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CO Word of the Week #12

Thank you for all the positive feedback on last week’s word! It’s great to hear you like the format so we’ll stick to it for the time being. While the tech team is hard at work implementing the code modding support, we can focus on the economy in Cities: Skylines II in today's WoW. At release, the economy did not meet the quality standard we strive for and I apologize for the frustration this has caused. In the post-release patches, we have included fixes for issues present in the economy implementation, but some still remain, and we’re working on resolving those thanks to your reports. The fixes will focus on the underlying system as well as how the information is presented in the game to achieve more clarity that helps you understand the economy better. We’ve received many questions about what parts of the game’s economy are working as designed and what we’re working to change, so let's dive in!

What is the impact of the specialized industries on the local economy?
Providing raw materials locally means companies using them do not have to import them as much from outside connections (or at all), which leads to those industries being more prosperous. Importing from outside connections is a more expensive choice than local availability, so local resources benefit companies’ bottom line. The design team will look into how to make it more clear which companies are importing or exporting, and how you can affect that.

Why are some services free to import while others have a fee?
One part of the Budget panel’s Expenses is the cost of service trade. Only part of the services are charged when traded, and these are electricity, water and sewage. Other services do not cost you anything to import. But why? The cost of these traded services comes in the form of time, as it will take a long time for them to arrive at their destination. This increases the negative effects on the city. For example, a citizen waiting for an ambulance for a long time increases their probability of dying when their health is low for a long time. Additionally, when a citizen is waiting for treatment, they can’t go to work, giving the company a penalty to its Efficiency.

How is “profitability” determined?
In the game, the company's profitability is calculated from the company's revenue and expenses, which include employee salary, resource buying, tax-paying, and daily production. The profitability indicates the possibility for a positive income, and it varies between 0 and 255. When there is no income for the company, and it still needs to pay a lot of expenses, the profitability can become 0. But it doesn't mean the company currently doesn't have any money, but rather predicts the value of revenue or loss of money. Issues like the lack of employees and the lack of input or output resources can cause profitability to fluctuate. When it comes to the profitability of the company, the calculations may change after we evaluate the complexity of the entire economy based on the feedback we’ve received.

What does the monthly balance show?
The game’s user interface includes tools for you to observe and control the overall economy of the city. The monthly balance in the City Economy panel’s Budget tab counts the current Revenues and Expenses together. It shows what is currently the estimated amount of money the city will gain or lose in the current month. Note that one day cycle in the game equals one month! The City Economy has been affected by bugs that caused the expected income (or loss) to not match the actual monthly income of the city, and we’re working to resolve the remaining issues with industrial tax reaching high values for no apparent reason.

What does “9% interest” on a loan mean? How is it calculated?
It will add a Loan Interest to the Budget panel, which is a monthly fee that will apply to your city’s money. It is calculated by the formula LoanRemainAmount * InterestRate every month, and as the remaining loan amount decreases each month, so will the amount your city pays.

We have also received questions about Land Value, so I want to share a quick update about the current state of both the Land Value and Demand systems, as both will have changes and fixes included in the next patch to the game. The Land Value system has been worked on for a while now, with the first improvements available in patch 1.0.19f1, and the demand system will be improved to make it easier to understand. Fixing major systems like the land value takes a bit more time than the usual bug fixes because these elements are connected to the other parts of the game’s economy system. Our goal with these changes is to make the systems more user-friendly to work with so, for example, it’s easier to understand what causes the high rents and how you can affect it. We’ll go over the land value and demand system improvements after all the changes are in, so stay tuned for that.

That’s it for this week. Have a lovely one until next time!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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I feel totally ashamed defending this game upon its released. CO doesn't really care about the simulation mechanism of the game. So many things are broken.
 
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Other services do not cost you anything to import. But why? The cost of these traded services comes in the form of time, as it will take a long time for them to arrive at their destination. This increases the negative effects on the city. For example, a citizen waiting for an ambulance for a long time increases their probability of dying when their health is low for a long time. Additionally, when a citizen is waiting for treatment, they can’t go to work, giving the company a penalty to its Efficiency.

So, I only need to build those other services in the city center? Given a large enough city, the area near the borders gets the traded services for free with minimal time cost? Depending on my road design, what's the size of that area, like 1 or 2 squares from the border?
 
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Hey, thanks for the update - more of these types of post please as it feels like the systems behind the game are quite complicated and it's great to get an explainer - I miss the days when you got a thick paper manual in the box with a new game!

