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CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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I haven't touched this game since early November...and I won't be touching it again until mod support comes out. I keep coming back here to read the WOTW for actual news on the development process...not a glorified FAQ that is basically republishing the old dev diaries.
 
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I keep coming back here to read the WOTW for actual news on the development process...
Then in that case, you don't need to spend your time and keep coming on a weekly basis, because WOTW as of update #11 is not about that. You can read more about it at WOTW #11 which apparently you missed.

Here is the link


Edit: I keep coming back here to read the WOTW because the questions and answers are very useful to me. I even asked a couple of questions I had and I hope these will be answered next week.
 
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There's nothing they can say that would do any good. (A sincere apology, maybe, but would you believe Mariina?) Continuing the WoWs is the weirdest move. They had it right the first time: If you don't have anything substantial to say it's better not to say anything at all. I mean just look at the reactions.

Do I like the situation we're in? No. Do I think CO can do anything about it now? Also no.

Releasing the game unfinished and everything was a super bad decision (who would have thought!) but it's done. Only way to gain back trust is fix it and that clearly won't happen over night.
Paradox probably told them yo do something about the state of the community, or else...

But she keeps puting her foot in her mouth.
 
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Q1. Will CO abandon its ludicrous plan to tie patches to DLCs or major updates? You did that in CS1 and it was awful. Things like the inter-city train bug went unfixed for over a year because CO refused to release a patch simply to fix something! That is fundamentally wrong. As long as the game has bugs then CO needs to fix those bugs ASAP, which includes releasing patches the moment they are ready. Learn from your mistakes, CO!

Q2. If the asset editor for public release is so broken it's possibly months away from being released, how are CO adding assets to the game now? Are you using another tool or simply some monumentally slow workaround? It might be my own ignorance but I really don't understand how in developing a game like this you haven't had a working editor since way back because it's a tool you'd use yourselves.
 
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Fact is that this game has a hard limit of how many agents can be on the move, even though it was sold as having no limits.
In C:S 1 that was a data structure constraint as it enumerated moving agents using a 16-bit integer. In C:S 2, it is an application limit and can easily be modded out.
 
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Consoles are something we've committed to at announcement, but as those are not available to purchase there's no revenue from them. All the optimizations required for it will benefit the PC. We believe we can find places to still optimize the game further without dumbing down the simulation. Though it also requires work for different reasons.
For consoles, you'd want to offload more of the compute to the GPU, as game consoles are designed as embedded systems (excluding PlayStation and Xbox series and, which are closer to HEDT class of hardware with less CPU than usual; and Steam Deck which is close to a laptop, all three of which can run PC titles as is). One of the suggestions I've come up while discussing with the BepInEx modder community was to abolish zoning cell grid and instead implement DeLaunay zoning by partitioning the areas besides the road using DeLaunay triangles and then merging every two DeLaunay triangle into a DeLaunay quadriliteral (important: this is not save-compatible with zoning cell grid). Another optimisation area for consoles might be to use 14.336km size as both heightmap and background (this might however break some other geometry optimisations that rely on the map size being an integer multiple of 1/pi).
 
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They were interested in the feedback within the first few weeks since launch. Then, after 3 or 4 weeks, when the majority of the issues has gone beyond seriousness, things start declining.
After reporting about 25 bugs and reading many many more, I cannot confirm. The amount of bugs with a single reaction from CO is close to 0. Even the most serious bugs lack any involvement.
At least there's a positive side to it. When going from 0 to 0, the decline is 0% as well
 
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In every WOW, they keep telling us that we have to wait, sounds like the unfinished game is what we deserved and we are unpatient and unreasonable. But why do we have to wait? They get our money before we get the unfinished game, without waiting a minute. Now they ask us to wait, for at least A YEAR. Not to mention that they keeps lying, which means none of the timeline and promise is believable.
Maybe 10 years later, CSII will become better than now (or maybe like SC5). But it is a truth that we are decieved. We paid money and can't play the game for a year, we are told that we are toxic.
Their stratege is simple. Give us a unfinished one first, then blame us for not enjoying the trash and polish it slowly, finally show us something barely OK and claim that they are right and we are wrong.

This message has recieved an alert "Off topic, trollish or real-world current affairs", I don't know why :)
 
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The dev responses here are a mile better than recent communication from CO (if those two dev responses had been the WOTW instead of what they actually released, I have no doubt whatsoever the response would have been at least somewhat more positive), but it really concerns me that CO just doesn't seem to comprehend the issue around delaying bug fixes until DLC/feature upgrades with the state that the game is currently in, alongside non-responses about bugs raised on the forums.

I really hope CS2 succeeds and is able to make a comeback, but it's such incredibly damaging PR to delay crucial fixes for weeks if not months, not acknowledge/provide updates on fixes for bugs raised on the forums, and to brush off the whole situation as being necessary.

