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CO Word of the Week #12

Thank you for all the positive feedback on last week’s word! It’s great to hear you like the format so we’ll stick to it for the time being. While the tech team is hard at work implementing the code modding support, we can focus on the economy in Cities: Skylines II in today's WoW. At release, the economy did not meet the quality standard we strive for and I apologize for the frustration this has caused. In the post-release patches, we have included fixes for issues present in the economy implementation, but some still remain, and we’re working on resolving those thanks to your reports. The fixes will focus on the underlying system as well as how the information is presented in the game to achieve more clarity that helps you understand the economy better. We’ve received many questions about what parts of the game’s economy are working as designed and what we’re working to change, so let's dive in!

What is the impact of the specialized industries on the local economy?
Providing raw materials locally means companies using them do not have to import them as much from outside connections (or at all), which leads to those industries being more prosperous. Importing from outside connections is a more expensive choice than local availability, so local resources benefit companies’ bottom line. The design team will look into how to make it more clear which companies are importing or exporting, and how you can affect that.

Why are some services free to import while others have a fee?
One part of the Budget panel’s Expenses is the cost of service trade. Only part of the services are charged when traded, and these are electricity, water and sewage. Other services do not cost you anything to import. But why? The cost of these traded services comes in the form of time, as it will take a long time for them to arrive at their destination. This increases the negative effects on the city. For example, a citizen waiting for an ambulance for a long time increases their probability of dying when their health is low for a long time. Additionally, when a citizen is waiting for treatment, they can’t go to work, giving the company a penalty to its Efficiency.

How is “profitability” determined?
In the game, the company's profitability is calculated from the company's revenue and expenses, which include employee salary, resource buying, tax-paying, and daily production. The profitability indicates the possibility for a positive income, and it varies between 0 and 255. When there is no income for the company, and it still needs to pay a lot of expenses, the profitability can become 0. But it doesn't mean the company currently doesn't have any money, but rather predicts the value of revenue or loss of money. Issues like the lack of employees and the lack of input or output resources can cause profitability to fluctuate. When it comes to the profitability of the company, the calculations may change after we evaluate the complexity of the entire economy based on the feedback we’ve received.

What does the monthly balance show?
The game’s user interface includes tools for you to observe and control the overall economy of the city. The monthly balance in the City Economy panel’s Budget tab counts the current Revenues and Expenses together. It shows what is currently the estimated amount of money the city will gain or lose in the current month. Note that one day cycle in the game equals one month! The City Economy has been affected by bugs that caused the expected income (or loss) to not match the actual monthly income of the city, and we’re working to resolve the remaining issues with industrial tax reaching high values for no apparent reason.

What does “9% interest” on a loan mean? How is it calculated?
It will add a Loan Interest to the Budget panel, which is a monthly fee that will apply to your city’s money. It is calculated by the formula LoanRemainAmount * InterestRate every month, and as the remaining loan amount decreases each month, so will the amount your city pays.

We have also received questions about Land Value, so I want to share a quick update about the current state of both the Land Value and Demand systems, as both will have changes and fixes included in the next patch to the game. The Land Value system has been worked on for a while now, with the first improvements available in patch 1.0.19f1, and the demand system will be improved to make it easier to understand. Fixing major systems like the land value takes a bit more time than the usual bug fixes because these elements are connected to the other parts of the game’s economy system. Our goal with these changes is to make the systems more user-friendly to work with so, for example, it’s easier to understand what causes the high rents and how you can affect it. We’ll go over the land value and demand system improvements after all the changes are in, so stay tuned for that.

That’s it for this week. Have a lovely one until next time!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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I think they need to release a hard mode with no failsafes.

Hopefully they will work on it after the biggest priorities are sorted out.

Without a hard mode or any challenge CO would potentially lose half of its playerbase and only be left with city painters that would play modded cs 1 anyway.
The playerbase is already decimated.

The big problem I see ist this:

to all dreamers:
CS2 is a city painter for the human player and it won't be any different.

