• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Hello everyone, I'm Tegus, one of the programmers working on Crusader
Kings II. Welcome to the fifth dev diary for CK2 and the first one written
by me. In today's dev diary I'm going to talk a bit about the map and why
we've chosen to implement a new one in CK2.

As you all know, in our games the map is an important tool for both
displaying information and setting the mood of the game. In HoI3 we had a
grayish map that we felt was appropriate for a war game. We took this map
and altered it slightly when making Victoria 2, but this time the map was
drawn with vivid colors to portray the progress of the era. The next game to
use the map was Divine Wind because we all felt that EU3 was in need of a
graphical face lift. While this map technology looked good in the
mentioned games, there were certain technological limitations which we
wanted to improve upon or get rid of.

With CK2, we have devoted time to rewrite the graphics code for the map
from scratch. We are back to a pure 3D map similar to the one used in EU3:
Rome. We have visible topology and you will be able to rotate the world
around the way you please. While neither the technology nor the art assets
are in any way final, we do feel that the new map already has great
potential and is a big step in the right direction towards our visual
goals. Hopefully this new tech will also span multiple games, so we
can steadily improve it.

crusader_kings_2_devdiary_5_ss1.jpg

To be fair, if I would describe what we have done with the map so far, it
would just be sentence after sentence of technical mumbo-jumbo, so I'll
spare you the details. Let's instead focus on what visual details that
have been improved and what we want to add before the game is shipped.

We've improved the looks of the water significantly and added refraction
so you can actually see topology under the ocean surface. Aerie has taken
the time to find real-world topology data(although we've exaggerated it
somewhat), it definitely gives a cool feel to the terrain. Borders have
also gotten some love and now use a new system which enables us to make
them much smoother. Much of the previous jaggedness is gone. We've also
begun to implement and test a more detailed lighting model, which we will
continue to improve upon until we release the game. Another cool
feature(which isn't really part of the map) are the units, whose tabards
now show the heraldic flag of the unit leader.

crusader_kings_2_devdiary_5_ss2.jpg

But there are still some things which we're missing. We need trees and
rivers. We need to add province names and realm names, which exist in all
our latest games. I'd like to add more information to borders, so borders
between two realms are colored by the realms' respective colors. There are
of course lots of more things we want to do, but I won't spill the beans
just yet.

crusader_kings_2_devdiary_5_ss3.jpg

All in all, we are very happy with the way the new map is coming along.
Hopefully you will enjoy it as well once you get to play the game!

Fredrik Zetterman, Deluxe programmer, currently working on Crusader Kings
II
 
The concept has potential, but I'm afraid that you will trade clarity and usability for looks. The map should be perfectly readable at a glance and provide vital information to the player - the eye-candy is additional stuff which improves the feeling, but usability comes first IMO. Since it's alpha, I hope that you will fill the map with easily visible information and show us its improved version in the future :).
 
The concept has potential, but I'm afraid that you will trade clarity and usability for looks. The map should be perfectly readable at a glance and provide vital information to the player - the eye-candy is additional stuff which improves the feeling, but usability comes first IMO. Since it's alpha, I hope that you will fill the map with easily visible information and show us its improved version in the future :).


That's why i hope there will be a diplomatic mode/layer :)

Even though the terrain map is very nice in my opinion, a diplomatic map looks much better, especially with medieval flavour :D
 
All even moderately-oldish Intel chips support T&L: http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/cs-011910.htm

And honestly, one cannot assume that a new game will work on 15-year-old hardware?!?

Which one are you talking about. Some ones assume differently from other ones. And the Intel GMA chips are still being sold with laptops today, so it is a consideration in order for Paradox to maximize its pool of customers. The problem and workaround for EU3 is described here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?327504-Intel-blue-map-workaround&pp=20
 
... which is no longer needed with DW.

I don't see how that is relevant to our discussion. What is relevant is the ability to run Crusader Kings 2 on a laptop using currently available graphics chipsets that lack T&L support. Many users who run CK1 successfully on their laptops may be disappointed should they be unable to run CK2 effectively on the same setup. What I take from Tegus's post earlier today is that the developers are taking such issues into consideration.
 
I don't see how that is relevant to our discussion. What is relevant is the ability to run Crusader Kings 2 on a laptop using currently available graphics chipsets that lack T&L support. Many users who run CK1 successfully on their laptops may be disappointed should they be unable to run CK2 effectively on the same setup. What I take from Tegus's post earlier today is that the developers are taking such issues into consideration.

They are. I'm just pointing out that if you can't play EU3, then chances are very high that you won't be able to play CK2 (mind you, I know nothing of the development process, this is just guessing on my side). And all laptops with Intel graphics sold these days have T&L support. Also, everyone should know by now that an Intel graphics is not a gaming graphics. So, the earlier this is said and pointed out, the less whining we will have when the game comes out.
 
Many users who run CK1 successfully on their laptops may be disappointed should they be unable to run CK2 effectively on the same setup. What I take from Tegus's post earlier today is that the developers are taking such issues into consideration.