I miss the days when a released game worked as described in the manual, and didn't need several months of bugfixes
 
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Why are some services free to import while others have a fee?
One part of the Budget panel’s Expenses is the cost of service trade. Only part of the services are charged when traded, and these are electricity, water and sewage. Other services do not cost you anything to import. But why? The cost of these traded services comes in the form of time, as it will take a long time for them to arrive at their destination. This increases the negative effects on the city. For example, a citizen waiting for an ambulance for a long time increases their probability of dying when their health is low for a long time. Additionally, when a citizen is waiting for treatment, they can’t go to work, giving the company a penalty to its Efficiency.

I think there is a strong case for moving garbage services from "free to import but slow" to "charged when traded". Most municipal waste management services aren't going to come gather garbage from another city unless they're being paid to do so. Either that or charge cims and businesses a separate "service tax" or something similar if they're paying for outside services like garbage collection.
 
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I sure hope you guys keep your word on the console release, it’s been almost a year and not a word other than “maybe” spring. It’s not fair that you guys released an unfinished product and speak out against the majority of gamers and creators who instead of acting “toxic” simply pointed out that the game is trash. I can’t speak for everyone on this thread but one things for sure paradox and CO need to actually stick to their word and hold their end of the deal, I am CERTAIN half the people who said they no longer will touch the game will change their minds if you guys can actually take the time to listen to the gamers that have kept you people in business, I still have faith it can still be a good game but y’all need to get it together, sincerely someone who wants to play the console version
 
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Funny, I don't seem to remember many people asking about the 'economy' of the game last week. In fact, a quick search shows only 6 posts that mention the economy. It seems like you are actively ignoring the majority of honest critiques and legitimate questions and instead focusing only on the positive feedback, like people being happy that you're attempting to communicate with us still. But this? This isn't cutting it.

I don't think any one of us were asking how interest on a loan works. That's basic stuff. We want answers to the real questions, like what are your plans for dlc and future development, why are you not going to be releasing more bug fixes without bundling it with paid dlc, why havent we gotten content we already paid for, can we get a refund because weve been waiting for 4 months for it, what are your thoughts on popular content creators making videos saying they're going to go back to cs1, how do hotels work, when are mods and assets coming, why did you sell us an unfinished early access game and refuse to acknowledge any of our complaints, etc, etc... Does anyone there actually read the forum posts? Or do you just get someone to filter out all the negative stuff and only show you meaningles praise?

Again, thanks for this entirely useless information about how an economy works. It doesn't show or work in game, but it's definitely information about stuff...

I urge everyone to speak with their wallets and not give any more money to this game until some of the issues have been actually addressed. They are pushing essential, basic features to the back so they can get the console version released as soon as possible so they can make money by selling the game to more people, even though it's still a broken, unfinished mess.

There has been a large undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the economy and simulation for a long time.

I get your quip about the 'no one asked how interest on a loan works' - but when you boil down the problems with the game feeling lifeless and unchallenging - it is the fundamental assumptions the Devs made about the economy that is at fault. It's completely hands-free, consequence-free and auto-run. The 'safety rails' and outside connections have everything mechanic is not fun.

I think they need to address the economy in a big way - because that is the sim. They made a city-painter that autoruns everything in the background for people who want to paint cities. Even Painters are realizing there's something amiss: because you hear it from them. "I don't know how it works or why, just that it does." It shows up in Painter videos frequently now. That statement is not something a sim-player wants as the explanation for why they should buy a title. Even the painters are getting bored and frustrated. It's not fun.

The 'not releasing bug fixes until/unless bundled with paid DLC' statement is likely out the window after the PDX intervention (and community backlash). It could mean that they plan to speed up the release of DLC at a pace that coincides with bug fixes, but that 'could' is likely pollyannaish. But the truth is they need to dump a bunch of extra content for the Painters to keep them around. They need to change the assumptions about the gameplay (and player's ability to interact with / control the economy or aspects of the economy) to allow players to feel as if they are making meaningful choices.

They shouldn't just bug-fix; they should completely re-analyze the assumptions they made about how the economy / sim works and how players want to and can interact with it. To make the product a GAME.

Otherwise its just a quirky tech-demo / city painter with no game aspects or challenges to make it interesting.
 
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You don't even
There has been a large undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the economy and simulation for a long time.

I get your quip about the 'no one asked how interest on a loan works' - but when you boil down the problems with the game feeling lifeless and unchallenging - it is the fundamental assumptions the Devs made about the economy that is at fault. It's completely hands-free, consequence-free and auto-run. The 'safety rails' and outside connections have everything mechanic is not fun.