CO is unable and unwilling to fundamentally change the game design. All official announcements to date do not allow any other conclusion.

for example:
Who cares if the loan costs 9% or 19% interest? It only changes some displayed numbers without affecting the simulation.
CO is struggling just to get the game running properly, so changing the way the simulation works seems out of question. The information value of these explanations vague descriptions of the simulation is next to nothing.

@co_martsu states "We’ve received many questions about what parts of the game’s economy are working as designed and what we’re working to change, so let's dive in!"

Now after reading this weeks post can anyone tell what parts of the game’s economy are working as designed? Does anyone have a clue what changes they wanna implement? Mariina left it unclear.

The most concrete information she gives is "Land Value and Demand systems will see "changes and fixes" which for the Land Value means that it "will be improved to make it easier to understand". Ok, sure, whatever that means. If you can't or don't want to give us information that's fine by me. But why this charade with the WoWs?
 
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Good update and great to see the logic behind some decision. However, I have to say I don't agree for example the company profitability part but my way would probably be a bit too complicated for a game like this anyway.

To those who say "player base is already decimated" and other nonsense: You'll see the difference in the future. People who have stopped playing the game haven't left forever. It is totally understandable that the game isn't that interesting as it stands with all the bugs and limited asset content. When those get fixed and modding comes available, things will start to change. No matter how much you want this game to fail it won't. Rough start, yes. Bad PR management, yes. But getting better over time.
 
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To those who say "player base is already decimated" and other nonsense: You'll see the difference in the future. People who have stopped playing the game haven't left forever. It is totally understandable that the game isn't that interesting as it stands with all the bugs and limited asset content. When those get fixed and modding comes available, things will start to change. No matter how much you want this game to fail it won't. Rough start, yes. Bad PR management, yes. But getting better over time.
Who says they want the game to fail though? I think the vast majority of people here want it to succeed, but are greatly disappointed by the state it was released in as well as the pace of fixes. And the current trajectory does not look good.
 
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Thank you, I’m really enjoying the new WotW contents!

For the next WotW, I’m hoping for some insights into the AI and traffic simulation. The issue highlighted in this video is quote concerning:

Public transit has 0 influence by imperatur

Most useful part of that video is the poem at the end.
 
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So Paradox told you to continue the WotW series which you comply by posting these absolutely generic posts and then just ignore the whole thread and forum right until the next Monday to post the next generic thing? Wow, perfect communication. Noooo, please do not consider commenting on the follow up questions of the community...
By the way it kinda shows how utterly meaningless these posts became. Only 5 pages of comments in 2 days while it used to create 5 pages in 5 hours...
 
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The City Economy has been affected by bugs that caused the expected income (or loss) to not match the actual monthly income of the city, and we’re working to resolve the remaining issues with industrial tax reaching high values for no apparent reason.
Thanks for this Word of the Week and especially the effort that is put into clarifying this part of the game to us. However, I fear it's a bit to early for me to understand the explanation when comparing it to what I see in-game. As soon as you add a certain specialized industry, taxation of the related materials increases with 300%. This might be the taxation bug, but I clearly see an "apparent reason". So my brains nevertheless try to understand it. What I do understand is that importing goods reduces profitability and therewith tax incomes. This is what real life does (simplified):

Case A:
Importing goods: 1000
Other costs: 2000
Total costs: 3000
Revenue: 20.000
Profit: 17.000
Tax: 10%
Taxation: 1700

Case B:
Goods from own city: 200
Other costs: 2000
Total costs: 2200
Revenue: 20.000
Profit: 17.800
Tax: 10%
Taxation: 1780

That's a taxation increase of 4%

But, like I mentioned, in-game we see a taxation increase of 300%. It might be that I'm bad at math, but I can only imagine it means that the costs for importing goods are extremely high (supposing that it's not a simple programming error in the taxation calculation).

Altogether I will re-read this WoW in about 2 months and see if it starts making sense to me.
 
