It's the first Thursday of a new month, and the stars just happen to be exactly right for a new entry in the Crusader Kings II developer diary! God willing, it will be an enlightening one. Yes, my friends, it is time to get serious and talk about religion, and, being a game about medieval times, religion obviously plays a huge part.

There are three groups of religions in CKII: Christian, Muslim and Pagan. Each group encompasses the main religions (e.g. Catholic and Orthodox) and their heresies (Waldensian, Bogomilist, etc.) Now, the specific religions have certain characteristics that set them apart from each other. For example, Catholicism has an independent chief pontiff (the Pope) who can excommunicate people and call for crusades. He can also, on rare occasions, grant a divorce or a special Casus Belli. Rulers can request excommunications, divorce or an invasion casus belli from the Pope, but it will cost them a lot of Piety, and requires that the Pope hold them in high regard.

Perhaps the most central feature of the Catholic Church, however, is the investiture of bishops. As you probably recall, fiefdoms can be held by members of the clergy (the rich and juicy Temple type baronies in particular). The income from these holdings normally goes to the Pope and not the secular liege of the bishops. However, if the Prince-Bishop happens to like his liege more than the Pope, he will instead pay taxes to his liege (and allow his troop levies to be raised.) The problem is just that the clergy naturally tends to favor the Pope, which is why kings can pass a law called Crown Investiture. This allows them to appoint new bishops who are appropriately grateful and loyal. Why not just do this all the time then? Because the Pope will be most displeased with kings who have passed this law, effectively barring them from any special Papal favors. There is a way around this problem too though: antipopes. Kings with Crown Investiture and high enough Prestige can set up a Pope of their own; an Antipope. This will ensure that all of the bishops in the kingdom pay taxes to the Crown, and will allow the king to excommunicate characters within the kingdom (but not outside it), arrange divorce, etc. Moreover, characters within the kingdom are immune to excommunication by the Pope, and foreign bishops who prefer your antipope might actually pay taxes to him (and therefore to you.) Antipopes cannot call for Crusades, however.

Another downside is that the setting up - and existence of - antipopes harms the "Moral Authority" of your religion. This value represents how respected the religion is and its general hold over the faithful. When the value is low, the chief pontiff can no longer call for Crusades, heresies start to run rampant, and characters and provinces will not convert to the religion easily. It is all a trade-off, and trade-offs are the heart and soul of good gameplay.



What about the other religions then? Well, in Orthodox Christianity the chief pontiff is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and he is vassal to the Byzantine Emperor. There is no investiture conflict (church taxes go to the secular liege) and the Patriarch cannot call for Crusades. However, he can excommunicate characters and grant CBs and divorces. Pagans have no chief pontiff at all and lack all the special mechanics. The two Muslim religions (Shi'a and Sunni) resemble Orthodoxy, but the Caliph himself is the chief pontiff, and they can call for Jihad.

That's all for now. At some point I will talk more about heresies. Until next time!



Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[TempestDK]

If I understood correctly, we will be able to play only from the christian dynasties? Technically is it possible to make muslim dynasties playable?

Probably through modding ... but the game is not designed for it, so it might result in weirdness if you try. At least that is how most of the Pagan/Muslim mods worked in CK1. You will have to hope for an expansion that concentrates on muslims/pagans

 

[VenetianPriest]

It most likely is not multiple castles per province, otherwise Brittany has been reduced to one province. What I think it means is that provinces that are in the same demesne don't show a border at all. The black borders are borders with vassals, I think.

Then again it might be possible that there will be another kind of border within the demesne but it was not done by the time of the screenshot.

This is a moderately zoomed out map shot; it is possible that we will see more detail or borders if you zoom in more. These dark borders could be duchies. Look at Normandy, I count four settlements, and CKI had four counties that made up the Duchy of Normandy. My guess is that these dark borders are the borders of duchies.

I'm fond of the political borders that are represented on the terrain map; in fact, I'm almost ready to say I could play most of the game from here instead of the political map. The borders of the Kingdoms or independent Duchies are obvious without being an eyesore. It also looks like we have an independent County of Nevers.

 

[Grubnessul]

So do we.

May I suggest the first title of the expansion to be "Istanbul was Constantinople"?

 

[Jia Xu]

If I understood correctly, we will be able to play only from the christian dynasties? Technically is it possible to make muslim dynasties playable?

No.

IIRC, the way the Muslim mods in the first game worked was Orthodox Christians were made Catholic, Muslims were made Orthodox, and the Orthodox religion was given a Muslim paint job to create the illusion that it was Islam. The game was hardcoded so that only Christians could be playable and that's something that's out of the hands of modders. The best you can hope for is a Muslim themed CK2 expansion which allows Muslims to be playable on the hardcoded level.

 

[RedRooster81]

No.

