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It's Tuesday and time for another dev diary on the latest expansion for Crusader Kings II; Sons of Abraham. The topics of the day are pilgrimages, Judaism and religious events. First off though, for those who read last week's diary, we've changed how the Ash'ari and Mu'tazilite traits are handled a bit. They are now much more significant, because an Ash'ari no longer gives decadence to his dynasty, and the Learning bonus for Mutazilites is correspondingly higher (currently +5).

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Start_of_Pilgrimage.jpg

Right, so, on the subject of Islam, one thing we were quite happy with in Sword of Islam was the addition of the decision to go on the Hajj, with the little adventure and the special trait you got at the end. Naturally, a lot of people thought we should add a similar thing for Christians, so that is exactly what we have done in Sons of Abraham. Christians get to choose between several different holy places. For example, Catholics can go to Canterbury, Santiago, Cologne, Rome or Jerusalem. During the journey, a regent will be appointed for pilgrim rulers and various adventures will unfold. Going on a pilgrimage costs a bit of money, and there are of course risks, but successful pilgrims will enjoy monthly piety and respect from their brothers and sisters of the faith for the rest of their lives. There could also be some unexpected benefits...

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Pilgrim_Adventure.jpg

In the same vein, we have added tons of events dealing with religious life, for Christians especially. Some are complex event chains (for example, there is one inspired by Joan of Arc) and others are simple (e.g. monks cure your illness.) There are events about relics, immoral priests (of most religions), the crusades, etc.

However, the feature in Sons of Abraham that appears to have garnered the most attention is probably the addition of the Jewish religion. Prior to the addition of the 867 start date in The Old Gods, adding Judaism to the game seemed relatively pointless due to the lack of significant Jewish rulers. In 867 though, there is indeed a powerful Jewish state; the Turkic Khazar Khaganate, which we previously represented as being of the Tengri faith, but which was historically well into the process of converting to Judaism at the time. (I think it is plausible enough that they did this in order to counteract foreign interference justified by Muslim and Christian proselytizing. Furthermore, it can be very beneficial for an empire to have a religion of its own as a vehicle for cultural cohesion and dominance.) Now, playing as the Khazars is not easy even in 867, due mostly to their powerful and aggressive neighbors, like the Pechenegs and the Cumans, but there is also a real risk of religious internal strife. In other words, it's a worthy challenge, like playing as the Zoroastrian House of Karen.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Rabbi_at_Work.jpg

Of course, there is an even tougher challenge available, even for those who do not have The Old Gods; one last Jewish Khazar duke is still clinging on in the Saray region in 1066, vassal to the Cumans. Now, Jewish players have similar goals to strive for as the Zoroastrians; you can try to restore the ancient united kingdom of Israel and Judah, restore the High Priesthood under the Kohen Gadol, and even rebuild the Temple.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_The_Last_Khazars.jpg

Apart from the Khazar Jews, there are also the Ashkenazim and Sephardim, in the form of learned men and courtiers who can show up in your court. If you run out of money as a non-Jewish ruler, you can also choose to borrow money from Jewish merchants. If you do not want to pay them back, you can actually expel the Jews from the realm (similar to what you can do with the Holy Orders.) You will, however, stop getting the benefits of having remarkably skilled Jewish courtiers to serve in your council, and you and your descendants cannot borrow any more money from their community. Obviously, this is a pretty terrible thing to do, but it does, unfortunately, have several historical precedents.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Jewish_Decisions.jpg

I believe that about sums up the features of this little expansion. Next week I'll go through all the stuff we're giving you for free!
 
Because orthodox jews trace their ancestry maternally. Thus, according to them, you cannot become a jew, ie. convert, you have to be born as one. For them only jews that are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel and Judah are considered "truly" judaic.

So what has this , in my eyes rather racist or nationalist approach, to do in this game ? Besides that you never know if some convert had (maternally) jewish ancestors or whatnot.
Also men convert if they marry jewish women. Whats wrong with that ?
I don't see that it matters nowadays or even back then for noble people.
If you can give me some sources that show that it actually mattered, please do so.

I don't think noble jews would care.



PS: Maybe i shouldn't have opened this can of worms, but i'd really despise this idea to be in the game. Sorry.
 
