CO Word of the Week #5

[co_martsu]

This week I’ll keep things brief and focus on what’s happening on modding. As suspected, modders wait for no-one and they have already achieved really cool stuff like maps and code mods which is amazing!

Cities: Skylines II release build included an unfinished version of the Editor and it didn’t take long for it to be found. The modders took almost no time to figure out how they could create maps and started to advance the Editor tools to their liking. Again, just like with the first Cities game I am astonished by the effort you are all putting into modding the game. I love it!

However, I must ask for caution because any work done with the hidden unfinished Editor may break since there are still going to be changes to it. This is not to discourage you from working on your mods but rather to try and openly share what to expect. Some of the most notable changes will be in how the maps are saved so we can’t guarantee the maps saved on an unfinished version of the Editor will work with the game in the long run. We’re currently testing the map Editor and there are already changes to the water placement and landscaping tools so any tools made touching upon these are also likely to break. The Editor will be released early next year, so until then don’t let that stop you, just be aware that you may need to rework some things later on.

To further help the modding community we’ve updated the wiki to include more information on asset creation. You will notice there are no instructions for the level of detail models. This is because we’re working towards an automated system where you wouldn’t have to worry about the LODs unless you actually want to make them by hand (or the complexity of the asset requires it). Any other information will be added to the wiki as it becomes available.

We would like to invite all mod, map, and asset creators to join early access to the Editor for a few weeks before its release so you can see what it is like, test out your already created mods, and share your feedback with us. If you have experience creating mods for Cities: Skylines please sign up here.

I can’t wait to see all the things coming for Cities: Skylines II from the modding community!

And finally a quick update on the higher priority items mentioned last week: Performance improvements are on their way as we’re reducing the cost of rendering geometry. Bug fixing is going forward nicely and the mail and export bugs are getting sorted out. We are also working on a fix for some achievements not unlocking, statistics bugs, and a taxi getting stuck because someone left their child in it. Parenting is hard. A full list of fixes is introduced with each patch, so check the patch notes if you are interested in more details!

You may expect a bigger patch coming out in December before we go on a holiday break in three weeks. During the break, there are no patches and limited responses from the team while we take time off work. But until then, we’re working our hardest!

Sincerely,
Mariina

 

[co_avanya]

I'll just pop in and answer a few questions.

thanks for the update
can we expect the next patch in the first week of December?

We don't have a release date set for the patch yet. Essentially, as soon as it's approved for release, we release it, which means we don't have a date to announce before you have the patch.

I have problem with high density res building stucking to level 3 and not upgrading to 4and 5 and I think Is a bug because they are happy and rich and the other problem i seem to have in my 2 cities i have like 4 precent teens and my highschool elegable students are 500 for 80 000 population which is unrealistic thank you for the hard work

If you haven't already, please make sure to report this on the bug forum so we can investigate it.

Cities: Skylines 2 - Bug Reports

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Please take a look at the flickering shadows bug with day night cycle enabled.

I am desperately wait for it to be fixed before enjoying the game

We're aware of this issue, however, performance improvements and gameplay fixes are taking priority over visual issues like this one.

If the Editor is planned to be released early next year, does mean that official support for script mods (publishing via Paradox mods etc) won’t be till then too? Could script mods be available via paradox mods earlier or is it depending on Editor too?

The initial release of the Editor will come alongside support for code modding and sharing of content through Paradox Mods. As evident by the mods already available, official support for code modding isn't required, but we hope to make life easier for modders in the future.

 

[co_avanya]

I hope the other traffic getting stuck (not just taxi's) is also being worked on, this can bring a city to a standstill with the only way to resolve being to bulldoze the vehicle owners home. I have had this with motorcycles (riderless) and cars, but it seems mainly motorcycles.

When it happens, this has a mjor knock on effect, city & game wide, with service vehicles despawning, performance tanking (due to huge flocks of cims being stuck) etc.
The stuck vehicles do not de-spawn on their own, ever. Bug already reported with save where its occurring fwiw.

The best way for us to catch all the cases where traffic gets stuck is to get saves with it happening. Ideally, save the game with the camera pointed at the stuck vehicle and then make a report on the support forum for us to investigate. It makes it much easier for us to investigate existing cases so we very much appreciate the reports and saves you share.

Cities: Skylines 2 - Bug Reports

forum.paradoxplaza.com

My Cims leave their dog at the cemetery . After a while there are 100 dogs waiting at the cemetery for their owners, while the owners are at home chilling.

Do you remember if this save was created before or after the patch on the 9th of November, which rebalanced stray pets? If it's from after the 9th we would very much appreciate the save, you can add it to this thread:

Dogs get stranded at bus station.

