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Last week I told you about the College of Cardinals and the new papal powers (though I believe I forgot to mention that the Pope can also grant you claims on counties and duchies!) Today I'll go through the rest of the new Christian mechanics in Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham, as well as the new Muslim stuff. Let's start with the Holy Orders!

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We have given each non-heretic religion in the game at least one Holy Order. This includes the various pagan religions, though most of their Holy Orders are rather fanciful. The Catholics also get two more in addition to the old ones; the Knights of Calatrava and the Knights of Santiago, both of which are mostly active in Hispania. Holy Orders are no longer activated at a certain date, many will start showing up once the Crusades/Jihads kick off (which is also more dynamic now), or when certain conditions are met. For example, the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre (an Orthodox Holy Order) becomes active if Antioch and Jerusalem are Orthodox and held by Orthodox rulers. Holy Orders are now much more active in world politics, and both their internal and external mechanics have been altered. You can now borrow money from certain Holy Orders (like the Knights Templar), or donate money for Piety. They, in turn, will make various requests (and if you owe them money, it is hard to refuse.) For example, they can ask that one of your sons join them, or that you give them the right to build a castle in an empty holding slot in one of your counties. Internally, Grandmasters are no longer randomly generated characters, but chosen from among vassals and courtiers, many of which will now be important members of European nobility. Having a Grandmaster of your dynasty will give you a monthly amount of prestige. Castle holdings under the Grandmaster are no longer hereditary, but appointed to a "Commander" for life. We have also added some minor rules and decisions, like if you happen to be the king of Jerusalem, you now have the option to vassalize the Templars and the Knights of St John. Lastly, if you think that an Order has grown too powerful in your realm, you can expel it forever, seizing its castles (a very impious act.)

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Somewhat related to the Holy Orders, you now have the ability to order any courtier to take the vows and become a monk or nun. The character will then either become a regular monk or nun (traits), or go off to join one of the martial orders. Either way, he or she will be disinherited. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to do this against characters who stand to inherit titles (like younger sons under Gavelkind); unless you imprison them first!

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As I mentioned earlier, the Crusades will no longer necessarily kick off after a certain year; it now depends on the actual situation in Europe. For example, if Constantinople or Rome have fallen or the Moors are pushing into France. Similar conditions now apply for the Muslims. The Pagans - if they can have Great Holy Wars - will get them after the Crusades and Jihads are both active.

We have also improved on the heresies; most of them are now more distinctive and some of them even have their own heads of religion. For example, the Cathars can appoint female bishops and the Ibadi can now have their own Caliph, etc. The events that control the spread of heresies are different if you have Sons of Abraham; heresies tend to be more localized and it is also possible for minority view non-heretics among your courtiers to spread their faith (i.e. an Orthodox courtier among Catholics, etc.) Perhaps the most drastic change to heresies though, is that they can now take over as the new orthodoxy if they hold more provinces than the current mainstream form of the religion. If, say, more counties are Waldensian than Catholic, Catholicism will become the heresy and its Holy Orders will join the Waldensians. Oh, and we also decided to add "regular" religious rebels who are not trying to spread a heresy, just to gain freedom from the religious oppression of their overlords (e.g. Sunni rebels in a Catholic realm.)

Catholicism may have received the most attention in Sons of Abraham, but we have not forgotten the Muslims. They get a choice between two rival schools of theology and the conflicts that arise out of taking a stance. On one side, you have the Mu'tazili school, which espouses reason and rational thought inspired by the ancient Greek philosophers. Opposing them are the Ash'ari, who belive in the eternal, uncreated word of Allah. Historically, the Mutazilites lost out after some fairly brutal conflicts and draconian measures like the Mihna , arguably bringing to an end the Islamic Golden Age. In game terms, Mutazilites get a Learning bonus for research, whereas the Ash'ari gain Piety, and members of opposing schools tend to loathe each other.

I think that will do for now. Next week, I'll speak of pilgrimages, religious events and Judaism!
 
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Thinking about it, i have to say i believe it doesnt make sense anyhow (while i understand your intention), besides it being a horrible conflict ladden topic.
Contrary to the christian schism, the split in islam affects more than "who's daddy ?" as far as i know.
Not only who the proper successor of muhammed to be, but also general interpretation of their holy book and consequences in real life for common people.

The (christian) schism is peanuts compared to that and doesnt imply as much consequences for real life as in islam me thinks.
I don't see a mending of the muslim split to be nearly as easy compared to the christian one and it has no proper precedent in history to be included in the game.

Another argument and probably most important is, that it's also a pretty bold move to even think about it.
Thats a really troubled territory/issue for islam and if i'd be a developer i wouldn't touch the idea ever, ever, ever, ever. :laugh:

I actually think it has a lot in common with "who's daddy". Shia Islam regards the descendants of Muhammad (the Sayyid) as his successors with religious (and, technically temporal) matters, whereas Sunni Islam is much more de-centralized. I believe that this very closely mirrors the Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire. Granted, the Christian situation was that the Pope believed he was the "greater patriarch" than the others, while the Orthodox Emperors and patriarchs believed the Pope was "first among equals", but it was a fight between two powers whose dogma started out very similar, but eventually branched off to a large extent because of the split. Sunni and Shia also (appear) have many more similarities than differences (but you may be right, as I profess no professional knowledge on Islam). However, considering the fact that the game encourages alternate reality, I think it should be made as an option, whether or not it seems logical. Had the Eastern Emperor held onto Rome, Christianity would have (probably) stayed together. Similarly, had the first Caliphate stayed together Islam would have also been united.
 
