CO Word of the Week #8

[ClemiMD]

Remember, no-one but you and your company chose to release the game.

I am not sure if this statement is true. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[mackau]

I am not sure if this statement is true. Can anyone confirm this?

Who else would decide apart from the Dev and Publisher?

An Interview with Cities: Skylines 2 developer’s CEO, Mariina Hallikainen

A hugely successful early game can become a developer's own worst enemy.

arstechnica.com

"Hallikainen: For us, of course, it's a joint decision between the developer and the publisher."

 

[ClemiMD]

Thanks, that's what I was getting at. The statement implied that it was CO's idea alone to release the game in this way.
Spreading half-truths is not a good basis for an objective discussion.

 

[unmerged(524934)]

@co_martsu Mariina, this is a bit depressing to be honest, I'm not sure this is the tone you should be taking with the game in the state it was released in and the state it's in currently. I get you want to protect your team and, by extension, the Cities Skylines IP but turning on the community and making it sound like there's only a binary choice for the forum and your/CO's involvement in it i.e. either a) you're going to stop communicating with us or b) you're going to build a bigger banhammer, is disingenuous at best. There are plenty of options for you/CO to interact with the community, many of which have been laid out in the 7 or so pages preceding this.

What I'd personally like to see is a concrete, itemised list of bugs currently being worked on; a bit less defensiveness on your part; a bit more acknowledgement of the missteps that have got us to this pass; and finally, a firm idea of when I, as a paying customer, can expect to receive everything I've already paid for.

I'll make that last point again in case it's not clear - I've already paid £80 for a game that was sold as the ultimate "if you can dream it, you can build it" city simulator, I've already paid for the expansions, and I currently have absolutely no idea (beyond a vague "later") when I'm going to get the things I paid for.

Given that last point, would you be happy if you were me?

 

[ifredn]

I honestly disagree regarding the toxic stuff.

It was in your hands to release a product which does NOT produce a toxic behaviour. You decided to release it in a state that is below all standards.

And that´s why you get negative feedback.

The game is still in a state that is below all standards. That´s why this will not stop until its in a better state.

If I were you - stop selling this game, close the forums, go back into your office, keep heads down and start working. Try again next year.

 

[rufen]

Oh man, toxicity from people who bought a broken product that you yourself said didn't live up to the standards you set with your marketing lies, with no refunds possible?

Shocking.

This is like telling a restaurant they gave you food poisoning and being told that you're toxic for letting them know they made you sick.

Remember, no-one but you and your company chose to release the game.

• CO decided not to delay the game on PC and instead released it like it was an early access beta but for full price to use PC customers as guinea pigs for an eventual console release.
• CO knew your game was broken months if not years ago and never told anyone, and hid the issues behind an expensive marketing campaign.
• CO required their sponsored marketing influencers sign NDA's to stop them talking about the performance issues, and only at the very last second did you update the community (while trying to hide it as much as possible) about poor performance without having a supercomputer at 1080p.
• CO don't have any in-house QA and have left the bug forum filled with unanswered reports.
• CO\Paradox cut out Steam Workshop without telling anyone until extremely late.
• The first big response made about the game's poor launch was a video blaming fans for "pressure" created as a direct result of your choices in how you marketed the game.
• You told players that if they didn't like the broken simulation that the game "isn't for you", instead of apologising for releasing it broken in the first place.
• There has been zero public accountability over the failures. In most companies a failure this big would have resulted in immediate, significant for cause firings.
• The next big response is to call the people you lied to and sold a dud product "toxic".

You sold a broken product and lied about it for profit.

Stop gaslighting your customers.

I'm sorry, what?

I'm really pissed at CO, but a lot of those points are lies. That's what toxic is. They warned us a week ahead about the state of the game, you could have cancelled your pre-order, or not buy the game at all at that point. YOU chose to buy it anyway.

 

[elektrizikekswerk]

I honestly disagree regarding the toxic stuff.

It was in your hands to release a product which does NOT produce a toxic behaviour. You decided to release it in a state that is below all standards.

