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CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians.

So you have purposefully decided to reduce / eliminate from the game one of the major challenges of CS1 and make it a non-issue in CS2.

Loads of us enjoyed the challenge of having to build efficient road networks in CS1 yes sometimes the AI was annoying but we didn't want you to remove the challenge of traffic.

This probably also explains why so many cities seem so empty with hardly any vehicles or pedestrians about. We want our cities to feel alive. This for me is one of the best things about CS1. Building a city and then seeing your citizens everywhere using it. On the roads, on the paths, in the parks, etc.
 
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For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.


Sincerely,
Mariina

Something is seriously wrong here. In Finland, the number of primary school students (grades 1-9) is less than 10% of the population. In Cities: Skylines 2, it's over 25%.
 
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It's rather dismissive to say only haters will submit a review of the game in its current state. I review things as I experience them. If I have paid for a product or service, and I feel that product or service warrants a negative review based upon how I received it, then I will post a negative review. Waiting to see how it all pans out before writing a review completely ignores why reviews exist in the first place: to help others make a purchasing decision. If I withhold my thoughts on the game in its current state, I may as well not bother writing a review for any game ever until a developer announces they are no longer working on any development for it whatsoever.
 
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Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

What are the percentage weightings on this mechanic. my gut instinct is i dont like that its taking away the realism, but i guess without seeing the game without it its hard to say. Could you tell us what percentage of cims are going passive at different population levels, Eg at 10k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1 mil.

And thanks for the WOTW :)
 
You're right in a way, the problem here isn't that things are faked, it's that they're faked so obviously. If they can't make the game run well by simulating every single agent, and the time dilation is holding things back, then I see two options. One is to just fake it better. Wouldnt be too hard to run calculations for certain areas and add dummy traffic, or fill a park with fake citizens if it's supposed to be busy but no one can get there. The other option is to simulate a time closer to reality, just go all in on the realism. Neither one is easy, and what we got instead was a quick easy fix to a fundamentally broken game.

Best and simple option would be to just use longer days to give agents time to spread out and complete their routines.

Something like 1 in-game day=6 real time hours at normal speed
 
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There is some ways how you can positive response to community.. As one kind of redemption you can make CS1 & it's all DLCs free for CS2 buyers. In this way we can play both games until you definitely solve the CS2
 
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What are the percentage weightings on this mechanic. my gut instinct is i dont like that its taking away the realism, but i guess without seeing the game without it its hard to say. Could you tell us what percentage of cims are going passive at different population levels, Eg at 10k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1 mil.

And thanks for the WOTW :)

A modder already exposed that.

It is 40% of the total population being active (going to work, shopping, etc) by default.

Then it is reduced until it becomes 0,16% at 1 million pop.

There is also a mod that remove the limit and makes it like default (40%) all the times
 
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These two are actually not competing with each other, because high school students in the game are teens and college students are adults. I suppose if you have a city full of barely educated adults and suddenly build a college, a lot of them might want to update their degree in the beginning. The game does make them evaluate whether it is beneficial to study instead of just working. But I guess the lack of high school students is more related to the low number of teens to begin with.
Elementary school: 4-12 years.
High school: 12-18 years (out of which the last two years optionally in some countries). Quite logical there are less children going to high school compared to elementary school.

I'm not so sure they got the percentage right, since there are about 500 high school students for each 3000 elementary school students.
(I wonder if it has something to do with the age of 0-4 years, since I don't see them in the statistics)

I'm neither convinced they got the amount of jobs for educated people balanced with the amount of high school students. About every work place is in need of educated people without you having the possibility to do something about it.

P.s. although I do appreciate the attempt to clarify these mechanics to us by means of the WotW, I would recommend to stop doing so. The explanations are too low level for experienced players and therewith not helpful, just causing cynical reactions (that tend to be interpreted as toxic). I would really suggest to document things properly or otherwise refrain from trying to explain them)
 
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Hi, I think that waiting for a patch until end of march doesn't make sense. The current state of the game is basically that of an early access game. By releasing patches regularly at least they could get immidiate feedback.