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So Paradox told you to continue the WotW series which you comply by posting these absolutely generic posts and then just ignore the whole thread and forum right until the next Monday to post the next generic thing? Wow, perfect communication. Noooo, please do not consider commenting on the follow up questions of the community...
By the way it kinda shows how utterly meaningless these posts became. Only 5 pages of comments in 2 days while it used to create 5 pages in 5 hours...
seriously, what a joke!
 
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It seems like you are actively ignoring the majority of honest critiques and legitimate questions and instead focusing only on the positive feedback, like people being happy that you're attempting to communicate with us still. But this? This isn't cutting it.
I meant, last week's basically said that these are being written under duress, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if they did the minimum possible that doesn't get Paradox mad.
 
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I’m really getting more concerned about the console side of things. We are extremely close to spring and not one single thing appears to be talking about console other than “the team is working hard on it”

You should be first focusing on performance and 2# console. The rest is 3rd ig

Trust me, console players…you don’t want this game if all they fix is performance. You will be missing all the mods that make some aspects of the game even tolerable, and you will be missing all of the aspects that will actually make the game fun. This game is so unfun that I can’t even get into it for 40 hours and I have over 4,000 in the original. Be careful what you wish for. They should have delayed this game at least another year for everyone from the looks.
 
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Who says they want the game to fail though? I think the vast majority of people here want it to succeed, but are greatly disappointed by the state it was released in as well as the pace of fixes. And the current trajectory does not look good.
I definitely want them to succeed, but I think they lost the entire purpose of their game in all the technical problems they had. They didn’t have a solid idea of what the game should be and they didn’t have a solid architecture to build it on from a game engine standpoint. If it were me…I think years ago I would have chosen to build my own game engine instead of trying so hard to make Unity work. I am shocked looking back at what I’ve learned since launch that they spent 5 years fighting technical problems and didn’t actually even make a serviceable game out of it. I would have done something more incremental or even just revamped CS1 to run on multiple cores a bit better.

While I understand most of the player base isn’t that technical, I wish they’d put their system architect front and center to explain the problems they had so we could understand what the hangups were in making progress. It would at least help us understand better what the tradeoffs were and maybe garner some sympathy…but right now we just keep getting vague promises for things that won’t matter.

I agree with those claiming this will be a city painter and not a real simulator in the end. I think that’s likely at this point, and I for one did not sign up for a city simulator. Much as I appreciate the improvements in how roads work and the mixed zoning, I don’t find this game meaningful to play if all I can do is make a city that looks a certain way. I love dealing with the economic and transportation challenges…and this game doesn’t look like it will deliver those without a serious rethinking of the game.

All of this could have been handled if they had properly engaged the community years ago…and I suspect the even bigger issue they failed to solve was engaging the proper technical talent to put together a more workable technical architecture. I think that is not only why development took 150% longer than anticipated, but also why we don’t have a map or asset editor yet either. And the poor handling of PR makes me think that there’s a fundamental leadership problem at CO as well.

All of this adds up into a quagmire that gives me serious doubts about CO’s ability to deliver on their promise of a next-generation city builder. I think perhaps the vision is there, but the know -how to carry it out seems to be missing. I’d rather lack know-how than vision, but nobody has really articulated the vision all that well in specifics…so I question whether that vision was clear enough too. There are so many unanswered questions.

But one thing I believe is certain—nobody wants CO or CS2 to fail. We really want them to be honest, to listen, and to humble…transparency only matters if you do those three things. It’s not actual transparency without at least honesty and humility, and it’s useless if you don’t listen…and you need humility to listen. So far it’s all pride.
 
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I'd love an at a glance view of homed - especially homelessness. There's probably other things that go in the pie chart, but, right now I have to carefully look over my parks to find out whether I've created homelessness or not.
 
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I’m really getting more concerned about the console side of things. We are extremely close to spring and not one single thing appears to be talking about console other than “the team is working hard on it”

You should be first focusing on performance and 2# console. The rest is 3rd ig

My friend - they’ve been very clear, unfortunately.