And that´s why you get negative feedback.

The game is still in a state that is below all standards. That´s why this will not stop until its in a better state.

If I were you - stop selling this game, close the forums, go back into your office, keep heads down and start working. Try again next year.

"Negative feedback" and "being toxic" are not synonymous

 

[mackau]

They warned us a week ahead

Their "warning" was:

"Cities: Skylines 2 is a next-gen title, and naturally, it demands certain hardware requirements, with that said, while our team has worked tirelessly to deliver the best experience possible, we have not achieved the benchmark we targeted".

That is not a "warning", it was a vague marketing blurb designed to be as obtuse as possible. No mention that anything above 1080p would be essentially unplayable without a supercomputer. Nothing about how when they say "next-gen" they meant "next-gen Nvidia 5090 flagship" level instead of next-gen consoles.

"Demands certain hardware requirements" was a drastic understatement for a game which according to benchmarks from respected reporters needed a 4090 and a 12700kf to get 70 fps average at MEDIUM at 1080P for a 100k pop. Where anything below a 4060 needed 1080p/LOW wouldn't be able to get 30fps average.

Victim blaming users who bought the game based on the marketing campaign that paradox later said didn't match the game itself (yet they still released it), is real toxicity.

 

[Purplizer]

This Wow is just ... wow.

As a professional working in marketing & communications for ages, I simply can't understand how some of CO's/PDX's communications are allowed to be published. Do not get me wrong @co_martsu and @co_avanya, I completely agree that these Words of the Weeks are necessary and I admire you for doing so. However, that being said, it also shows major flaws in your communications strategy.

For starters, the tone of these WOW's seem to change every other week. Sometimes they are positive and give the necessary details, sometimes they are defensive, sometimes they seem to touch the correct points but in a completely wrong way, and sometimes they show how out of touch with the community you are (or seem to be). Please allow me to give a couple of examples.

- Defensiveness:

• We all know CS2 is launched in a state that is nowhere near 'ready', whatever that means. And I agree you as a CEO should defend your people, try to elaborate on the choices you made, and look forward. But if by doing so you are calling out on the community, try to defend choices that were clearly wrong, or simply start saying things which you shouldn't have. Then everything you do is in vain.

- Touch points incorrectly:

• You are right to call out everyone who is being toxic. However, like in every community, toxicity is the result of a vocal minority. The way over half of your post is dedicated to this is so so wrong, because you give them the attention they seek. I do not think the majority of comments of WOW8 would be talking about toxicity if you simply ended a well written, positive and detailed WOW with this statement, but shortened to maybe one paragraph. Those who are toxic will not change their behaviour. All you do is disappoint the rest of the community with a WOW in which there is no new information whatsoever.
  
  
• You clearly try to engage and listen to the community by asking them for feedback and suggestions, which is textbook stuff. However, at some point it has to end. You have a whole suggestions and bug report section dedicated to exactly this. The community has spoken. You can't keep asking for more. That will only generate more backlash, because people are angry. Angry because of an underdelivered game. Angry because of the multiple points I'm elaborating on in this post.

- Out of touch with the community:

• You delivered a flawed PC version, everyone knows that. And everyone here is waiting anxiously for new necessary patches. But now suddenly you are saying "o therefore the Editor is the highest priority but in parallel, we’re also working on the stability and performance on console to make the game available for the console players as soon as possible." No, please, no. Fixing the pc version should be your priority. PC users have already payed you, and received something flawed You can think what you wrote there, but do not write it down! You could have said "but in parallel, we’re also working on the stability and performance of CS2. Once the game is stable and bug free, the release on console can also happen." That way you address your aggrieved pc users, give them what they want, and give console users a short update.
  
  
• The behind the scenes video: what a disaster that was. Again: good call to produce such a video, but some of the things said in there are simply out of touch with the community and have lead to more backlash. [profanity moderated out]

- Positive and well written

• But, not everything is bad! Just like CS2 in general, there are so many positive things. WOW 7 was well written. It gives clear information, it shows the road forward/ahead. And you also see that in the comments.