With regular patches they would also get immidiate feedback from people with different hardware.
This is a "vanilla" game. What were people expecting? There are some choices they made that I scratch my head about -- if they could give us these exquisite road engineering tools, why couldn't they give us a simple prop line tool (or props, for that matter)...

But that isn't something that "breaks" the game. People are whining about the lack of variety ... but good grief, do they remember vanilla CS1? Look at what some creators out there ARE producing already with this game. Is the game perfect? No. Has it realized the same level of success as its predecessor? No. But the juvenile "yucking" by some taints the entire experience.
 
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Thanks for the update. I was wondering about car use and walking distance. By this I mean that Europeans usually have cities with large pedestrian areas in the center of town and local shops near their houses further from the center of town. This limits the use of cars and many people just walk or cycle to a shop nearby for their daily things, or go to the center of town by public transport.

It seems that using a car is preferred in Cities, or is that a matter of city planning and design? Like in real life, if cims prefer to walk a bit instead of using a car, traffic should be more manageable. I haven't seen this mechanic in the game yet.
Based on what do you have this impression? From what I experience, if you build your shopping area next to your residential area, there's definitely a high amount of pedestrians. When connecting both areas with public transportation, that is also used heavily
 
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This is a "vanilla" game. What were people expecting? There are some choices they made they I scratch my head about -- if they could give us these exquisite road engineering tools, why couldn't they give us a simple prop line tool (or props, for that matter)...

But that isn't something that "breaks" the game. People are whining about the lack of variety ... but good grief, do they remember vanilla CS1? Look at what some creators out there ARE producing already with this game. Is the game perfect? No. Has it realized the same level of success as its predecessor? No. But the juvenile "yucking" by some taints the entire experience.
Yes, you are right there is a group of players, who are angry about lack of contect. And in this view, I agree with you.

But there is also a group of players, who point out that the mechanics in the game are either broken or making game to easy, like deep-fake simulation, i.e. it does not matter what you do in the game, but on a first glance it seems there is simulation of live in the game. The reason why they are angry is, that CS2 was sold to them as greatest city simulator.

And then you also have a group of gamers, which cannot play the game at all, because their game is constantly crashing.

You are focusing on first group, can you try to focus on remaining two and also tell me they are wrong.
 
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Thank you for this response, i'm happy to hear the design team is looking into 'nothing matters' and 'lacking challenge' as this is a big issue in the game. I am also glad to hear that feedback from content creators is being taken into account.

However, these things should have been properly mentioned in the word of the week. I reckon a lot of people have been waiting to hear something along these lines.

We all want this game to succeed, the reason people are frustrated is because we care about the game. I care about this game (a lot), I want it to live up to it's potential, so I feel it's important to hear reassuring things like this in the word of the week.

I think it's important to adress community concerns and to interact with the community. Things not being adressed/being silent just leads to more frustration and loss of hope of this game ever being what we all hoped it would be.
I fear we've been a situation where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't when it comes to the communication with the community. We will not subject our personnel to any form of abuse and in the current climate it's very difficult for us to have interaction that is not overwhelmingly stressful. Therefore I asked for civility and we all saw how that went. We are doing our best and we'll just have to wait and get the results in the game to get passed this. It will take the time it takes as unfortunately there's no way to speed things up more than we already have.
Thank you for your responses. I do believe had this been communicated to us 2/3 weeks ago, all this anger could have avoided from the start. But I cautiously welcome any potential change in communication, and thank you for replying.

Would it be possible to have a roadmap on what CO is playing to do to help fix the many issues soon? I believe a roadmap was promised but as of now we have had no word on it.

