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Last week I told you about the College of Cardinals and the new papal powers (though I believe I forgot to mention that the Pope can also grant you claims on counties and duchies!) Today I'll go through the rest of the new Christian mechanics in Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham, as well as the new Muslim stuff. Let's start with the Holy Orders!

CKII_SoA_DD_02_Dynastic_Grandmaster.jpg

We have given each non-heretic religion in the game at least one Holy Order. This includes the various pagan religions, though most of their Holy Orders are rather fanciful. The Catholics also get two more in addition to the old ones; the Knights of Calatrava and the Knights of Santiago, both of which are mostly active in Hispania. Holy Orders are no longer activated at a certain date, many will start showing up once the Crusades/Jihads kick off (which is also more dynamic now), or when certain conditions are met. For example, the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre (an Orthodox Holy Order) becomes active if Antioch and Jerusalem are Orthodox and held by Orthodox rulers. Holy Orders are now much more active in world politics, and both their internal and external mechanics have been altered. You can now borrow money from certain Holy Orders (like the Knights Templar), or donate money for Piety. They, in turn, will make various requests (and if you owe them money, it is hard to refuse.) For example, they can ask that one of your sons join them, or that you give them the right to build a castle in an empty holding slot in one of your counties. Internally, Grandmasters are no longer randomly generated characters, but chosen from among vassals and courtiers, many of which will now be important members of European nobility. Having a Grandmaster of your dynasty will give you a monthly amount of prestige. Castle holdings under the Grandmaster are no longer hereditary, but appointed to a "Commander" for life. We have also added some minor rules and decisions, like if you happen to be the king of Jerusalem, you now have the option to vassalize the Templars and the Knights of St John. Lastly, if you think that an Order has grown too powerful in your realm, you can expel it forever, seizing its castles (a very impious act.)

CKII_SoA_DD_02_Holy_Order_Decisions.jpg

Somewhat related to the Holy Orders, you now have the ability to order any courtier to take the vows and become a monk or nun. The character will then either become a regular monk or nun (traits), or go off to join one of the martial orders. Either way, he or she will be disinherited. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to do this against characters who stand to inherit titles (like younger sons under Gavelkind); unless you imprison them first!

CKII_SoA_DD_02_Take_the_Vows.jpg

As I mentioned earlier, the Crusades will no longer necessarily kick off after a certain year; it now depends on the actual situation in Europe. For example, if Constantinople or Rome have fallen or the Moors are pushing into France. Similar conditions now apply for the Muslims. The Pagans - if they can have Great Holy Wars - will get them after the Crusades and Jihads are both active.

We have also improved on the heresies; most of them are now more distinctive and some of them even have their own heads of religion. For example, the Cathars can appoint female bishops and the Ibadi can now have their own Caliph, etc. The events that control the spread of heresies are different if you have Sons of Abraham; heresies tend to be more localized and it is also possible for minority view non-heretics among your courtiers to spread their faith (i.e. an Orthodox courtier among Catholics, etc.) Perhaps the most drastic change to heresies though, is that they can now take over as the new orthodoxy if they hold more provinces than the current mainstream form of the religion. If, say, more counties are Waldensian than Catholic, Catholicism will become the heresy and its Holy Orders will join the Waldensians. Oh, and we also decided to add "regular" religious rebels who are not trying to spread a heresy, just to gain freedom from the religious oppression of their overlords (e.g. Sunni rebels in a Catholic realm.)

Catholicism may have received the most attention in Sons of Abraham, but we have not forgotten the Muslims. They get a choice between two rival schools of theology and the conflicts that arise out of taking a stance. On one side, you have the Mu'tazili school, which espouses reason and rational thought inspired by the ancient Greek philosophers. Opposing them are the Ash'ari, who belive in the eternal, uncreated word of Allah. Historically, the Mutazilites lost out after some fairly brutal conflicts and draconian measures like the Mihna , arguably bringing to an end the Islamic Golden Age. In game terms, Mutazilites get a Learning bonus for research, whereas the Ash'ari gain Piety, and members of opposing schools tend to loathe each other.

I think that will do for now. Next week, I'll speak of pilgrimages, religious events and Judaism!
 
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You can already unite Islam in the current build: wipe the other one off the face of the map like you're supposed to.