My 2 cents as a MarCom professional: Please keep on writing WOW's. The community deserves them after all that has happened. But please get advice on how to write them, and follow a clear strategy. Stop the blame game. Give the community details. If they know what is being worked on, they will back down. Even if you can't give them an exact ETA, saying things such as "We do not know how many more days we need for this, but we are working hard on fixing bug X, Y and Z." will give people some actual details.

 

[Skeksis25]

The most toxic action in this whole saga is selling a broken product based on deception and lies and then 3 months later still having not done much to fix any of it or give any real plans on what is being worked on. The audience is supposed to just take your word that things are being worked on and will come at some nebulous point in the future when you literally sold a bill of goods to everyone a few months ago.

But sure, lets blame the audience for the breeding ground of negativity that you have created and done very little to clean up so far.

 

[BeSt-Com]

The editor now has highest priority. Why do I care about the editor?

I want a working game!

(Almost) all people in the game are students, a translation error? No matter.

People sleep standing up in front of the house! No matter.

People sometimes take strange paths! No matter.

Sometimes trucks fly instead of driving! Strange, but whatever.

Cars turn off main roads into dead ends, only to turn around at the end, head back to the main road, and continue in the original direction? For no reason? Annoying.

Cars get into the right lane on a three-lane road, make a u-turn just before the intersection, then another, and then turn right from the left-turn lane! No, no way, can not be true! Can you please ensure that drivers follow the rules? That's not funny!

Actually, there are only „colonies of ants“ on the move anyway, right? In my case there is only traffic going on in 1-2 streets, the rest of the city has almost no traffic. Looks like SimCity 2 or 3!

I have a save game, where around 100-200 trucks are on the road, all going to the same factory! Where is the logic?

Sorry girls and boys, I'm very disappointed!

 

[Sequeira]

I have been experiencing a major tax bug that hits between levels 9 - 11, or as soon as I add some form of cargo terminal. It results in the massive tax penalty, or income, of roughly $500 mil + / - for one industry. I know you mentioned in this posting the fixing of bugs, and I wanted to tack that one on the list as a bug that I find game breaking, personally.

Thank you for the continued hard work, and I have all the faith in the world that in a years time this game will be as amazing as CS1.

I strongly agree that this tax/subsidy bug is game breaking as it breaks all the rational of economics gameplay. Also trains and cargo boats that do not export or "not enough resource" bugs affects the economy gameplay.

 

[homerCCCP]

Lol,

CO develops a game releases a time schedule and they don't make it:
"Muh, super evil company, they took 50 bugs, so they are in all eternity my slaves and have to fix everything asap, because this is very normal"


So CO continued to develop, but to avoid the risk of disappointing, they do not communicate their targets anymore:
"Muh, evil game company, they do not provide sufficient information, I want to get exact dates when we will have what"


You realize that the big fault CO did, was not to spread lies (I cannot identifie a single evident lie!) (well, but "lie" is such a nice buzzword to collect likes and self-confidence), no,
It was to underestimate the development time needed for CS2 by 6-12 months and at the same time openly communicating this time schedule.

And now you ask them to repeat the same mistake again? To communicate internal mielstones to attract all the crymasters when one of those is failed?

Development will take several months to bring the game to a state where most people expected it to be. All the whining will not change it. Three weeks of vacations will not change this. It does not matter if they take vacations in December or March, because things will be anyway only ready by June or similar.

There is no magic button to complete the development. Hiring thousand people would not speed up the process by a single day. The current personell will have to do it and they will have to take their time for it.

Crying scam will not help anybody who wants the game at some point to feel finished, maybe only those in need of self-profilation.

Eventhough, I also want to see quick improvements and patches, because ATM for me CS:2 is despite its unfinished and unpolished state the best City builder on the market.
Still more funny to say:
"Muh evil game company, developed a game of my favourite genre and after 200 hours of playing it I realized it is not as good as I expected, refund NOW!!!"