My personal opinion is that I feel there is a lot of “we can’t share X that is concrete”. My worry is that at this moment, nothing much is being done to address the concerns of the community other than “we are looking into it”. For example, the same thing has been said of hard mode in the first WOTW iirc wrt “looking into it” and it’s still the same progress despite it being months (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). Would you be able to share anything that is concrete about the games development at this moment?
Unfortunately a roadmap is not something we'll be sharing at this time. We'll only share concrete news with solid dates which means the work is already done or closed to being done. We'll be following the publisher's lead on all news and dig into the details when we can.
And also CS1 had modding support on day 1. I can understand a gaming studio perhaps not being too fond of modding, since you have made a product and other people are affecting your product without your control. But one of the things that made CS1 big and appealing to masses was custom created content. Modding community is an essential part of this franchise. Cities: Skylines is meaningful with it's modding community. Many many asset creators and modders (including me) were waiting for the game to bring their work into CS2, which would also immensely help with insufficient content issue. You need to offer some public beta modding support even if it's barebones, it has the potential of helping the situation a lot.
Not having the modding support done and available at launch is the biggest regret we have. Having the barebones support available at the earliest possible moment is our top priority and we'll of course continue working on it throughout the lifetime of the game. We've done our best to support modding in all of our games and Cities: Skylines II is no exception. It is just taking longer to offer the support than any of us wanted. But it is what it is and we're working through the issues.
They have... they have only 30 people?? What kind of a business management is this?? You would expect a company that has made a name for itself to have some proper numbers... where did all the revenue from CS1 go..?

Well I guess they doubled their numbers since CS1 launch :D (insert kek_laugh meme). But they are big financially at least. Being big doesn't only happen with number of people
Well at least the publisher grew in numbers :D But seriously speaking I'd be happy to discuss the business side of Colossal Order and the ideas behind managing it. I wonder what would be the best format, ask me anything about business post?
No Wotw on Steam?
Thanks for pointing this out, I have let the publisher PR team know and they fixed it now! I personally only do this post and not the Steam one.
 
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I feel like a wallet at this point. As such I have uninstalled the game and have no intentions on touching CS2 again until the patches start up, the game is reasonably playable, and we get something that does not feel like an early access release.
 
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9 women can't make a baby in one month is probably a good way to describe the situation we've faced. Unfortunately throwing money at a problem doesn't always solve issues. With that said we are indeed looking to strengthen the team and we wish to find suitable people to work with us so we can speed up the development in the long run.

Consoles are something we've committed to at announcement, but as those are not available to purchase there's no revenue from them. All the optimizations required for it will benefit the PC. We believe we can find places to still optimize the game further without dumbing down the simulation. Though it also requires work for different reasons.
I appreciate your reply. What I meant is:

1) I am in general agreement that slowing down the patch cycle probably isn't in the best interest of the game or the community. It indicates to me that you feel the lion's share of optimization fixes are in place ... while some members of your audience community remain unhappy with the game in its current state.

2) Of course revenue from consoles is nonexistent right now. I worded that poorly. I'm assuming that console players represent a substantial part of the fan-base for this game. I know I've seen cities that people built in console that made my jaw drop. You can't afford to create a game optimized for the most advanced systems that would be essentially unplayable on consoles. It wouldn't be good business and it certainly wouldn't be fair to the people who love this game who play it on console.

3) But I'm assuming, not being an expert, that the technology demands for a souped up version of this game that does everything some of us with newer systems might like it to do would probably be unplayable on older PCs and on console. From my perspective, you have to thread a needle with rope to create a single version of the game that satisfies your entire audience. Perhaps a Cities Skylines 2: console alongside a Cities Skylines 2: PC would enable you to better satisfy audience expectations. But that (I also assume) presents different kinds of management dilemmas.

But I'm speaking as someone who is presently enjoying playing the version of the game that you released, with the expectation that it will grow and mature over time.
 
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Therefore I asked for civility and we all saw how that went.

Respectfully, you asked for civility by telling us (and Engadget) that the community was toxic and that we were the problem, are you really shocked that made people more upset given the state of the game and the absence of refunds and lack of communication on substantive fixes to the game? This is the recipe for frustration and toxicity and the current approach isn't making things better, the community and the influencers are all upset and putting the game down, potentially for good.
 
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