Well, sure, but is that not the same as the Byzantine Empire conquering Catholic Europe? Why does Christianity get an event to make one branch a heresy but not Islam? Being able to make Sunni or Shia the ACTUAL heresy of the other would be very interesting to play with, especially with the new heresy-becomes-orthodox mechanic.

Just give the decision to a Muslim holder of the Arabian empire, (with every de-jure duchy) to show that you've actually re-created the grand Caliphate of yesterday. Throw in some duchies from Persia just to show you really do control all of the Muslim world.
 
I would actually like to hear more specifics about how "appointment succession" works.

Do we just nominate during the previous commander's lifetime, like for bishoprics? Or do you get a pop-up in the event of the death of the commander?

It'll probably be that the title reverts to the grandmaster on death of the holder.
 
Well, sure, but is that not the same as the Byzantine Empire conquering Catholic Europe? Why does Christianity get an event to make one branch a heresy but not Islam? Being able to make Sunni or Shia the ACTUAL heresy of the other would be very interesting to play with, especially with the new heresy-becomes-orthodox mechanic.
Ahh, I misunderstood your intention! I was only thinking of the concept of unification and mending the schism between the two denominations, not in terms of how the game mechanics declares the other denomination a heresy. In that case, yes, I fully support your suggestion, as I'm of the opinion the two should be heresies of each other in the first place.
 
Well, sure, but is that not the same as the Byzantine Empire conquering Catholic Europe? Why does Christianity get an event to make one branch a heresy but not Islam? Being able to make Sunni or Shia the ACTUAL heresy of the other would be very interesting to play with, especially with the new heresy-becomes-orthodox mechanic.

Just give the decision to a Muslim holder of the Arabian empire, (with every de-jure duchy) to show that you've actually re-created the grand Caliphate of yesterday. Throw in some duchies from Persia just to show you really do control all of the Muslim world.


Err..aren't they already heresies to each other , while catholics and christian orthodox are not or am i confusing this with a mod ? Haven't tried to play muslim for a while though.
Also suggesting a schism and a mending of this in islam as in christiandom sounds pretty..strange to me, as the reasons for the split in islam are quite/completely different and both act as standalone religions simply speaking already.
Also historically speaking i don't know of an important attempt to mend the split in islam to justify such a mechanic in the vanilla game or this DLC. Though i'm not very literate on this, rather an opinion of mine.
Adding that to SoI though would be okay in my book, just like in the LoR DLC and i'd then withdraw my arguments stated above.
 
Looks good; the features in this dev diary will probably be the main selling point for me.
 
Err..aren't they already heresies to each other , while catholics and christian orthodox are not or am i confusing this with a mod ? Haven't tried to play muslim for a while though.
Also suggesting a schism and a mending of this in islam as in christiandom sounds pretty..strange to me, as the reasons for the split in islam are quite/completely different and both act as standalone religions simply speaking already.
Also historically speaking i don't know of an important attempt to mend the split in islam to justify such a mechanic in the vanilla game or this DLC. Though i'm not very literate on this, rather an opinion of mine.
Adding that to SoI though would be okay in my book, just like in the LoR DLC and i'd then withdraw my arguments stated above.

In game they are not heresies of each other (but they can still declare holy wars on the opposite party). I'm pretty sure this was so that both Sunni and Shias could have heresies, heresies that will now have much more flavor.

Concerning the oddity of "fixing Islam", I believe it actually constitutes a schism- considering that they have differing views and dogma. And while you're right in saying that the reasons for the split are completely different, the end result is very similar: two parties who are rather distrustful of the other, and believe that their dogma is the correct dogma. So, what would be very interesting to do is simply allow for one party to win over the other. Either controlling all of the Arabian and Persian empires^1^ or controlling all of the holy sites of Islam (Cordoba, Baghdad, Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, Damascus, Al Nadjaf) would, I think, justify a Caliph saying "Islam is unified once again!"

^1^ When I say this, I mean controlling all the land in de jure Arabia AND Persia
 
Will there be an Hellenic holy orders, I know it would be ahistorical but who doesn't want a Spartan holy order?
 
No change to decadence? Come on, even just removing it the way CK2+ does would be an enormous improvement. I was so sure it was finally going to be fixed with this DLC. :(

Sorry to specifically call you out, but I don't get why you and some other players are assuming that just because decadence wasn't mentioned in this DD that it won't be changed. A reworking of decadence sounds like it would be a patch change to me, so I would think it would be in the last DD talking about the patch.
 