I mean all those very smart guys here that know everything better and where CO failed, with your superior knowledge it should be easy to get some funding and quickly develop a better city builder. I will buy it, promised.

And now let the respectful disagree rain beginn. I am so happy you are respectful!

 

[Abitus]

How I feel about this in a few words:

The first and most important goal of communication with your customers should be to admit your errors in order to regain their trust, not to add new errors to the pile by making everyone more angry than necessary.

Unfortunately you keep making this exact same mistake again and again since the release.

Maybe Mariina is not the best person to handle this ? Or maybe she's just too emotionally affected to do this properly ? That would be totally understandable since she's in a though position. If so, why not letting someone else, who knows better what they're doing, be in charge of the communication ?

I have to say at first it was a very strong signal to read words from the CEO herself. I appreciated this a lot. But after several similar disasters like the "not for you" punchline, the catastrophic video and now this terrible WOTW, I think it's time to face the evidence.

 

[ifredn]

And I would like to remember the "This game may not be for you if you dont like the simulation"-Gaslight.

1st: Which simulation exactly - the simulation where we still don´t know how it should work?
2nd: The "Simulation" was and still is not working. We - as paying customers - had to "test" it. Since there was no description available.

Sorry - this "toxic" behaviour is homemade. I wonder where this self-confidence comes from.

 

[CensoredLOL]

A show of good faith is needed. When Simcity 4's launch failed, EA gave players a chance to download an entire free game, out of 3 choices.
I'd recommend offering at least one expansion for free for all players - it'll help build back your audience that has been lost. Building back your audience is more important than making profit.

The focus on console release is disturbing. Yes, it's an additional income stream - but if the glaring gameplay issues, lack of content, lack of editor, and lack of of roadmap moving forward are not resolved, it will turn into an additional complaint (or toxicity) stream, further straining your relationship with a community that obviously feels slighted.

Purplizer's post was spot on. Messaging is something that needs to be worked on. I think that some of it might be a cultural thing, having gamed and played with plenty of people from Finland in the past - the Scandinavian pragmatism isn't translating well to those of us in Western countries.

I think a new format for WoW should be used. Text based, factual information, as you have been doing - with an itemized list of what bugs (or eventually, content) are being worked on below. You need to give us a reason to be excited for patches - saying things like "eventually", "weeks away", "closed beta", and especially "console release" are only going to elicit groans.

 

[Mazisky]

I hope in a few months the mood will be better for all

 

[timfrombriz]

Not a single Colossal Order employee on the forums today. Not even a single bug report looked at and flagged today. The work day has now finished in Finland.

Very odd.

 

[Kanslee144]

I'm sorry you have to deal with toxicity like that @co_martsu . I mean, being rude and personally attacking people is never something good.

About the issue at hand, I think people here needs to realize that we're talking to a company, with stock holders and all that. Not to a single person. They're probably never going to apologize for the way the game was released and admit they were wrong. That's bad for business. They already released that PR video that had "damage control" written all over it. That's, sadly, the best that we're gonna get, even though it was far from an explanation (or an excuse) that we look for.

I'm still deeply disappointed with how this is all being handled. We had false advertising, the company putting the blame on others, talking about DLCs and console versions without resolving all the issues the PC launch had, etc.

The only good thing I saw about this WoW was this:

Before the Editor release, we’ll have a bug fixing patch that will include fixes for issues that have been resolved while the work above is ongoing. You can expect fixes for simulation and visual bugs, both based on internal findings and issues reported by you. The patch notes will be available when the patch is released. Thanks for all the reports!

 

[tweety80]

Hmm... interesting post. I mean, I am looking forward to the editor because it will add a bunch of missing features like decorations. The editor is important, yes.
Personally, I am looking forward to a CPU performance increase patch.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the editor. Maybe I can have small and nice-looking cities with some mods.

In terms of toxicity... CO/Paradox charged 50 to 90 bucks for a game that shouldn't be released. Expecting nice words? That does not really work unless we all get a partial refund and pay for it like an early access title.
I know it is standard these days to push out such half-finished products, but CO had a great reputation.