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Conclave Dev Diary #2 Power to the Council

Greetings!

I know last year featured a lot of dev diaries with very little information about new features of the game. The reason for this was the lack of an announcement of the expansion and we had decided not to talk about the expansion before the announcement. All that has changed now and last week @Doomdark gave you an overview of the features we’ve added and the aim of the expansion.

This week we’re going to go a bit deeper into the new council mechanics.

@Groogy has written the following presentation of the council:

So to the meat of this expansion and my favorite part. The empowerment of the council. As we promised we were gonna let the council in on the day to day governing of your realm becoming more than simply a privy council. Now in fact the strongest vassals in your realm will threaten with civil war if they are not given a position where they can become part of your council and in turn giving them influence on the politics of your realm. Having them on the council prevents them from joining factions and as a liege you can use this to stabilize his/her realm. The councillor will adopt a certain position, these are the colorful icons you see, and this position will dictate how they align themselves with the decisions you take but we will cover that in a later dev diary.
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Since King Alfonso is a paranoid guy and constantly in hiding, his realm is mostly ruled by his council...

The councillors can choose to either yay, nay or abstain from a vote. You also get a vote (always voting yes when you’re suggesting something) and your own vote decides in the case of a tie. The characters abstaining from a vote are always swayed by the distribution of diplomacy skill between the yay and nay sayers. Meaning that some highly influential members might turn the tide in a vote as they persuade the voters that have no opinion on the matter. If the council has a majority voting yes on an action, you’ll be free to take that action, but if the council votes against the action, you face the choice of either going against the council or do something else. Going against the council will make it discontent as you have broken the contract with them. Such action also incur tyranny and the council members become free to create and join factions again for a limited time.

For conclave we have also changed how regencies work and the old system with a single regent deciding everything is gone. Instead, If you are in a regency, the regent is put on the council and will vote instead of you and you don’t have the option of going against a council vote.

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The council also have powers to vote on your laws and even propose that a vote shall be started on something they want by cashing in on a favor they might have with their liege. But we will cover the redone laws in the next dev diary as well.

Next up @Moah, our newest addition to the team, will explain some of the new tools you have to influence your council members and how you as a vassal can make your liege do things for you:

Hello everyone,

I’m @Moah and I joined Paradox and the CK2 team recently. I’m here today to talk about Favors. As you know, in the game relationships to other characters are important, especially family. But family, friendships and rivalries are not the only kind of relationships that exist. Sometimes you just do a favor for someone, and hope that somewhere down the line, they’ll return it.

And since in the CK2 timeline debts, honor and duty had such a huge impact, we’ve modelled that through a mechanic we cleverly called “favors”.


Getting Support on the Council

As a liege (or part of the council), you can call in a favor on a council member to make them vote like you on the council for one year. This can be used to get an ok to revoke that title you want, execute someone you want to see dead and start that war that you’ve longed for, but the killjoys of the council is constantly saying no to, without the hassle of tyranny and factions. If you don’t have a favor to call in, you can request support from a council member in exchange of a favor. They can turn this down, but if they accept they’ll vote just as if you called a favor on them. The difference is that now you owe them a favor. This is one of the basic generators of favors and a way that vassals gain favors on their lieges. As a liege you can often gain a favor by fulfilling the ambition of a vassal and everyone can accept a sum of money in exchange for a favor. When dealing with powerful lords, you can expect their price to be quite high however.

You can only owe someone at most one favor at a time, so if you already owe them, you’ll have to wait in requesting support again until they’ve used that favor to gain something back. Council members can also call favors on each other and a clever vassal can set up scenarios where they control how the council votes.


Forcing Acceptance

Say you’ve accepted to support your liege on the council, or you paid the emperor of the HRE a large sum of money and you want your investment to pay off. With a favor in hand you can make them accept a marriage (some limitations apply) and gain that Non-Aggression pact you’ve been longing for.

Invite to Court, Educate Child and the Embargo interactions can also use favors to force acceptance and as the liege you can use a favor to keep a character out of factions.