IIRC, the way the Muslim mods in the first game worked was Orthodox Christians were made Catholic, Muslims were made Orthodox, and the Orthodox religion was given a Muslim paint job to create the illusion that it was Islam. The game was hardcoded so that only Christians could be playable and that's something that's out of the hands of modders. The best you can hope for is a Muslim themed CK2 expansion which allows Muslims to be playable on the hardcoded level.

That's a good assessment. Succession laws will be a problem, as will polygamy and harems (so the family and marriage side of things). But a make-do overhaul mod might be doable in the right hands, given enough determination and creativity. But it all depends critically on what was hardcoded and what can be changed in the text files. In the end, you will likely end up with a shuffled deck of cards, but if you are determined to revive the Caliphate of Cordoba or return the Fatimids to glory or whatever you had in mind, then have at it.

 

[Duckett]

No.

IIRC, the way the Muslim mods in the first game worked was Orthodox Christians were made Catholic, Muslims were made Orthodox, and the Orthodox religion was given a Muslim paint job to create the illusion that it was Islam. The game was hardcoded so that only Christians could be playable and that's something that's out of the hands of modders. The best you can hope for is a Muslim themed CK2 expansion which allows Muslims to be playable on the hardcoded level.

Hi, I believe a developer has already stated that Islamic countries will be playable via mods in CKII and if you want to play an Islamic country in CK, there are unofficial patches for both CK and CKV that enable this with no hassle (or at least the CKV patch is hassle free, I have no experience with the other).
Sorry I don't have links, but if you are interested I'm sure this information will not be difficult to find.

 

[Barón Rojo]

Sounds interesting, but what happens with the anti-pope after some time? they keep choosing successors for ever and ever? If so, we can end the game with 10 anti-popes, don't matter how much the AI is limited to create them.

We will have cardinals?

 

[Nick B II]

If I understood correctly, we will be able to play only from the christian dynasties? Technically is it possible to make muslim dynasties playable?

In CK1 it was trivial to do so. The only reason moslems weren't playable was they didn't appear on the official playable countries list, so all you had to do was open your save-game in a text-editor and add your chosen Islamic country to the list. Or even change the entry from some other country to the one you wanted to play -- you didn't have to get the details right. So if Fatimid Egypt was on the list it was fully playable, even if the list said it was run by some Dutch chick who owned the Isle of Mann and nothing else. It was easier then changing your character's names. And just about everybody figured out how to do that.

Playable Moslems via mod may not be that easy in CK2, but they will be possible. Religion is fully moddable so a lot of possibilities exist. For example it should be possible to create a new branch of Christianity completely, and call it "Islam."

Nick

 

[Orinsul]

probably itll just be a playble=yes in the religion file.
but what would be the point? youd just be playing a moslem nation as though it was christian, as until the expansion comes itll be all the christian events, christian mechanics etc, why worry about trying to trick the computer into letting you play a pale imitation, an empty experience. Itll probably be easy to mod in, but it wont be enjoyable or any different from playing a christian country except for where you start and what your name and flag is.
Thats why its being held off for the expansion, if its worth doing its worth doing well

 

[Nuril]

probably itll just be a playble=yes in the religion file.
but what would be the point? youd just be playing a moslem nation as though it was christian, as until the expansion comes itll be all the christian events, christian mechanics etc, why worry about trying to trick the computer into letting you play a pale imitation, an empty experience. Itll probably be easy to mod in, but it wont be enjoyable or any different from playing a christian country except for where you start and what your name and flag is.

The obvious answer would be "Mods". It'll take all of 10 minutes 'til people get to writing non-Christian specific things. The second obvious thing would be "Because it isn't Christian, even if it's the same mechanics". Roleplaying matters in a character-focused game.

 

[Chamboozer]

Looks great.

Out of curiosity though, will the Muslims AI countries fight amongst themselves to grab the Caliphate title, or does that just stay with one dynasty for the entire game?

Ideally this could consist mainly of fighting over the ability to vassalize the Abbasids, after all the Caliphate did stay with them throughout the course of the game's timeframe, even after the destruction of Baghdad. The only other way to claim the Caliphate could be if the country in question is either non-Sunni or really far away, e.g. Spain or wherever else the AI conquers that's not in the Middle East/North Africa.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Well, the Fatimids had established themselves as a Caliphate just prior to the start of the game era, starting from pretty much nothing and basing their claim solely on being direct descendants of Muhammed. Though, arguably, the fact that there was no Shia Caliphate before that made it somewhat easier for them. The Abbasids based their claim to the Caliphate pretty much solely on the notion that the preceding Umayyads were immoral, corrupt and ethnocentric. Not long after the end of the game era, the Ottomans usurped the Caliphate pretty much only on the notion that as conquerors of Constantinople (which Muhammed had prophesized an Islamic army would one day do), they enjoyed divine favour and were rightful leaders of the Islamic world.