It reminds me of what happened with the Starfield launch - Bethesda did such huge damage to their own game with the same approach, and while they've now fixed some of the most egregious bugs, the fix delay and the PR mess with a lack of communication in the interim alienated a huge proportion of the fans who had kept playing, and they're now facing a much harder turnaround to get people to care about the game again.

The point is, if there's communication and patch fixes when they're done throughout, players who want to like the game will stick it out. If the response with bug fixes is "you'll get it eventually" and there's minimal communication for long enough, it takes a Phantom Liberty-level effort to even rekindle enough interest in the game for the long-term fixes, and not to have those eventual fixes arrive to disinterest because the game is effectively seen as dead, as Paradox already saw with Imperator.

Waiting until late March for fixes is a really bad idea that, along with delaying future fixes similarly, will make it far harder for CO to bring the game back to what it could be. The community feedback has been effectively universal on that point, and CO need to hear it, and ignore it very much to their own and CS2's detriment.
 
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I fear we've been a situation where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't when it comes to the communication with the community. We will not subject our personnel to any form of abuse and in the current climate it's very difficult for us to have interaction that is not overwhelmingly stressful. Therefore I asked for civility and we all saw how that went. We are doing our best and we'll just have to wait and get the results in the game to get passed this. It will take the time it takes as unfortunately there's no way to speed things up more than we already have.

Unfortunately a roadmap is not something we'll be sharing at this time. We'll only share concrete news with solid dates which means the work is already done or closed to being done. We'll be following the publisher's lead on all news and dig into the details when we can.

Maybe it's better to understand the frustration of the community. and explain what are you working on. apologize to people who want apology. personally I don't care for apologies. I just want to know if CO is going to work on the simulation performance issue. that's my main concern.

You are working hard to diffuse the situation I understand. But you maybe not best at addressing the negative reaction. it's ok. many of us are not. That doesn't make you bad. If me, I'd let someone good with this in my team to handle the negative response. pay them extra maybe. The way to do it I believe is by acting like a salesman not a boss to his employees. We are customers after all. Understand the frustration of the community, accept negative response and explain the things you are working on and how you learned from the mistakes so far. One good thing is that people are upset because they love your game and expect more from it.

It's frustrating to you to have to repeat yourself and deal with this for sure. but that's part of the learning from mistakes, and you can reduce the toxicity and buys you time. you'd find many are forgiving, reasonable and willing to wait. Personally, I'm only concerned about performance. I think it's not acceptable at this level. I can live with all other bugs. and I want to know if this can be fixed and roughly when.
 
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This is a "vanilla" game. What were people expecting? There are some choices they made they I scratch my head about -- if they could give us these exquisite road engineering tools, why couldn't they give us a simple prop line tool (or props, for that matter)...

But that isn't something that "breaks" the game. People are whining about the lack of variety ... but good grief, do they remember vanilla CS1? Look at what some creators out there ARE producing already with this game. Is the game perfect? No. Has it realized the same level of success as its predecessor? No. But the juvenile "yucking" by some taints the entire experience.
Vanilla CS1 at beginning had at least two variants of all buildings and different map visuals (even though bad). And YOU CANNOT COMPARE IT TO CS1.

You buy a brand new car from Ford, but you see that while you were promised an amazing car full of cutting edge tech and cool features, you see that it only has a steering wheel and pedals. Bc there is no window rolling mechanism, there are no windows at all. Radio is broken. Air conditioning doesn't exist. It's more stripped out than a rally car. Do you then go "oh but (1908) Ford Model T also didn't have much"? No.
 
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For me it would be just knowing that they are working on anything...so far they are just producing press messages and saying everything is ok. I think this job attitude Is not from what Finland is most proud of.
 
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Is it possible for residents to buy a new car if their household doesn't have one?
Short answer is, yes. But how likely? Not much.

Someone tried these steps to see if residents buy a new car:

"I created a city with train connection only. I zoned only residential. All citizens moved in without cars. I re-rolled a commercial building until I got a car dealership.
Since it was the only commercial building, all residents visited it, but nobody bought cars.
Then I tried to re-roll another building until I got a gas station. I couldn’t.
Then I made cargo-rail-station, so that goods can be imported.
Then I was able to roll a gas station.
Also car dealership spawned a truck to get vehicles from the train cargo station.
Then I saw 3-4 cars running around in the city. I was expecting many cars to be bought, but it was extremely rare.
Then I zoned commercial, industrial & offices very far away from the city, so that cims have a reason to buy cars (no public transport).
I also set the taxes into -10% so money is not a big issue.
Still no luck. Nobody goes to work. They just work remotely I guess. They still walked all the way for the shops. At this point there were 10 cars max in the city.
So yeah, they buy cars. But simulation is so slow it is negligible. Only cars in your cities are from cims that moved in with them."
 
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