Information When reporting a crash, stability or performance problems, please ensure that you have the files ready for submission [CLICK] I understand Required Summary Dogs get stranded at bus station. Steps to reproduce Have a bus station with...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Will the performance improvements include simulation speed for higher population? For some, the simulation speed starts slowing down already close to 100k pop.

We're working on the level of detail fixes first, but once they are in, we’ll work on improvements to CPU performance. This means focusing on the CPU stutters and simulation performance to improve simulation speed and smooth experience while scaling up the size of your cities.

 

[co_martsu]

Thanks for all the feedback. When it comes to the gameplay and simulation we set goals for the game and we have reached those goals.
Surely there are issues that we're looking into and fixing bugs, but the overall gameplay experience is what we aimed for. Cities: Skylines II is the better game compared to the first one. If you dislike the simulation, this game just might not be for you. If there is a bug that ruins it for you there's a good chance it's fixed sometime in the future. Games are a subjective experience and it is impossible to please everyone. There's a bugfixing patch on its way soon however, so hopefully we'll be able to resolve at least some of the issues that may be a deal breaker for some. We thank you for your patience!

For clarity the above is for the simulation and gameplay. The performance is not where we want it to be and we are hard at work to improve it. This is also the reason the consoles were delayed. The modding support is an important part of a Colossal Order game, so it will also be rolling out as soon as possible.
We are disappointed we couldn't make these aspects of the game ready for you on time, but we refuse to give up. The missing features and platforms will be available in the upcoming months.

 

[co_martsu]

Will there be patches with quality of life improvements based on suggestions from the forum section, or is the plan to release bug fixes first and then focus on DLCs? (After the modding support and editor has been released).

We simply haven't had the time to look into the suggestions yet, but we will after we're in a place where we feel we can start thinking about new content and features. Getting the community feedback is exactly the way we love creating games: hearing your ideas and getting inspired by it.

Makes me wonder if the failsafe mechanisms work as intended now. I'm enjoying the game as it is, but I also would like to tweak them to bring more challenge.

Some of us don't like those so called faisafes but I totally understand why they are in. This game is aimed to be accessible for everyone, also for more casual players. I'm more than sure that there will be mod or mods that removes these failsafes and those of us who wish to have more realistic or more difficult simulation will have it in the near future.

We will be evaluating the difficulty level and the failsafes based on the feedback we've gotten. It's like you say, we want the game to be easy to get into but it should also offer enough challenge. We just need to properly evaluate if the problem is rather how information is displayed, if any bugs are affecting the outcome or is a failsafe out of balance. We'll be listening to you and also running play tests to make sure we're on the right track.

And I'm sure there's going to be an Iceland mod where the system is just allowed to collapse and there's no government subsidies.
^^Hint to all the modders out there: this sounds like it would be a popular mod

 

[co_martsu]

Now, if only I'd realised that before I laid out £90 for it, I'd be a bit less aggrieved at being taken in by the marketing "if you can dream it, you can build it" spiel.

Out of curiosity what specifically in the building part is lacking, is it the amount of content or the tools or the simulation and how it behaves? Of course the marketing line is rather grand and the game does not yet have the same quantity of content than CS1 has. You may have shared the points that you don't enjoy in the game already so no need to repeat yourself only to spoil my curiosity if you don't feel like it!

When it comes to the bugs reported we have the team looking into them and I think some of you may find the next patch fixing some of the things bugging you. Not all, but some.

 

[co_avanya]

I just want to jump in with a few notes on the great feedback being shared here. First of all, please consider also adding your feedback to the suggestions forum (or posting there instead if you don't want to double post), as it's often much harder for us to find the feedback again in threads like these ones, that tend to have a shorter lifespan.

Cities: Skylines 2 - Suggestions

forum.paradoxplaza.com

And always be as specific as possible. For example, if there are features from Cities: Skylines you miss, then it's great to let us know exactly what those are. It's the same with information you feel is lacking or something you expect to work differently. Specifics are super helpful for us to understand what you're looking for. And it's the same for issues you might run into as well. You can't really get too specific.

 

[co_martsu]

If you dislike the simulation, this game just might not be for you.

I apologize for the formulation of my response above. My intent was to point out that while we do our best to improve the game we will never be able to please absolutely everyone. We are fixing bugs and improving the game combining our vision with the feedback and bug reports we're getting from you, the community.

As I said it's disappointing we weren't able to meet the expectations that were set by the stellar marketing campaign and the success of the first game. However working together with you is the best part of creating games, and together we can make Cities: Skylines II the best it can be. I truly believe that.

 

[co_martsu]

Thank you for the clarification. Would you be able to pass on @unmerged(524934) comments to the development team and perhaps follow his comments? They sum up a lot of I feel about the game and its issues.