So Caliphates should certainly be a fluid thing, something a particularly prominent and successful Islamic dynasty should be able to usurp. It was pretty much coincidental that no new pretenders to the Caliphate arose in the CK2 era. Though, just prior to it the last remnant of the Umayyad Caliphate (re-established in Spain) had been extinguished, and during the era the Fatimid line went extinct (by the actions of none other than Saladin).

 

[RedRooster81]

Well, the Fatimids had established themselves as a Caliphate just prior to the start of the game era, starting from pretty much nothing and basing their claim solely on being direct descendants of Muhammed. Though, arguably, the fact that there was no Shia Caliphate before that made it somewhat easier for them. The Abbasids based their claim to the Caliphate pretty much solely on the notion that the preceding Umayyads were immoral, corrupt and ethnocentric. Not long after the end of the game era, the Ottomans usurped the Caliphate pretty much only on the notion that as conquerors of Constantinople (which Muhammed had prophesized an Islamic army would one day do), they enjoyed divine favour and were rightful leaders of the Islamic world.

So Caliphates should certainly be a fluid thing, something a particularly prominent and successful Islamic dynasty should be able to usurp. It was pretty much coincidental that no new pretenders to the Caliphate arose in the CK2 era. Though, just prior to it the last remnant of the Umayyad Caliphate (re-established in Spain) had been extinguished, and during the era the Fatimid line went extinct (by the actions of none other than Saladin).

I am hoping that these events will be kept rather fluid, and could involve Christian participation if you are neighboring a major Muslim state or you are allied with one. So pretenders could cross the border and involve Christian nobles in their plots, and vice versa. The rise of the Mamelukes to power in Egypt should be a particular event series, and if you, say, are a strong King of Jerusalem, you should be able to get involved. I think in general there should be a lot more intriguing going on, and this could be a good place for it. It should be a lot harder to conquer North Africa, but it should be possible to maintain relations with the major Muslim powers and play them off each other while keeping an eye out for an opening for your own expansion into the region, if that is what you want to do. That is precisely what Sicily attempted to do, once the Fatimid hold over Tunisia weakened.

 

[Gatkramp]

Islam would be very good for an expansion.
First I want the Christians (the Crusade Kings, if you will) to be represented as good as they can be.
I am more than happy to pay for an expansion for an Islamic nation later on... not that I really think I'd play as an Islamic country.
Just not my thing.

 

[RedRooster81]

I would be more interested in "pagans".

Well, it would be more interesting in those countries where Christians competed with Muslims or pagans. Like X-XI century Sweden, Spain before the XIV century.

 

[unmerged(109046)]

The thing I'd be interested in in different religions (non-christian ones) would be perhaps changing laws of marriage? Perhaps other religions could have special scriptable lines that allow, say, polygamy, or even same sex marriage, if you feel like making a fantasy religion. Something like, in religion file, having a parameter that says "polygamy = yes" or "number_of_wives = 4".

I doubt it would make it in, forcing every sheik and sultan and pagan count to have only one wife.

 

[ssj18vegeta]

The thing I'd be interested in in different religions (non-christian ones) would be perhaps changing laws of marriage? Perhaps other religions could have special scriptable lines that allow, say, polygamy, or even same sex marriage, if you feel like making a fantasy religion. Something like, in religion file, having a parameter that says "polygamy = yes" or "number_of_wives = 4".

I doubt it would make it in, forcing every sheik and sultan and pagan count to have only one wife.

Well.. If you'd let a Sultan have 20 wives he could have like 100 children. Won't be good for performance I guess

 

[unmerged(109046)]

Well.. If you'd let a Sultan have 20 wives he could have like 100 children. Won't be good for performance I guess

Yeah, I know, that's the argument against it, but it's really weird to see every one of them have only 1 wife. Also, the number of wives is status-related, so perhaps just polygamy = yes, and number of wives based on tier?

 

[Nick B II]

This polygamy talk is a bit premature. There won't be any polygamy in the version of the game they release in early 2012. There's talk of an expansion some time after that to do the Muslims justice, but there's no official ETA on that.

That said, there's no way a Sultan would get more wives then a Sheik. The Koran says you can have four as long as you can provide for them. Just about everybody actually represented in CK would have enough money to feed and clothe four wives, so tier-restrictions on the number of wives make little sense as anything but a tool for modders with out-there mods.

However, it's entirely possible that the expansion will include harems. And it makes sense that some podunk Sheik gets fewer Harem girls then the Caliph.

Nick

 

[Magnos III]

What happens if I, as Byzantium, make the pope become my vassal? unification of the church? if not, is there any way that would unify the Christian church?






(I use google translator since I'm not native speaker )