If this has been answered, I apologize.

Right now, after the schism is mended, even after the map has been purged of papists, the Catholic holy orders stay Catholic. Which seems strange to me. What's left to protect. I feel like they should either convert or disband.

First of all, am I right about that? Secondly, if so, will that still be the case?

At the moment, I have united most of the map under orthodox Roman imperial rule, but the damn holy orders are still Catholic, not that I need them.
 
If this has been answered, I apologize.

Right now, after the schism is mended, even after the map has been purged of papists, the Catholic holy orders stay Catholic. Which seems strange to me. What's left to protect. I feel like they should either convert or disband.

First of all, am I right about that? Secondly, if so, will that still be the case?

At the moment, I have united most of the map under orthodox Roman imperial rule, but the damn holy orders are still Catholic, not that I need them.

They don't convert nor disband because there was still a chance for Catholicism to make a comeback.
In SoA however rules state that Holy Orders will only serve the main faith so since Catholicism becomes an Orthodox Heresy, the Holy Orders will most likely turn Orthodox (though honestly, they should stay Catholic because the Orthodox frown up on idea of Crusaders and giving them more than one Holy Order (which can be taken as protecting Holy Land so it doesn't fall again) would be pushing it IMO).
 
Thanks, Nyrael.

I hadn't considered the philosophical position of the orthodox church on the matter of crusades. Good point.

I really think that they should eventually disband. Without a supply of co-religious nobility, the orders would evaporate pretty fast. And, really, anyone zealous enough to pick up the sword in defense of the faith should be too committed to convert.

What about normal mercenary bands? They should convert for sure right? But I don't think I've seen that happen either. It's strange to see dozens of mercs with no territory that shares their religion.
 
No change to decadence? Come on, even just removing it the way CK2+ does would be an enormous improvement. I was so sure it was finally going to be fixed with this DLC. :(

If nothing else (and there may be something else), the ability to send unlanded relatives into holy orders would mean decadence would be easier to deal with.
 
I actually think it has a lot in common with "who's daddy". Shia Islam regards the descendants of Muhammad (the Sayyid) as his successors with religious (and, technically temporal) matters, whereas Sunni Islam is much more de-centralized. I believe that this very closely mirrors the Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire. Granted, the Christian situation was that the Pope believed he was the "greater patriarch" than the others, while the Orthodox Emperors and patriarchs believed the Pope was "first among equals", but it was a fight between two powers whose dogma started out very similar, but eventually branched off to a large extent because of the split. Sunni and Shia also (appear) have many more similarities than differences (but you may be right, as I profess no professional knowledge on Islam). However, considering the fact that the game encourages alternate reality, I think it should be made as an option, whether or not it seems logical. Had the Eastern Emperor held onto Rome, Christianity would have (probably) stayed together. Similarly, had the first Caliphate stayed together Islam would have also been united.
Emm...
The differences between Shia and Sunni actually a bit (well, a lot) deeper than that...
While political in its origin, the implication later on is much more similar to how Judaism and Christian split in their teaching...

Shia emphasize on Ali's importance is similar with Christian view on Jesus (especially when they claim that one of the Imam - descendent of Ali - will be the Messiah at end of time) while Sunni emphasize on Muhammad's importance make following his example become an important thing and in the end make Sunni similar to Judaism with their high reverence toward Ulama (or something similar), the equivalent of Rabbi in Judaism, because they claim only them has the knowledge of what Muhammad did and said...

This later on develop in to much-much more difference in theology (Shia is more secrecy and allow 'justified' lying known as taqqiya while Sunni become more diverse in practicing their theology due to many different school of thought - which mostly comes in to detailed of how certain practice must be done but enough to make people like those in Salafi think this variations as biddah or innovation and must be purge) and thus while they claim to be both Islam, much like Judaism and Christian where both believe Old Testament is divine in origin and Moses is a prophet (just replace it with Qur'an and Muhammad), in practice they are very-very different...
 
If the "allow female priests" heresy becomes catholic mainstream, would a female pope be called "mama"?
"Mamacy"?
"Mamal states"?
 
If the "allow female priests" heresy becomes catholic mainstream, would a female pope be called "mama"?
"Mamacy"?
"Mamal states"?

The question is... Would Cathars get popes? The problem is... After my knowledge there were absolutly against a pope. That would be like a Protestant pope.
 
I wish they would tweak the UI a bit so we can see those traits normally.
It shows how much Paradox did for this game, since I am asking for rather small details :)
 
This update reminds me that we really need an update to expand the Decisions Interface.
Tis gettin' kinda clogged.
 
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Will be interesting to see how distinctive the heresies actually are and how many events are attached to them, but it sounds promising to play the cathars for instance.

Oh my, i sense slight excitement.

I need to contain myself. ;)
 
I noticed that there was the option to expel Holy Orders at the cost of a huge hit to piety. But as soon as I saw that I thought of something: can something akin to the destruction of the Templars occur? Where the Pope outlaws a Holy Order and then you get a piety bonus for attacking them? And maybe a financial or military bonus for not doing so?
 
This update reminds me that we really need an update to expand the Decisions Interface.
Tis gettin' kinda clogged.

Yes a thousand times.