So what has this , in my eyes rather racist or nationalist approach, to do in this game ? Besides that you never know if some convert had (maternally) jewish ancestors or whatnot.
Also men convert if they marry jewish women. Whats wrong with that ?
I don't see that it matters nowadays or even back then for noble people.
If you can give me some sources that show that it actually mattered, please do so.

I don't think noble jews would care.



PS: Maybe i shouldn't have opened this can of worms, but i'd really despise this idea to be in the game. Sorry.

What Einh said is the orthodox movement point of view, not the conservative / reformist point of view.

Actually to marry a couple in a jewish temple, the bride and the groom should have a certificate that assures that both are jewish born of a jewsih mother i.e the "ketubah" the marriage act of their parents.
 
So what has this , in my eyes rather racist or nationalist approach, to do in this game ? Besides that you never know if some convert had (maternally) jewish ancestors or whatnot.
Also men convert if they marry jewish women. Whats wrong with that ?
I don't see that it matters nowadays or even back then for noble people.
If you can give me some sources that show that it actually mattered, please do so.

I don't think noble jews would care.


PS: Maybe i shouldn't have opened this can of worms, but i'd really despise this idea to be in the game. Sorry.
This has nothing to do with any recent events, heck even orthodox jews today wont acknowledge the existence of the state of Israel since it can only be created when the Messiah returns. Throughout history, jews have mostly been a prosecuted and therefore migrating people. Because of this they have stuck mostly to themselves. Since the diaspora, jews have migrated through the world. The only thing they could do to keep their spirits and jewish identity was to hone their ancestry and try to keep their cultural customs intact. This is a really big deal in judaism and also the reason why jews have never been that much into proselytizing.
We cant know how noble jews would have reacted since there has never been any jewish nobles, but I doubt they would have welcomed opportunists with open arms.
 
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...but since "Must not marry an infidel" malus will not be removed (no mention about it but we will see next week), Jewish male nobles will be marrying mostly Jewish women, even Lowborns, I cannot see it as a significant problem. The sons of a convert noble will be "as Jewish as it gets" in most cases.

Plus, any other Jews, be it rabbis, other nobles or commoners, that may theoretically despise you not having 12 tribes descent, will actually be very happy to have some co-religionist in power, to interact with. "New Jew" is probably a lot more promising prospect than any Gentile. And as I said, these "New Jew" dynasties will most probably have proper matrilinear Jewish descent in a generation or two.
 
This has nothing to do with any recent events, heck even orthodox jews today wont acknowledge the state of Israel since it can only be created when the Messiah returns. Throughout history, jews have mostly been a prosecuted and therefore migrating people. Because of this they have stuck mostly to themselves. Since the diaspora, jews have migrated through the world. The only thing they could do to keep their spirits and jewish identity was to hone their ancestry and try to keep their cultural customs intact. This is a really big deal in judaism and also the reason why jews have never been that proselytizing
We cant know how noble jews would have reacted since there have never been any jewish nobles.

Well yeah, i knew about the ancestry rule there and the reasons for it in the diaspora. ;)
The sticking together and limiting conversion or marriage is nothing special to jews.

I'm pretty sure i read about converts in the middle ages and that were received welcome, though very probably depended on the region of course and especially when they were in lack of males or the community was dwindling.
Please give me one source that shows that converts weren't welcome to a degree, that they were killing them, as that is what it means in the game and that's why i asked on how to implement it.
Besides that, converts are always suspiciously watched at in most religions, well back then probably just as much. Okay that's speculation now, but you see my point regarding the game i hope.

We cant know how noble jews would have reacted since there have never been any jewish nobles.

Hmmm...the old testament, the khazars of whom at least a few might have been racially seen as proper jews (of whom we have no sufficient documents for this)
or take the ones in Spain at the courts or as an example the behaviour of the rich trader families. They might have converted themselves later to catholic, as they didn't really care.



PS:....and besides me despising this genetic rule as being racist, nationalist and dumb, it hasn't been practiced as clean and straight as such in history as people might want to believe.
Exceptions happen all the time in history, not only today. Well , basically that doesn't matter, but i don't see it comparable.


Well thats my opiniooooon. :happy:


BUt as has been mentioned by Prince Michael, we won't get many converts anyway, unless caused by the player and all the fuss isn't worth a penny.:rolleyes:
Sorry, my emotions. Tztztz...
 
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I was hoping for there to be a special mechanic for those seen as true descendents of the Tribes of Israel (similar to Sayyid's and descendants of the Sayoshant).