Thank you, we're collecting all the feedback and working through it.

But you released the game anyway.

Yes, the game is out now and there's no going back.

It already is a good game. And I'm positive that when the major bugs are sorted out the reviews and player numbers will change to the better too. I personaly will not go back to CS1 because CS2 obviously IS the better base game in many ways.

We keep working on it! Gameplay bug fixes are on their way, thank you for your patience!

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on what you intended to communicate versus what you actually said.

However, there's another line in your original message which stood out to me: "Games are a subjective experience." This is true, but in context it sounds like an attempt to marginalize or silence criticism by writing it off as subjective. You can say the experience of your game is subjective, but you cannot claim that you charge subjective prices for it.

Thank you. I'll try to explain myself:
The issue Player A faces is different from the issue Player B faces. Player B thinks Player A's issue is not important and Player A thinks Player B's issue is not an issue at all. How do we prioritize between these? Both players have their on subjective experience which is true to them.
When we read through the feedback we have to try and understand the severity of the issue and how many players it affects. There is no simple formula but we have to go with our best guess based on the knowhow and previous experience we have. Both issues could be of similar importance and require a fix as soon as possible. They might not make it to high priority because of some other issues or the issues might be something that is as designed and then it's a matter of preference. All scenarios are possible. Somehow we need to navigate in this space and do the best we can so both players will be happy, but sometimes we fail. It doesn't mean we don't care.

Sounds pretty much like the perfect definition of "early access" to me, @co_martsu - if only you'd said those words at some point during the "stellar marketing campaign" and priced the game accordingly.

Anyway, to the relief of many no doubt, I'll give it a rest for now, there's only so many ways I can express how saddened and disappointed I am by the botched release state of this game - I was really looking forward to playing a major step forward over CS1, a game I've played over 1,300 hours in. The sad fact is, I've no desire to play any more CS2 because fundamentally the game just doesn't match the expectations you set for it.

I'm truly saddened by this. I'm sorry we failed to meet your expectations. I'm happy to hear you've spent so much time on Cities: Skylines and I hope you will be able to enjoy it still. And that maybe in time you'll be able to give Cities: Skylines II another chance.

 

[co_martsu]

The CEO just asked modders in this thread to do it. I highly doubt that CO will add it now

I merely suggested they'd most likely be quicker at it.

 

[co_martsu]

Since you're back (thank you for continuing to engage by the way, I know this is tough but this kind of communication is really necessary given where the community is at right now), I'd like to ask again as to why CO failed to communicate the incomplete/broken state of the editor / paradox mods until weeks after release rather than before release when those tools/platforms were being discussed in dev diaries and used to advertise Region Packs? And why there was no correction of the "days" statement by your staff during the livestream?

CO Word of the Week #5

This week I’ll keep things brief and focus on what’s happening on modding. As suspected, modders wait for no-one and they have already achieved really cool stuff like maps and code mods which is amazing! Cities: Skylines II release build...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

I'm not going anywhere, so please keep the questions coming.
When it comes to the editor we failed to complete it on time and couldn't catch up as quickly as we had hoped due to other priorities emerging. There was a communication breakdown that lead to miscommunication on the stream. After the launch we had to take a step back and evaluate the situation, and adjust priorities accordingly. The editor still needs work, but we'll release is as soon as we're able.

 

[co_martsu]

In my attempt to manage expectations I failed miserably and I apologize for any hurt feelings.

Cities: Skylines II is currently what it is, it has been released and we can't change how the launch went. This is a fact we must live with and it's sad that expectations were not met. Now I can only assure you that we will keep working on the game (and release patches, of course!).

The marketing campaign is something we went into with honesty. We believe what we said about the game and were excited about what we've achieved. Now we must read the feedback and understand where the game fails and try to fix it. The game won't change into something it's not but we can make sure that our vision and intent comes across clearly for everyone playing. Whether it be fixing bugs hindering the experience or improving how the game gives feedback and explains things to the player.

I hope you'll accept my apology and extend your patience just a bit more to give Cities: Skylines II a chance.

Sincerely,
Mariina

 

[co_martsu]

When are we looking at the next patch being ready? An estimate would probably reignite some excitement for those not happy with the game. Even pushing a bug patch if the LOD fixes are still being finalised to get it released sooner I think would do a world of good

While the performance is still being worked on (and this will continue for as long as it's needed to get the results we're after) we have a bugfixing patch coming your way today.

I'm a creative too and understand how difficult it can be when something we're so passionate about gets received poorly. Sometimes it's justified and sometimes it's not, but as you say it's subjective and we creators can't control the reception. I am sympathetic to how you and the team are feeling, while also being surprised, disappointed, and frankly a little displeased at the state of the game at release. €90 is a lot to spend on something that subjectively to me seems utterly broken and doesn't seem like five years worth of work (if I'm remembering the development timeline correctly).

