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CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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Do I like the situation we're in? No. Do I think CO can do anything about it now? Also no.

Releasing the game unfinished and everything was a super bad decision (who would have thought!) but it's done. Only way to gain back trust is fix it and that clearly won't happen over night.
I mostly agree, but I mean there is something they can do about it, CO/PDX can offer refunds like Creative Assembly did a few months ago. They just absolutely refuse to even engage with the question of refunds, unfortunately.

But just because they refuse those measures doesn't mean the measures don't exist, and that refusal (along with all of the other issues) is something that should be considered in evaluating their actions and communication going forward.
 
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my game stutters when i have around 100k population. is there anyway to fix it ( i might of posted this twice srry)

Buy a new computer :p But remember:

there is no limit to the number of moving agents.

Meaning, this game will max out any system, just at different population sizes.
1 million will make the simulation crawl to a halt on the most overclocked ThreadRipper CPU available today:
 
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There's nothing they can say that would do any good. (A sincere apology, maybe, but would you believe Mariina?) Continuing the WoWs is the weirdest move. They had it right the first time: If you don't have anything substantial to say it's better not to say anything at all. I mean just look at the reactions.

Do I like the situation we're in? No. Do I think CO can do anything about it now? Also no.

Releasing the game unfinished and everything was a super bad decision (who would have thought!) but it's done. Only way to gain back trust is fix it and that clearly won't happen over night.
I agree that apologies mean nothing at this point. And they apologized for some things here and there before. What is done is done and no apology makes the game better.

We also know refunds are out of the question, but this is certainly a publisher thing.

The way they could got some positive vibes would be (but actively refuse to do) is
- aknowledge and adress the comments of Biffa and other content creators and there plan of actions to adress general sentiment and feedback
- revise their strategy of 'only patch with paid DLC/mods' and announce a window when the fixes will be available because of overwhemlingly negative feedback
- adress the elephant in the room; the actual simulation. Are they planning to make the game an actual game with deeper gameplay depth and adress all the concerns repeated 1000 times before. Or is this it? Is this the gameplay loop of CS2 and no revision is planned apart from some balancing of numbers and a litle UI button there.

I think personally a lot of hopefull people are in for a rude awakening on the last point. I believe this is the gameplay loop. They dropped hints last year like 'all gameplay goals have been reached', 'the game is fun, the simulation is good'etc.
 
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I agree that apologies mean nothing at this point. And they apologized for some things here and there before. What is done is done and no apology makes the game better.

We also know refunds are out of the question, but this is certainly a publisher thing.

The way they could got some positive vibes would be (but actively refuse to do) is
- aknowledge and adress the comments of Biffa and other content creators and there plan of actions to adress general sentiment and feedback
- revise their strategy of 'only patch with paid DLC/mods' and announce a window when the fixes will be available because of overwhemlingly negative feedback
- adress the elephant in the room; the actual simulation. Are they planning to make the game an actual game with deeper gameplay depth and adress all the concerns repeated 1000 times before. Or is this it? Is this the gameplay loop of CS2 and no revision is planned apart from some balancing of numbers and a litle UI button there.

I think personally a lot of hopefull people are in for a rude awakening on the last point. I believe this is the gameplay loop. They dropped hints last year like 'all gameplay goals have been reached', 'the game is fun, the simulation is good'etc.
An apology is necessary and important, because it is implicitly a promise not to do the same thing again.
 
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I think personally a lot of hopefull people are in for a rude awakening on the last point. I believe this is the gameplay loop. They dropped hints last year like 'all gameplay goals have been reached', 'the game is fun, the simulation is good'etc.

I think you're correct with this, although mods when the integration is finished, could maybe improve upon certain things.
Personally, I just want the bugs and performance fixed, I can't even properly experience the gameplay :D without crashes and bugs ruining the city painting.
 
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I agree that apologies mean nothing at this point. And they apologized for some things here and there before. What is done is done and no apology makes the game better.

We also know refunds are out of the question, but this is certainly a publisher thing.

The way they could got some positive vibes would be (but actively refuse to do) is
- aknowledge and adress the comments of Biffa and other content creators and there plan of actions to adress general sentiment and feedback
- revise their strategy of 'only patch with paid DLC/mods' and announce a window when the fixes will be available because of overwhemlingly negative feedback
- adress the elephant in the room; the actual simulation. Are they planning to make the game an actual game with deeper gameplay depth and adress all the concerns repeated 1000 times before. Or is this it? Is this the gameplay loop of CS2 and no revision is planned apart from some balancing of numbers and a litle UI button there.

I think personally a lot of hopefull people are in for a rude awakening on the last point. I believe this is the gameplay loop. They dropped hints last year like 'all gameplay goals have been reached', 'the game is fun, the simulation is good'etc.
Pretty sure they don't have the kind of plan you would like to hear about. Their patch policy doesn't matter much because it seems any fixes will take a lot of time anyway. As for the actual simulation: RIP. They probably don't know yet what exactly they can and will change. But obviously they're not re-designing the game. Which isn't something they'd want to communicate. (I mean, put yourself in their shoes. Would you?)
 