If I were to play a dynasty that converted to Judaism they would be seen as a non-authentic by other Jews within the game and would therefore have a negative modifier.

I'm thinking Kohanim could work then. They are considered to be descendants of Ahron, brother of Moses, if I'm not mistaken.
 
Well yeah, i knew about the ancestry rule there and the reasons for it in the diaspora. ;)
The sticking together and limiting conversion or marriage is nothing special to jews.

I'm pretty sure i read about converts in the middle ages and that were received welcome, though very probably depended on the region of course and especially when they were in lack of males or the community was dwindling.
Please give me one source that shows that converts weren't welcome to a degree, that they were killing them, as that is what it means in the game and that's why i asked on how to implement it.
Besides that, converts are always suspiciously watched at in most religions, well back then probably just as much. Okay that's speculation now, but you see my point regarding the game i hope.



Hmmm...the old testament, the khazars of whom at least a few might have been racially seen as proper jews (of whom we have no sufficient documents for this)
or take the ones in Spain at the courts or as an example the behaviour of the rich trader families. They might have converted themselves later to catholic, as they didn't really care.

I never said anything about killing, just give them minus in relation thats all. And no I cant give you any sources because we are looking at a purely hypothetical scenario here. How jewish landholders (nobles) of ancient jewish descent would have reacted to jewish convertites holding power in a jewish state during the Middle Ages.
 
I never said anything about killing, just give them minus in relation thats all.

But thats what happens in game.
 
Will there be flavour events unique to each pilgrimage site?

It would be awesome to go to Canterbury and tag along with a group of people you meet at an inn and perhaps either get Scholar or Poet for telling stories along the way. Perhaps inviting a Knight or a Priest to join your court?

Visiting the Magi of Cologne perhaps leads you to develop an intense interest in them and gain an interest in the stars and become a Mystic, if you have high Learning.

I am unsure about what kind of events could fit Santiago, there are probably far too many to choose from for Rome and Jerusalem.
 
" You will, however, stop getting the benefits of having remarkably skilled Jewish courtiers to serve in your council, and you and your descendants cannot borrow any more money from their community. Obviously, this is a pretty terrible thing to do, but it does, unfortunately,"

please don't tell me you'll change the RNG to make Jews more likely to have better stats..
 
Wow this got alot of pages fast
Was any more said about the event chains?

It'd be awesome if there were many for common exceptions [Conflict Bishop v King over jurisdiction, sons running away to be monks, etc] as they only list a one-off thing and im hoping above hope that there'll be lots of interesting things of the happen often variety.
 
Expelling Jews shouldn't be a permanent thing. There was plenty of cases of them being expelled then allowed back several years later (and then expelled again even later). I'd say having them banned from your realm should grant a bonus to piety at the cost of losing high-stewardship Jewish courtiers and loans.
 

Now I understand.

What I do not understand is why you put the Catalonian wiki. :huh:

PS: Based on what the wiki says:

The "relics of the Magi" were originally situated at Constantinople, but brought to Milan by Eustorgius I, the city's bishop, in 344. The relics of the Magi were taken from Milan by Holy Roman Emperor Fredrick Barbarossa and given to the Archbishop of Cologne, Rainald of Dassel in 1164. The Three Kings have since attracted a constant stream of pilgrims to Cologne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine_of_the_Three_Kings

That means that in any bookmark before 1164 Cologne should be no holy site, but Milan.
 
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So based on the screenshot, Khazars of 869 now receive free event troops? Hopefully this will not tilt the balance too much in their favor though. Admittedly AI Khazaria usually vanishes within few years so free troops might come in handy retaining control of Alania and Azov but hopefully they are kept within reason so that even AI Khazaria does not blob the crap out of the steppes by annihilating Pechenegs and Cumans.
 
So based on the screenshot, Khazars of 869 now receive free event troops? Hopefully this will not tilt the balance too much in their favor though. Admittedly AI Khazaria usually vanishes within few years so free troops might come in handy retaining control of Alania and Azov but hopefully they are kept within reason so that even AI Khazaria does not blob the crap out of the steppes by annihilating Pechenegs and Cumans.

Which screenshot ? I don't see any, but the 2400 troops in one pic and that is not really scary. Though..i haven't played in 867 yet regularly, so don't know about numbers in that region specifically.


Btw, is the dropdown alarm symbol (three people) on the very right in picture 2 new or have i forgot about it ?