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War, what is it good for?

In Crusader Kings II, hopefully you'll gain some titles and in the best of worlds, imprison or behead your enemy. In order to declare a war you'll first need a valid Casus Belli against your enemy(a CB held by a vassal or courtier will of course do as well). You cannot attack the vassals of someone, so if you want one of their titles you have to attack their liege. Also, unlike Europa Universalis III and Victoria II, once a war has started it cannot be extended by adding further wargoals or CBs.

Instead, each CB has three options scripted: Demand Defeat, White Peace and Reversed Demands. As an example, let's look at the Claim CB. This CB lets you attack people holding titles you have claims on. If the war is going well, you can demand that your enemy give his title to you and as a bonus you'll gain a small amount of prestige. If you fail to achieve your goal, you could sue for a white peace instead. You'd want to avoid this though, since signing a white peace gives you a prestige hit(you didn't achieve your goals, after all). White peace is still preferable to the reversed demand however, since if your enemy enforces this, you will both lose the claim and get a huge prestige hit.

CrusaderKingsII_War_2.png

While most wars will end in a peace treaty, this is not the only way they can end. Some CBs have effects that trigger when the leader of an alliance dies. An example of this is the Invasion CB, which is currently used by William against Harold. When the leader of the attacking alliance dies, the war immediately ends. Be careful when going to war with your old king...

Another part of wars is the warscore. Like our other games, you'll gain warscore by occupying enemy holdings(the capital is worth more, vassal holdings are worth less) and winning battles(in CK2, they are worth a lot of warscore). We've also added a warscore effect if the contested title is left with no controller change for some time. After three years(currently), warscore is slowly added to the person controlling the area. This means that it's now possible to win a war as a) a defender in a war by just defending your title or b) attacking someone, sieging down the title you want and then just stand still and defend those provinces. By the way, if you manage to capture and imprison the enemy leader(for example, in a battle), this automatically counts as 100% warscore. We've also removed all limits to warscore, so whoever reaches >=100% first by any combination of occupation, battles, controlling the correct territory and imprisonment automatically wins the war.

CrusaderKingsII_War_1.png

Last but not least we have tagged some CBs to be "hostile against others", for example the Invasion CB. The effect of this is that two parties contesting the same title will fight each other even if they are not at war. It might be better as William to wait a bit until Harald and Harold both have worn down their armies...

'Till next time!
Fredrik Zetterman
Programmer, Paradox Interactive
 
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The invasion CB seems great for depicting the 3-way fight for England right at the start of the game... but are there any other historical examples of a papally-sanctioned war, between two Christian realms, that resulted in the native feudal administration being wiped out and replaced?

I can't think of any, and I'm wondering if this mechanic's focus on the events of 1066 and the Saxons becoming Norman, will lead to lots of similar but hard-to-believe "winner takes all" occurences in-game. HRE invading France and making it entirely German? If it happens too often it will end up a bit like Total War...
 
The invasion CB seems great for depicting the 3-way fight for England right at the start of the game... but are there any other historical examples of a papally-sanctioned war, between two Christian realms, that resulted in the native feudal administration being wiped out and replaced?

Charles d'Anjou war (with Papal blessing) against Manfred Hohenstauffen that resulted in the Angevin kingdom of Sicily.

Then there is the failed attempt of Philip III to conquer (with Papal blessing) Aragon, to install his brother Robert as king of Aragon.

Further somewhat similar 'conquests' would be the English conquest of Ireland, the Latin Empire after the 4th Crusade, Edward I conquest of Scotland and there are probaly several other examples/
 
The invasion CB seems great for depicting the 3-way fight for England right at the start of the game... but are there any other historical examples of a papally-sanctioned war, between two Christian realms, that resulted in the native feudal administration being wiped out and replaced?

I can't think of any, and I'm wondering if this mechanic's focus on the events of 1066 and the Saxons becoming Norman, will lead to lots of similar but hard-to-believe "winner takes all" occurences in-game. HRE invading France and making it entirely German? If it happens too often it will end up a bit like Total War...

Slightly tweaked, the Invasion CB also sounds like it would be a great mechanic for Crusades.

If so, the entire peasantry of the Holy Roman Empire won't be mobilized for intercontinental warfare and a flurry of trans-Mediterranean declarations of war.

Just a single call for crusade (i.e. the CB) and individual courtiers who 'take the cross' (i.e. get a Crusader trait and then lead a personal detachment rather than drag their realm into the war/invasion/crusade).

Or something like that? More on that later i suppose.
:D


Oh and this part is magnificent:

(a CB held by a vassal or courtier will of course do as well).

Many metric tonnes of potential.
 
The invasion CB seems great for depicting the 3-way fight for England right at the start of the game... but are there any other historical examples of a papally-sanctioned war, between two Christian realms, that resulted in the native feudal administration being wiped out and replaced?
Ireland. Sort've
 
Charles d'Anjou war (with Papal blessing) against Manfred Hohenstauffen that resulted in the Angevin kingdom of Sicily.

Then there is the failed attempt of Philip III to conquer (with Papal blessing) Aragon, to install his brother Robert as king of Aragon.