It's already been mentioned, but I'd also like to encourage you to start next week's WoW with an unqualified apology, a brief post-mortem of why the game was released for the PC rather than being delayed, and a list of fixes actively being worked on. Real transparency is going to be required to mend some of the fractured trust. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe people can be forgiving (even on the internet). It's up to you to give them that opportunity. I'd encourage you to do so in the next WoW so it's more visible.

My aforementioned surprise, disappointment, and displeasure is solely because I want the Cities: Skylines franchise and CO to succeed. You're right, the game is out now and there's no turning back the clock. There's still time to shift course and turn this whole episode into an example of how a game developer should handle these types of situations, rather than what many gamers perceive as business as usual in the industry.

Thank you for your message. We're working with the marketing team to address this and looking to do it in a format that conveys better what I want to say. I believe we've now gotten enough evidence the written word might not be my strongest skill, but what are we humans if not lifelong learners!

Now that I am enlightened that the game is not for me (although I had the impression it was after watching the dev diaries) please refund me my money and we can part our ways.

I'm sorry to hear this. Please contact the place of purchase for the refund. If you are playing Cities: Skylines I hope the game still brings you joy even if the sequel didn't.

 

[co_martsu]

Unfortunately I'm over 2 hour Steam's refund window. You are a really brave person to face the community and all the hate like you do, I respect that, no puns intended. Guess I'm stuck with the game, and yes Cities: Skylines I brought me much joy, thats why I'm so disappointed in this sequel. Guess we all have to wait for patches/reworks of game mechanics. Hope you will adress export and mail bugs in announced december patch.

Thank you. Please check the upcoming patch and keep the feedback coming!
We're working through all known issues and doing our best to improve the game so that you can enjoy it like you did the first one.

 

[co_martsu]

To everyone here: I get there's anger and disappointment, but I really need you to be respectful to each other. You and I are part of this community and we are the ones making the choices on how we want this experience to be. There is enough negativity in the world that we should at least try to make this community a positive experience by keeping the discussions, even the hard ones, constructive. We're not perfect, but let's be kind to each other.

Do you want another Cyberbug 2077? I don't. And I love The Witcher 3, and I also love Cities Skylines. But I can't look at what creators do with their next creations. If CSII looks like a premiere, how can we be sure that CSIII (maybe in 10 years, if it is created) won't be in even worse condition?
I am grateful to the developers for their games, but I cannot forgive them for making such mistakes. I don't want this to be standardized in the market.
It starts with one game, and then it will be like armor for a horse.

Trust is hard. After losing it, it will take time to rebuild. And we must now do the work. Mistakes have been made but I believe in learning and that growth both emotional and professional is possible, if there is will. So whatever the next title coming from this company is we are wiser both during the development phase and the release. However these words mean very little now, we will just have to prove ourselves with the next game we release. And first, I hope, we can focus on Cities: Skylines II for about a decade.

It can be both. We can both accept that what is done is done, but also want answers as to why they released it in such a state, even though we won’t get one.

Mistakes do happen in development, but they have stated multiple times that they are satisfied with the games release and simulation, which to me is definitely not so. I’m glad she apologised, but CO still seem to find the games simulation etc acceptable.

I believe there is greatness in the game. It's not translating to the players as we hoped it would and that is something we are working on to improve. I am proud for the work done and even if we did run out of time I know the the team and myself are working our hardest to improve game so the experience wouldn't be hindered by the issues. Performance is one thing, bugs another and then we have a wide variety of feedback to work through.

 

[co_martsu]

@co_martsu Mariina, stop digging - the headlines are writing themselves at the moment "Game dev boss admits devs ran out of time but promises game will be fixed some day" Have a word with your PR people, or Paradox's, or someone, please.

Joking aside, at least you are acknowledging that running out of time was indeed a factor in the game's botched release state, thank you for that.

Yes, I did get scolded by @co_avanya and I apologize to them too for causing extra headaches. I will have PR people check the next wow with a magnifying glass, I promise. I bet they are relieved I'm actually not on X (Twitter)!


All joking aside, there's a lot of things needing to be addressed. And the first course of action is taken very soon when a bugfixing patch is released.

 

[co_avanya]

In regards to the comments about missing information on how the simulation works, I just wanted to mention, that if you come across some great discussions on this, either here on the forum, Reddit, or really anywhere, we'd appreciate the heads-up. There's a LOT to dig into when it comes to how the simulation works, so it's important that we understand what information you're looking for - both for any potential deep dives we might do and what information is available in the game through notifications and info views.