The console release is gated by the Asset Editor because that’s a core gameplay mechanic and they can’t go to SONY and XBOX and release an unfinished game. But also, performance.

They don’t have to say it, the console versions are delayed until at least the end of the year. If it was coming out anytime soon, they’d be collecting your cash already. They aren’t. So…that should tell you everything you need to know.
 
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I definitely want them to succeed, but I think they lost the entire purpose of their game in all the technical problems they had. They didn’t have a solid idea of what the game should be and they didn’t have a solid architecture to build it on from a game engine standpoint. If it were me…I think years ago I would have chosen to build my own game engine instead of trying so hard to make Unity work. I am shocked looking back at what I’ve learned since launch that they spent 5 years fighting technical problems and didn’t actually even make a serviceable game out of it. I would have done something more incremental or even just revamped CS1 to run on multiple cores a bit better.

While I understand most of the player base isn’t that technical, I wish they’d put their system architect front and center to explain the problems they had so we could understand what the hangups were in making progress. It would at least help us understand better what the tradeoffs were and maybe garner some sympathy…but right now we just keep getting vague promises for things that won’t matter.

I agree with those claiming this will be a city painter and not a real simulator in the end. I think that’s likely at this point, and I for one did not sign up for a city simulator. Much as I appreciate the improvements in how roads work and the mixed zoning, I don’t find this game meaningful to play if all I can do is make a city that looks a certain way. I love dealing with the economic and transportation challenges…and this game doesn’t look like it will deliver those without a serious rethinking of the game.

All of this could have been handled if they had properly engaged the community years ago…and I suspect the even bigger issue they failed to solve was engaging the proper technical talent to put together a more workable technical architecture. I think that is not only why development took 150% longer than anticipated, but also why we don’t have a map or asset editor yet either. And the poor handling of PR makes me think that there’s a fundamental leadership problem at CO as well.

All of this adds up into a quagmire that gives me serious doubts about CO’s ability to deliver on their promise of a next-generation city builder. I think perhaps the vision is there, but the know -how to carry it out seems to be missing. I’d rather lack know-how than vision, but nobody has really articulated the vision all that well in specifics…so I question whether that vision was clear enough too. There are so many unanswered questions.

But one thing I believe is certain—nobody wants CO or CS2 to fail. We really want them to be honest, to listen, and to humble…transparency only matters if you do those three things. It’s not actual transparency without at least honesty and humility, and it’s useless if you don’t listen…and you need humility to listen. So far it’s all pride.
Probably you got a lot right, but in the end most of us want a bug free game and don't care about the technical issues they face.
I was positively surprised by last week's patch. In contrary to the WoWs, it purely focussed on quality by fixing problems. If they would release such a patch every week for the next two months, no one will complain about the quality anymore.

Next they focus on asset editor, modding and console and there will be a better game than CS1. Sure, not the game they aimed for and not delivered in a customer friendly way, but certainly a game that most of us love playing for a lot of hours.
 
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All of this adds up into a quagmire that gives me serious doubts about CO’s ability to deliver on their promise of a next-generation city builder. I think perhaps the vision is there, but the know -how to carry it out seems to be missing. I’d rather lack know-how than vision, but nobody has really articulated the vision all that well in specifics…so I question whether that vision was clear enough too. There are so many unanswered questions.

At his point I think that we have no choice but to accept that CS2 will be just a city painter with better graphics than CS1 and new road tools. If we look at it from this point of view it has a lot of potential.

With time passing a lot of issues that bothers players can be solved:

1. The bugs can be fixed, slowly but steadily, this can improve playability of game greatly.
2. With upcoming DLC's, free updates and (hopefully) asset mods the lack of content and variety in the game will be no problem in a few years.
3. As time goes by, the average gamers PC will improve. The upcoming generation of CPU's promise major performance boost. The performance will be less and less of an concern.
4. Lack of UI and QoL features will sorted through game updates or through mods. Game will be more player and especially city-painter friendly.

