug. But seems like they delivered us a game in Alpha state...so I give them the benefit of a doubt...although I am totally not happy with this )

@co_martsu

 

[Larva]

my brother in christ, HE SHUT OFF THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. OF COURSE IT TAKES OVER THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

Have you noticed that when you DON'T shut off the entire system, it DOESN'T take over the entire system?

Did you guys pass 5th grade? We had to learn about the scientific method to make it to middle school when I was in 5th grade.

You want to jab? Sure
Well, that school of yours sure did not do its job well. Maybe that was a fake school with a fake teacher? And all you got is failsafe taking over so you pretend to know what's scientific method is?
Now, can we set aside pointy things? I will try, but just one time

In the case when entire system is shut off, it should stay shut, not become a zombie. Imagine you have a simulation of a car, very intricate simulation, not an arcade NFS. Imagine you did not put a fuel into your car as part of this simulation. And then it still starts rolling when you press gas! Because 'failsafe added imaginary fuel into the system, so that in case you ever forget to add more fuel - simulation will still goin to run!'. That's absurd example, ofc - but the situation we have with simulation in this game actually is too - absurd.

And for the second point - no, I do not notice that. What I notice, is that city is weird... Something is amiss, something with my city is not right. Usual progressing, nice and tidy roads, some train station... Nothing helps, still this eerie feeling of....the void. Trying to pinpoint what it is led me to this forum - and badumsss - actually what I experienced was experienced in various degrees by others! And limits testing just proves this so glaringly - simulation is not correct, not correct to the point one can even have enough proof to say it's fake.

 

[shells0ck]

To call the state of the game Alpha is a bit a reach don't you think? The decision to release the game on PC on the announced date was made based on careful consideration. The decision was influenced by us having confidence in the gameplay, having data that the game is running well enough on a variety of hardware and not wanting to disappoint the players waiting so eagerly to play the game. We can debate if this was the right call, but does it make any difference now after the game is out? I'd rather have us focus on solutions so that everyone who likes the game can play it and enjoy it.
Colossal Order is an independent game developer owned by key members of the team so there are no investors that we would need to please on our side. When it comes to the pricing we leave that to the capable hands of our publisher.

When the fundamental game mechanics and economy are broken, how can you say its not? You did not need your user base to tell you about all these obvious bugs, you already knew, or none of you have played the game. You decided to ruin your reputation because "players waiting so eagerly"?

Are you really telling people it doesnt make a difference because its now released? Really? Thats what car manufacturers should tell their customers too when you run off a cliff because the brakes are not working? How about an apology for treating your player base like this and refrain from pushing paid DLCs for a year until people get what they paid for?

 

[MTO35]

Many people say that the development team behind Cities Skylines is too small. I can only disagree with that, because there is a game in the genre, which is more between Anno and Citise Skylines, that has done almost everything right, namely Highrise City, where mainly only three people worked on it and all of that their leisure time alongside their main jobs. Even only one of them was responsible for the coding and all of this in conjunction with the Unreal Engine, which is now not as developer-friendly as other engines (e.g. Unity). The game was in early access for over a year and it sometimes worked better than Cities Skylines 2 at full price. You didn't need YouTubers to advertise, you just listened to the community.

 

[∆tlαntic4]

Many people say that the development team behind Cities Skylines is too small. I can only disagree with that, because there is a game in the genre, which is more between Anno and Citise Skylines, that has done almost everything right, namely Highrise City, where mainly only three people worked on it and all of that their leisure time alongside their main jobs. Even only one of them was responsible for the coding and all of this in conjunction with the Unreal Engine, which is now not as developer-friendly as other engines (e.g. Unity). The game was in early access for over a year and it sometimes worked better than Cities Skylines 2 at full price. You didn't need YouTubers to advertise, you just listened to the community.

This is true, indie games developed by three people are managing to deliver a better city-building simulation than CS2. I'm very disappointed with the current state of the game. I wonder how many developers are on the CO team because we know there are 30 people; could it be that half of them are in marketing? LOL

It's okay that CS2 is also in an unofficially announced early access state, but the pace of updates for a team of 30 people seems quite slow.

A lot of bugs, an economy that doesn't work, and basic issues make us question the quality control process before this version 1.0 was released.

It would have been much better if the game had been delayed for a few months instead of disappointing the expectations of many players. Perhaps even the CEO was not aware of the terrible conditions of the current state of the game and made the decision not to postpone the release date.

 

[Foxosaur]

This could be comparing apples to oranges but TaleWorlds released BannerLord in a similar state (though it was called early access).

The game's gpu usage was off the charts and hard to run for a lot of people and within I'd say 6 months, this was in a far better place but they caused other annoyances like not honouring their fan base and a lot of their forum community are very disquiet about it, even to now. That game has turned out ok just missing content to a lot of peoples eyes.

But I haven't purchased CS2 yet, will wait to see if things continue going on in a positive direction. And see if there is a absence of other things that performance is talking over.

 

[Abitus]

Many people say that the development team behind Cities Skylines is too small. I can only disagree with that, because there is a game in the genre, which is more between Anno and Citise Skylines, that has done almost everything right, namely Highrise City, where mainly only three people worked on it and all of that their leisure time alongside their main jobs. Even only one of them was responsible for the coding and all of this in conjunction with the Unreal Engine, which is now not as developer-friendly as other engines (e.g. Unity). The game was in early access for over a year and it sometimes worked better than Cities Skylines 2 at full price. You didn't need YouTubers to advertise, you just listened to the community.

This.

Since CS2 release day I'm asking myself why nobody is talking about HC. I started to think it was to please moderation so I didn't say anything myself.

But I mean, you want a modern city builder with a working and well thought simulation? It's there. And its gameplay is muuuuuuch less confusing than CS2.

To be fair, traffic management, public transports and free citypainting are its downsides, as well as a bunch of small bugs (which are mostly insignificant compared to CS2 bugs). CS1 was much better on these particular points. But CS2 is actually worse on some aspects.

This is also why my last post in here was about CS2 not being a proper city painter despite what people are saying. Because city painting is the spot where it should be easily better than HC, while on the subject of gameplay and economy simulation, competition is a harder challenge (not so far to say "already lost").

 

[maarten_714]

I am not saying to delay steam updates. I am just looking for information on whether that will be what happens or not. Then I can make an informed decision on how I would like to proceed with the game.

Ultimately I would like for the Game Pass version to be released sooner. Waiting a day longer wouldn't be a big problem but 1 week is not really good enough for a game that needs so many patches.

The problem here is Microsoft.

Paradox/CO merely make the patch, compile the code, and release it to all platforms at the SAME time.

What happens after that.... is out of their control. Steam doesn't do a quality control check, or perhaps due to the way things are setup they may not need one, or it is all automated. Microsoft Game Pass has people checking patches, and that takes some time.

Unless you find a way to light a fire under Microsoft's behind, I think this is how it is going to be over the course of the game over the many years to come. Basically, the Gamepass version will just always be 1 week behind. You'll get all the same patches. All the same fixes. Just one week later.

And unless someone has power to influence Microsoft, that is how it will be. If you do want the patches the fastest..... the only way would be to get the steam version.

 

[Borgratz]

And as I have grown older I am no longer afraid of the marketing department so no holding back.

He said using the standard paradox marketing technique of finding your love for transparency right after the game launched and it would be helpful to the consumer.

I preferred Johan's version, where he just straight up told us that instead of making up some fake rage against the maschine nonsense.