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a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic.

How is this unrealistic? Most schools in the US range from 1st-5th grade for Elementary, 6-8th for Middle School and 9th-12th for High School. A majority of these schools would have more than 1000 students in total.

It is dependent on size/population density of course, but given the size of the schools in the game, I'd say the schools in game look bigger than your average school in the US and even if not, a real city school would service an area beyond a few blocks of where it's situated, some schools provide education for students miles away if in a rural area.
 
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We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.
No need to investigate much longer. It is only happening at bus stop shelters. They are placed too close to the street side, not only causing slow boarding, but also somehow giving the bus a hard time leaving the bus stop.
Note that this is somehow causing strange behavior by garbage trucks as well, also to be found among the bugs reported on this forum.

Bringing us to the thing I'm wondering about the most. Why are these things mentioned by the CEO in the WotW, but is there no involvement at the bug reports? We players can tell you what is happening, but if you are not using your community to your benefit, then why do you have a forum in the first place?
 

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Hmm...
The Word of the Week does not say much, but that is not unexpected.
In the past PR promised a ton but ... we all know what happened. I understand it is time to shut up or bring meaningless words until CO can actually improve the product. It is probably better than empty promises.

I like CS1 and would love to see a successful successor. I will wait but I am fully aware of the dwindling user base. The race against time has started because at one point the player base will be so low that it does not make any sense anymore to release a DLC.
CO has to be quicker than that... but sadly, I feel CO may not win the race.

The next patch is maybe 1.5 months away... but I hope to see a more meaningful word of the week soon.
 
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Thanks for the insights! Could we please have answers to the following questions as well?

1) How citizens decide if they are going to leave the city or just become homeless and camp in some public space?

2) How citizens decide to become thieves?
 
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I don't understand why small fixes and new smaller service buildings wasn't implemented yet. With some smaller versions of the most used assets the game experience would be improved. The schools and institutes are totally oversized. Get rid of a ton of parking that is always empty in the assets. Sometimes less is more.
 
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With regular patches they would also get immidiate feedback from people with different hardware.
I don’t think CO has been interested in feedback. I can’t think of when they’ve ever acknowledged any so far.

EDIT: Looks like I spoke too soon…Mariina did reply to some posts today, but I’d still feel a lot better if I felt like there was more acknowledgment of the issues raised in the community and less pride taken in releasing the game in this state.

I could never be proud of releasing software this broken as a finished product. Ever.
 
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I don’t think CO has been interested in feedback. I can’t think of when they’ve ever acknowledged any so far.
They were interested in the feedback within the first few weeks since launch. Then, after 3 or 4 weeks, when the majority of the issues has gone beyond seriousness, things start declining.
 
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You're right in a way, the problem here isn't that things are faked, it's that they're faked so obviously. If they can't make the game run well by simulating every single agent, and the time dilation is holding things back, then I see two options. One is to just fake it better. Wouldnt be too hard to run calculations for certain areas and add dummy traffic, or fill a park with fake citizens if it's supposed to be busy but no one can get there. The other option is to simulate a time closer to reality, just go all in on the realism. Neither one is easy, and what we got instead was a quick easy fix to a fundamentally broken game.
Or…and this is the great thing about a sequel…the devs could have taken on a far less ambitious number of changes and made CS2 work a whole lot more like CS1. I think overhauling traffic and the economy to such a level as they did was too much on top of trying to get the game to work on the version of Unity they used. They had to have had a lot of architectural issues behind the scenes for this to take 5 years and still be this big of a mess.
 
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No offense, but Is this your usual behavior to interact with people and companies that you don't trust? Why don't you just call it a day, accept that you have been scammed and move on with your life? Do you have a life in any case?
No offense but why don’t you care when when people get ripped off. You know the funny thing is I haven’t even bought the game. I tried it on Gamepass. However I do find it concerning when a company that I and many others trusted, willingly rip them off and then get mad when they get mad.

No offense but do you care about your fellow gamers or are you to busy trying to justify theft?

Why don’t I move on and do I have a life, no I do t think I will move on, I will stay here holding them accountable and hoping they fix their product. One we were all excited for. As for having a life, that’s not something I am going to discuss with you. Sure I have a family, a career and hobbies and i am not dead yet so yeah I have a life. Thankful for it and very happy. I hope you are as well.

I am glad some are enjoying the game, I wish we all could.
 
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Mmkay, so ya'll remember how they were like.. Actions speak louder than words.. Yeah. They do - that's mostly negative now.
And that's what happens when you don't humble yourself to a community that feels ripped off.

It's all fine, honestly, I feel much better now, knowing that people will stay clear of this game - and hey maybe, one day, CS2 might be as advertised and on said day.. I'm sure most of us wouldn't mind giving you some credit and a thumbs up, until then.. I hope this is the wake up call you needed.
 
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