This can turn CS2 into awesome city painter in a couple of years.

On the other hand there are issues that probably cannot be realistically sorted at this point:

A. Simulation - it is what it is. Changing fundamental principles of simulation would probably require building the model from the scratch. Is is basically area that can be addressed by another sequel. While it sounded rude for Marina to say "if you do not like simulation, then maybe game is not for you", it is, unfortunately, most likely true. We will probably see fixes to simulation related bugs and some band-aids for game running behavior but that's it.

B. Lack of depth and features in basically most areas of city building and management. Let's be honest most of the game mechanics are supper shallow. Crime, health, fire, emergency services, public transport, maintenance, newly added telecom it is all very basic and simplistic. At this point I do not think it can improve much. At best we can hope for some CS1 style DLC's that will add some somehow related but in the ended awkwardly tacked on mechanics, mini-games, like Industries or Campus did.

At this point it is rather evident that CO "lucked it" with CS1 release, due to SC2013 failure. CS1 as a city builder was extremely shallow and barebones when compared to SC2013 or SC4. It simply achieved 3 things: it actually worked, had actually large maps and embraced the mods from the start. 8 years later, CS2 is also a shallow a game that in many aspects is inferior to 20 years old game (SC4). I was hoping for much more life in the city. Different types of crime, emergency and social events. Nothing like that was delivered. Even Firetrucks do not have animations for putting down fires...

If we disregard all the marketing nonsense that was fed to us and accept CS2 for what it is, then we could avoid further disappointments and frustrations.
 
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... it makes me wonder why it took so long for this to be addressed?

They've been addressing the issues since day one. Computer programing and coding takes time. It's not just a code dump and release. There is building, testing and implementing that has to take place. Sure, it took awhile to get the fixes rolled out, but the argument that they took too long to address the issues is not real.

It seems like most of the people voicing their frustrations may not understand some of the fundamentals of computer programming. It's not as simple as pressing a button or just flipping a switch to turn something on or make a change. Code has to be written, then tested, then rewritten, then tested, then rewritten, then tested, then implemented. It takes time.

PS: I'm not over here saying that the game is in a great spot, or that it was released as anything other than an early access title - which I do agree that they should have been more upfront and released the game as such. But to say that they took too long to address the issues is a very narrow way of looking at game development, and ignores all of the time/work it requires to implement fixes.
 
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If they would release such a patch every week for the next two months, no one will complain about the quality anymore.

Weekly??

I sure hope some of you are willing to volunteer and help them make this happen. I can't imagine the amount of time/work it must take to develop and implement patches. I write code for individual sites and that takes plenty of time... I have to assume that developing code for a game takes much longer.
 
Sure. Why not?

Obviously they wouldn't have tons of fixes in them, but if you don't have enough CI to be able to be confident in releasing your main branch, that's the core problem.

The core thing of scrum, for example, is to have the train run on time always, and whenever a feature or bugfix is finished it rides the train, whether it was a trivial fix (like reducing water usage of a building) or a huge new thing that's been in the works for months.

If shipping weekly is hard, get better at shipping. (Once you're on consoles shipping is legitimately harder, so maybe there'd be more of a reason for semi-weekly or monthly, but the best way to do software is to ship on a regular schedule from an always-stable main branch.)
 
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Weekly??

I sure hope some of you are willing to volunteer and help them make this happen. I can't imagine the amount of time/work it must take to develop and implement patches. I write code for individual sites and that takes plenty of time... I have to assume that developing code for a game takes much longer.
I work for a software company creating software for about 800 companies. We deliver patches (and even a new version) on a daily basis to all companies. It's not like it's rocket science. You need three things for it: the right engine, the right mindset and being properly organized. CO makes it really difficult for themselves by making big patches instead of small patches, fixing one thing per patch. If the patch causes issues, it's easy to identify what caused the problem and to undo/improve the change.
 
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