In game they are not heresies of each other (but they can still declare holy wars on the opposite party). I'm pretty sure this was so that both Sunni and Shias could have heresies, heresies that will now have much more flavor.

Concerning the oddity of "fixing Islam", I believe it actually constitutes a schism- considering that they have differing views and dogma. And while you're right in saying that the reasons for the split are completely different, the end result is very similar: two parties who are rather distrustful of the other, and believe that their dogma is the correct dogma. So, what would be very interesting to do is simply allow for one party to win over the other. Either controlling all of the Arabian and Persian empires^1^ or controlling all of the holy sites of Islam (Cordoba, Baghdad, Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, Damascus, Al Nadjaf) would, I think, justify a Caliph saying "Islam is unified once again!"

^1^ When I say this, I mean controlling all the land in de jure Arabia AND Persia

Thinking about it, i have to say i believe it doesnt make sense anyhow (while i understand your intention), besides it being a horrible conflict ladden topic.
Contrary to the christian schism, the split in islam affects more than "who's daddy ?" as far as i know.
Not only who the proper successor of muhammed to be, but also general interpretation of their holy book and consequences in real life for common people.

The (christian) schism is peanuts compared to that and doesnt imply as much consequences for real life as in islam me thinks.
I don't see a mending of the muslim split to be nearly as easy compared to the christian one and it has no proper precedent in history to be included in the game.

Another argument and probably most important is, that it's also a pretty bold move to even think about it.
Thats a really troubled territory/issue for islam and if i'd be a developer i wouldn't touch the idea ever, ever, ever, ever. :laugh:



PS: Regarding in-game mechanics, thanks i forgot the distinction between holy warring and being an actual heresy.
 
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What about the Order of Alcántara? I know they aren't as renowned, but they are still one of the three main knightly holy orders in Iberia at the time. I don't see why they can't be made a smaller size holy order, just for completion's sake. Pretty please? It's not too late to add one more! Three is a very good number!

Yes, three is the number to which shalt thou count before lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. Besides all the other stuff that three is a holy number in the eyes of God.
Which now makes me mod a game where I have the 'Holy Order of the Knights who Say Ni'. :D

Also, I ask again, how exactly can you, for instance vassalize Holy Orders? Only through events (as the one with being the King of Israel allows you to vassalize the Hospitalers) or can we try with the usual my dinasty, my culture, likes me a lot tri-fecta.
 
Thanks to your great Dev Diary!
By the way, I have a question concerning Theological Schools in Islam.
If you choose Mu'tazilite side, then you suffer a penalty for your Piety?
And vice versa?

I'd be surprised if there was a penalty, the Mutazilites were very pious in their own way.
 
Sorry to specifically call you out, but I don't get why you and some other players are assuming that just because decadence wasn't mentioned in this DD that it won't be changed. A reworking of decadence sounds like it would be a patch change to me, so I would think it would be in the last DD talking about the patch.

Well I hope you are right.
 
As I re-read the information about heresies taking over their parent religion, I'm realizing that I'm not certain how it works.

For example, say the Iconoclasts take over Orthodoxy. Do they keep their original names, just switching status in terms of parent/heresy? Do they maintain their existing mechanics? What happens when there's multiple heresies competing? For example, say there's 100 Orthodox provinces. 33 become Iconoclast, 33 become Nestorian. Is it just a matter of who gets to 34 first to determine which becomes the proper version, or does it require a majority of all provinces within the umbrella of the parent (in this case, 51 provinces)? Is there a cool down time?
 
As I re-read the information about heresies taking over their parent religion, I'm realizing that I'm not certain how it works.

For example, say the Iconoclasts take over Orthodoxy. Do they keep their original names, just switching status in terms of parent/heresy? Do they maintain their existing mechanics? What happens when there's multiple heresies competing? For example, say there's 100 Orthodox provinces. 33 become Iconoclast, 33 become Nestorian. Is it just a matter of who gets to 34 first to determine which becomes the proper version, or does it require a majority of all provinces within the umbrella of the parent (in this case, 51 provinces)? Is there a cool down time?

I think they said somewhere here, that you need 1 more proince than the main religion. For exemple the Orthodox have 50 provinces and you have 51. They have 20 and you 21. This is how I think it will work. And the first one take it all.