I think they need to address the economy in a big way - because that is the sim. They made a city-painter that autoruns everything in the background for people who want to paint cities. Even Painters are realizing there's something amiss: because you hear it from them. "I don't know how it works or why, just that it does." It shows up in Painter videos frequently now. That statement is not something a sim-player wants as the explanation for why they should buy a title. Even the painters are getting bored and frustrated. It's not fun.

The 'not releasing bug fixes until/unless bundled with paid DLC' statement is likely out the window after the PDX intervention (and community backlash). It could mean that they plan to speed up the release of DLC at a pace that coincides with bug fixes, but that 'could' is likely pollyannaish. But the truth is they need to dump a bunch of extra content for the Painters to keep them around. They need to change the assumptions about the gameplay (and player's ability to interact with / control the economy or aspects of the economy) to allow players to feel as if they are making meaningful choices.

They shouldn't just bug-fix; they should completely re-analyze the assumptions they made about how the economy / sim works and how players want to and can interact with it. To make the product a GAME.

Otherwise its just a quirky tech-demo / city painter with no game aspects or challenges to make it interesting.
Do you expect them to change the game systems - I mean this would be a complete re-design, no? Just to underline the crazyness that's going on in the simulation: If you don't connect your city to a powerline what it does is give a 50% debuff on productivity. Your whole city can be permanently disconnected from the power grid and the factories are still producing!! Who made decisions like this and why?
 
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You don't even

Do you expect them to change the game systems - I mean this would be a complete re-design, no? Just to underline the crazyness that's going on in the simulation: If you don't connect your city to a powerline what it does is give a 50% debuff on productivity. Your whole city can be permanently disconnected from the power grid and the factories are still producing!! Who made decisions like this and why?

I almost think they have to.

The underlying presumptions? The more I read about the 'sim' the more I wonder
Who made decisions like this and why?
 
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I miss the days when a released game worked as described in the manual, and didn't need several months of bugfixes
Well, we have to be fair though.

Meanwhile, having the internet, we are not doomed to be left alone with our games, wondering who might have developed them and with which intentions and plans.
Today, having the internet, we are in constant contact to our most beloved developers, can engage in deep conversations with them, ask questions and receive answers almost immediately.

Oh... wait....
 
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I’m really getting more concerned about the console side of things. We are extremely close to spring and not one single thing appears to be talking about console other than “the team is working hard on it”

You should be first focusing on performance and 2# console. The rest is 3rd ig
 
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You don't even

Do you expect them to change the game systems - I mean this would be a complete re-design, no? Just to underline the crazyness that's going on in the simulation: If you don't connect your city to a powerline what it does is give a 50% debuff on productivity. Your whole city can be permanently disconnected from the power grid and the factories are still producing!! Who made decisions like this and why?

I think they need to release a hard mode with no failsafes.

Hopefully they will work on it after the biggest priorities are sorted out.

Without a hard mode or any challenge CO would potentially lose half of its playerbase and only be left with city painters that would play modded cs 1 anyway.
 
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I care not for the games economics as it's out of my control and doesn't make any sense. Just like in real life.
If you take away the economy then you don't have a city simulator, just a painter. We not only need the economy to be functional, we need to know how it is functioning. Bland high level explanations like we're starting to get from CO are not particularly helpful.
 
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to all dreamers:
CS2 is a city painter for the human player and it won't be any different.

CO is unable and unwilling to fundamentally change the game design. All official announcements to date do not allow any other conclusion.

for example:
Who cares if the loan costs 9% or 19% interest? It only changes some displayed numbers without affecting the simulation.
 
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The fixes will focus on [...] how the information is presented in the game to achieve more clarity that helps you understand the economy better.
Suggestion for this:
Flowcharts. Have a link in the buildings info window that pops open a visual flowchart that shows what input is used, were the input is coming from and how much it costs. Shows how many are working there, how much the wages costs. Shows the rent of the building. Shows the output, were it goes and how much it is worth.
At the same time, or from another button show on the main view how the input flows to the building, how the output flows from the building (preferably: if going via a warehouse have the step beyond the warehouse shown as well as less saturated lines), and how the workers get to work.
Show us. Show us all of it. Show the flows of goods and services and people, so that we may act on the actual data.
 
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I’m really getting more concerned about the console side of things. We are extremely close to spring and not one single thing appears to be talking about console other than “the team is working hard on it”

You should be first focusing on performance and 2# console. The rest is 3rd ig

You better wait than receive an unfinished buggy console game. At this point, console release should even be less of their priority with all the fixes they need to do on game mechanism, performance, and other bugs.
 
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