Further somewhat similar 'conquests' would be the English conquest of Ireland, the Latin Empire after the 4th Crusade, Edward I conquest of Scotland and there are probaly several other examples/

Weren't the participants in the fourth crusade excommunicated?
 
Weren't the participants in the fourth crusade excommunicated?

Frederick II Hohenstaufen surely was. Hopefully excommunication won't be overused as in CK1. It should be a hard thing to pull off against your rival and if arbitrarily done weaken the pope's moral authority.
 
Frederick II Hohenstaufen surely was. Hopefully excommunication won't be overused as in CK1. It should be a hard thing to pull off against your rival and if arbitrarily done weaken the pope's moral authority.

Sorry, I don't understand, what is does he have to do with this ? He wasn't with the 4th crusade (he was only 10 at that point) and was already dead (for 16 years) when Charles d'Anjou conquered Sicily.


Weren't the participants in the fourth crusade excommunicated?

For attacking Zara/Zadar not for attacking Constantinople.
 
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You caught me, Veld. :eek:o I was thinking of the Sixth Crusade, when the excommunicated Frederick sailed anyway and met with the Sultan of Egypt to negotiate over Jerusalem.
 
For attacking Zara/Zadar not for attacking Constantinople.


Well as he excommunictaed them for attacking Zara he couldn't exactly excimmunicate them again for attacking Constantinople without recommunicating (or whatever the term is) them first, so it's kind of a moot point really.

He certainly wasn't happy about it, and didn't mince his words. Of course, this being the middle ages (and the Catholic church for that matter) he quickly changed his mind when they sent back a load of plunder, which raises another question: if we get excommunicated can we buy our way back into the pope's good graces?
 
Can vassals of the same liege fight each other with declaring on their King?
Did you mean "without"? If so, yes.

What about low-level fighting between say a French count and a German count? As has been asked here, should the Count of Charolais have to take on the whole HRE to stake his claim on Macon, and hope that the Duke of Burgundy and the King of France will back him up?

EDIT: Also, any official word on raiding, especially along frontiers, whether by event or using mercenaries?
 
If your liege is being particularly cruel or levying huge taxes on you is the possiblity of getting a casus belli against the King which if you win the war you will return to his vassalage but get greater liberties? Like the First Barons War in England and Magna Carta. King John was being particularly despotic towards his barons and Dukes and as a result they rebelled and forced him to sign the Magna Carta but continued to be his vassals after the war atleast until he decided to ride around killing all the rebellious Earls 2 years or so later :D
 
If your liege is being particularly cruel or levying huge taxes on you is the possiblity of getting a casus belli against the King which if you win the war you will return to his vassalage but get greater liberties? Like the First Barons War in England and Magna Carta. King John was being particularly despotic towards his barons and Dukes and as a result they rebelled and forced him to sign the Magna Carta but continued to be his vassals after the war atleast until he decided to ride around killing all the rebellious Earls 2 years or so later :D

Rebellions should have specific goals like you say. Maybe revoking a certain law (which could be part of plots, for which rebellion is one possible result).
 
If your liege is being particularly cruel or levying huge taxes on you is the possiblity of getting a casus belli against the King which if you win the war you will return to his vassalage but get greater liberties? Like the First Barons War in England and Magna Carta. King John was being particularly despotic towards his barons and Dukes and as a result they rebelled and forced him to sign the Magna Carta but continued to be his vassals after the war atleast until he decided to ride around killing all the rebellious Earls 2 years or so later :D
you wouldnt need a cruel liege, or even a bad one. Many of the barons wars and rebellions were just over their own ambition than having have anything to do with the king.
 
What about low-level fighting between say a French count and a German count? As has been asked here, should the Count of Charolais have to take on the whole HRE to stake his claim on Macon, and hope that the Duke of Burgundy and the King of France will back him up?

EDIT: Also, any official word on raiding, especially along frontiers, whether by event or using mercenaries?

A Kingdom should be more likely to intervene if someone is trying to take territory from their vassals. I hope the game takes into account the vassals' relationship with their liege to determine how apathetic a king will be, or just how distracted they are by another war or other issues.

I also hope there will be a wider variety of Casus Belli to cover things like raiding, looting, personal feuds, etc. Those types of low level fights should be less likely to capture the notice of a King who is busy elsewhere or cannot commit. Wars over acquiring titles or land should be relatively rare.
 
Question:

How will civil war work? Will you be able to clame the krown thru civil war and how wold the vassals withing the "kingdom" ally if one wold start a civil war to clame the throne(if having clame). Will they simply join the kings side or will it be about relationship so that for example a vassal duke of the king might join in with the throne clamer if he have better relationship with him than with the current king and at the same time gett his count vassals with him? Or wold these count vassals also just join who they have a better relatinship with?

Thanks in advance! :)
 
BTW, can the FOG OF WAR be a legitimate option to turn on and off, instead of a cheat? I don't know if anyone brought this up elsewhere, but the game gets more 'spicey' when you can watch the wars in other realms, and I don't like having to cheat to achieve that.