Building a Strong Faction

If you have favors from your fellow vassals, you can use those to get them to join your faction (if they are valid to join the faction) and since they’re bound by the favor, they cannot freely leave the faction.


Pressing a Claim

If your liege owes you a favor, you can use that favor to propose a war declaration where he/she presses one of your claims. In order to do this, the council needs to vote in favor of the war declaration. The liege can deny your proposition, but doing so incurs tyranny and makes the council discontent.


There are more uses of favors that will be presented along with their respective features, but these were some of the basic ones.

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Now @rageair will walk you through another new feature, the Realm Peace and how it will help you bring order to the realm.


Realm Peace

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Previously, your level of Crown Authority decided if vassals were allowed to declare war or not. As of Conclave we’ve replaced this system with a more intuitive one - Realm Peace. With Realm Peace the ruler, in accordance with the Council, decide when wars waged between your vassals have to end. Do you need to change your Succession Law but your vassals just won’t stop fighting? Is the precarious balance of power in your realm being shifted by warmongering vassals? Enforce Realm Peace to make them stop!


After pressing the Realm Peace button your vassals have 3 months before the peace takes effect, after which all wars will end with a white peace. The Peace is then enforced for 60 months before your vassals can declare any internal wars. A long cooldown ensures that you’ll only want to use this ability when it’s really important, and when playing as a vassal you won’t ever find yourself in a completely deadlocked position where you’re not able to attack at all any longer!


Favors and Realm Peace

As a vassal, you can use a favor on your liege to interact with realm peace in two ways. First, you can block your liege from using the Realm Peace or stop a pending Realm Peace from taking effect. This makes sure that you actually get time to win the war that you invested all your precious coin to hire those Swiss mercenaries to fight for you and don’t just end up with nothing gained and empty coffers.

Secondly, you can ask your liege to use the Realm Peace for you. This can be pretty handy when you’re working your way to power and your rivals decide it’s time to partition your lands and join those parts into their own lands.
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That’s all for this week. Next week we’ll take a closer look at how council members vote, the new education system and how we’re turning feudal lords into small business owners.
 
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Not sure how i feel about that. In many tribal realms the power of the king was heavily circumscribed. Tribal assemblies and councils were legal necessities and different dynasties demanded representation with honorific roles. I'd nearly prefer something similar to the nomadic system you outlined.
 
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Little, they basically start out as despotic Warlords. If you want to Feudalize you have to get the backing of the elders of your people (represented by unlocking Council Laws).
I hope this will undo the need to reform the faith as a pagan wanting to become feudal?
 
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Is Conclave going to be the final DLC?
I suspect that depends on its financial success. However, it seems unlikely that CK2 would be orphaned without some other major project looming. HOI4 and Stellarius have yet to be released, so I doubt a new project is on the wings. But this can also be my wishful thinking coming through. Conclave sounds great but there is more work to be done (Inland Republics for one!).
 
Any possibility of making the eligible Cardinals and Bishops for a Papal Conclave, with you possibly having influence over major cardinals who like you or are under you, like a suggestion feature that opinion affects the outcome of?

((Sorry if this has been mentioned didn't want to read through 22 pages of comments cuz I'm really lazy:()).
 
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Little, they basically start out as despotic Warlords. If you want to Feudalize you have to get the backing of the elders of your people (represented by unlocking Council Laws).

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That kind of changes the way I view tribes in CK2.
I've always viewed tribes as warrior culture oriented like the presentation of Hrothgar's government in Beowulf. The ruler has lots of power, but depends on his warriors to remain relevant. You wouldn't call a person like Hrothgar a despotic warlord (warlord certainly), because he follows the rules surrounding gift-giving and favor granting.
Or am I misreading your statement and the check on a tribal ruler's power is favors and gifts?
 
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Is it possible to refuse having a favour bought (or otherwise obtained) in the first place (possibly with a "Refused my 'gift' " opinion malus), or will it be possible to end up in a situation where someone goes "Here's some gold (that you might not particularly need)! I'll send a marriage offer/war request/voting plan/etc. in a few months!"?

Related to that, what kind of favours cannot be refused if they are demanded as repayment?
 