There is around a seven year gap between CK and CK2. People really shouldn't expect to run old games and then run new games without a significant drop in either performance or graphical quality. People should also not expect an integrated graphics chip to do the work of a real graphics card.
 
There is around a seven year gap between CK and CK2. People really shouldn't expect to run old games and then run new games without a significant drop in either performance or graphical quality. People should also not expect an integrated graphics chip to do the work of a real graphics card.

But they do, and I think that developers should take those expectations into consideration when designing new games, in order to capture the widest possible market. I have said what I wanted to say on this issue, in defense of the low-end computer gamer. Have a nice day.
 
Looks pretty good, that map!
Only don't make the skies black, like in EU:Rome. Give us an actual sky. :)
 
Cool... hopefully they can be more tied to regions and less to cores os we get less 'Polish Golden horde' etc... I was very skeptical about the whole concept when it first came about but actually it's really cool. Maybe you could use the dynasty name instead of the country's? So 'Habpsburg Bohemia' instead of 'Austrian Bohemia'...

EDIT: Lying on the floor covered in Emu feathers

A bit late:eek:o

A good idea but there are exceptions, there could be Luxemburg Bohemia, but also Luxemburg Luxemburg. And there are more dynasties, like the houses of Lorraine, Burgundy or Brabant, which could result in similar outcomes.
 
But they do, and I think that developers should take those expectations into consideration when designing new games, in order to capture the widest possible market. I have said what I wanted to say on this issue, in defense of the low-end computer gamer. Have a nice day.

There is a point where that becomes unreasonable. Eventually a leap needs to be made (Roller Coast Tycoon I to II shows no graphics improvement, but II to III was a major step), especially under the circumstances that Paradox games aren't all that intensive when it comes to pushing your graphics card or your computer itself (I run a lower-end graphics card, but I have a lot of processing power). As pointed out the gap of seven years, especially seven years that saw several new OS releases, major growth in the graphics industry and you are suggesting that Paradox should hold back for people hanging onto computers from seven, eight years ago? I doubt that very much. Even the Clauswitz engine isn't brand new, a computer that handles a major mod like MMU or MEIOU (which mine does) should easily handle a vanilla game regardless.

Could you imagine if AoE III was only slightly better looking than the sprites used for AoE II? People would have been disappointed. There were six years between those two games, which is comparable to CKI and CKII.
 
Why do people buy a laptop and expect to be able to play all videogames anyway? That's why there are desktop computers. Laptops aren't made for games, it's just nice when they happen to be able to run some games.
 
Until the second half of the 2000s there generally wasn't much difference, and I played all state of art games on laptops until then. Even in early 2007 when I bought a 2GB Ram laptop (specs unusually high at the time), I was caught out ignorant on the limitations of the Intel GMA chipset and trapped with a $40 copy of EU3 I couldn't play. This was designed to save power (useless to me as I always had it plugged in), but I guess the market must have changed ... graphics management got more intense and it has not been profitable to make desktop market sacrifices for those with normal laptops. But, to reiterate, that is relatively new (esp. for games like this).
 
...We are discussing light-weight graphics mode(s) for users with low-end graphics cards as well, but how these mode(s) will look and what they'll include is not decided yet. I think it's fair to assume that we'll include at least one light-weight mode...

Tegus I think you just made my day. Thank you.

At the end of the day, people don't just want simpler graphics because they don't have the hardware to support better ones.
Sometimes, they want simpler graphics because they just *look* and *feel* better; A personal preference for a simpler look.
Consider maps: While 3d political maps are useful and intriguing, sometimes a 2D political map can be more *realistic*.
At the end of the day, it's about the way people like to play and about giving people the option to play in that way.
Ofcourse, knowing that more people will be able to play because of lower requirements is always nice.

EDIT:

Wow! I just finished reading the whole thread, and I didn't realize how big of a 2d vs 3d debate had just occurred.
Just to clarify, my post is not meant to ask for a 2d map. I was simply responding to Tegus.
The point is simply that sometimes a *simpler* map with less elements can look better than a *detailed* map.
Note that in both these cases the map can be 3d: just that one will have less textures/random detail than the other.

Enjoy.
 
Last edited:
Following on from my previous post, this alarmingly looks potentially worse if anything than the CK1 map, though I refrain from final comment until the I see what the provinces are called. Do the castles represent province capitals?

I share your concern regarding the province setup and I also suggested map mods like Mappa Regnorum, which I really like. (I prefer Mappa Regnorum, because Western Europe Map Mod is even more imbalanced towards the west). And to be honest I didn't really notice the imbalance you mentioned before, but I guess have a point. About the imbalance towards the west you mentioned in your earlier post, I really like that setup of Western Europe in Mappa Regnorum (which in certain areas still is a compromise), the only changes I'd like to see, if you want to balance it, are more provinces in the East. (In short (regarding Mappa Regnorum): there aren't too many provinces in the west, but too few in the east ;).)

BTW I do like how the map looks graphically.
 
Last edited:
I'd definitely support a co-opting of the Mappa Regnorum mod.