If you can't break or ignore the proclamation of 'realm peace' then it is not a very good mechanic. The declaration should either be against individual war mongers (who can chose to defy it, with various consequences) or a proclamation that individual vassals can chose to follow or not. If they refuse to follow the laws, then the King (or one of his vassals) has every right to try and take his land.

Anything else would simply be making a vassal life even harder and less interesting, while making empires even more stable than they already are.
 
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If you can't break or ignore the proclamation of 'realm peace' then it is not a very good mechanic. The declaration should either be against individual war mongers (who can chose to defy it, with various consequences) or a proclamation that individual vassals can chose to follow or not. If they refuse to follow the laws, then the King (or one of his vassals) has every right to try and take his land.

Anything else would simply be making a vassal life even harder and less interesting, while making empires even more stable than they already are.

While I do agree that the mechanic has potential to be a bit too restrictive, they did state that a realm can't be under enforced peace all the time. We shall see how the AI calculates when to use the decree.
 
What are the penalties for not honoring a favor? I'd imagine it'll cost prestige and hurt your standing with the one you owe the favor to, but anything else? Or does it depend on the specific circumstance?

One increases opinion and is cheaper while one gives you a favor and is more expensive.
I think the question isn't how gifts and buying favors are mechanically different, but how they're thematically different. Hiring assassins and plotting to assassinate was mechanically different – quite materially so, since hiring assassins were one of the only ways to encourage the dissolution of a middle eastern blob, but they were removed because if you think about it, they're the same thing. Gifts and buying favors have the same issue. Seems to me that, for people who buy the expansion, favors out to replace gifts both as the thing where money changes hands, and favors ought to be used for things that you'd otherwise use gifts for such as obligating people to join your plot.
 
We'll translate the various Government Flavor triggers into EU4 governments and startup scenarios (number of vassals at game start). It'll be harder to get things such as Absolute Monarchy than it used to be, and it'll be possible to get things like Elective Monarchy. If you're playing a dedicated CK2->EU4 game you'll have an entirely different metagame in CK2. You'll get the very best result by having Imperial Administration while also having abolished ALL council laws (this is hard).
A converter update? Huzzah! I was already looking forward to this patch/dlc, but now...
 
Will a vassal head of your religion always demand a place in the council (similar to powerful vassals) regardless of his secular power?
 
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Should be able to refuse your leige when they call for realm peace. Might start a rebellion where the liege joins the war on the opposing side.
I guess if the former-vassal one they would probably want independence (or higher autonomy) since theyre basically enemies of the crown now, whereas if they (the vassal) lost, the leader would be arrested (or be allowed to be arrested) for treason or such.



Also, i was thinking variable council sizes ( >8 ), but actually, that sounds silly. Should be delegating powers to higher ranks, not having all counties as direct vassals, so shouldnt need more
 
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Is there anything preventing me from placing all my best friends in the council as advisors and winning every vote? Do advisors have to have titles?
I'm hoping that this is a big part of this - patrimony was a massive aspect of feudal rule, and favouring your friends, over the powerful magnates (something many Kings were guilty of) should be something one has to deal with
 
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Internal Politics that actually matter! Hurrah!
It does sound very interesting, and something I for one have wanted for the longest time but ultimately we need for this to be more than just a much more complicated way of declaring war on someone - there need to be an array of policies, laws, acts etc. covering all aspects of rule - they don't have to be all there right away, but added continually. This would be good but not brilliant if the same 5 laws that currently exist remain, but it's only slightly harder / takes slightly longer to introduce them.

Also, having been listening to a good Richard II podcast - we need a faction to accuse all the King's council of being traitors and get them all executed - and of course you seize a council spot for yourself along the way. Also, a Provisions of Oxford / Magna Carta -esque limit on the King's power (aka he must follow the council's decision, even if not in a regency) should be an option even if only temporary - wouldn't want an actual constitutional monarchy popping up in the early 10th Century now!
 
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I'm cautiously optimistic that if these changes work, they will open the way in future for (i) inland republics, (ii) playable theocracies, complete with cardinal-electors, and/or (iii) East Asia, including shogunates and so on.
 
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