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It's Tuesday and time for another dev diary on the latest expansion for Crusader Kings II; Sons of Abraham. The topics of the day are pilgrimages, Judaism and religious events. First off though, for those who read last week's diary, we've changed how the Ash'ari and Mu'tazilite traits are handled a bit. They are now much more significant, because an Ash'ari no longer gives decadence to his dynasty, and the Learning bonus for Mutazilites is correspondingly higher (currently +5).

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Start_of_Pilgrimage.jpg

Right, so, on the subject of Islam, one thing we were quite happy with in Sword of Islam was the addition of the decision to go on the Hajj, with the little adventure and the special trait you got at the end. Naturally, a lot of people thought we should add a similar thing for Christians, so that is exactly what we have done in Sons of Abraham. Christians get to choose between several different holy places. For example, Catholics can go to Canterbury, Santiago, Cologne, Rome or Jerusalem. During the journey, a regent will be appointed for pilgrim rulers and various adventures will unfold. Going on a pilgrimage costs a bit of money, and there are of course risks, but successful pilgrims will enjoy monthly piety and respect from their brothers and sisters of the faith for the rest of their lives. There could also be some unexpected benefits...

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Pilgrim_Adventure.jpg

In the same vein, we have added tons of events dealing with religious life, for Christians especially. Some are complex event chains (for example, there is one inspired by Joan of Arc) and others are simple (e.g. monks cure your illness.) There are events about relics, immoral priests (of most religions), the crusades, etc.

However, the feature in Sons of Abraham that appears to have garnered the most attention is probably the addition of the Jewish religion. Prior to the addition of the 867 start date in The Old Gods, adding Judaism to the game seemed relatively pointless due to the lack of significant Jewish rulers. In 867 though, there is indeed a powerful Jewish state; the Turkic Khazar Khaganate, which we previously represented as being of the Tengri faith, but which was historically well into the process of converting to Judaism at the time. (I think it is plausible enough that they did this in order to counteract foreign interference justified by Muslim and Christian proselytizing. Furthermore, it can be very beneficial for an empire to have a religion of its own as a vehicle for cultural cohesion and dominance.) Now, playing as the Khazars is not easy even in 867, due mostly to their powerful and aggressive neighbors, like the Pechenegs and the Cumans, but there is also a real risk of religious internal strife. In other words, it's a worthy challenge, like playing as the Zoroastrian House of Karen.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Rabbi_at_Work.jpg

Of course, there is an even tougher challenge available, even for those who do not have The Old Gods; one last Jewish Khazar duke is still clinging on in the Saray region in 1066, vassal to the Cumans. Now, Jewish players have similar goals to strive for as the Zoroastrians; you can try to restore the ancient united kingdom of Israel and Judah, restore the High Priesthood under the Kohen Gadol, and even rebuild the Temple.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_The_Last_Khazars.jpg

Apart from the Khazar Jews, there are also the Ashkenazim and Sephardim, in the form of learned men and courtiers who can show up in your court. If you run out of money as a non-Jewish ruler, you can also choose to borrow money from Jewish merchants. If you do not want to pay them back, you can actually expel the Jews from the realm (similar to what you can do with the Holy Orders.) You will, however, stop getting the benefits of having remarkably skilled Jewish courtiers to serve in your council, and you and your descendants cannot borrow any more money from their community. Obviously, this is a pretty terrible thing to do, but it does, unfortunately, have several historical precedents.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Jewish_Decisions.jpg

I believe that about sums up the features of this little expansion. Next week I'll go through all the stuff we're giving you for free!
 
If we use such strict guidelines, then Canterbury shouldn't be a holy site before 1170.

It always had Pilgrims, the whole way back to Augustine both for history and its important in the ecclesiastical power structure, Thomas just turned it from a minor site to the main site in Britain.

CK2 has a more pressing reason though, its one of the holy sites that the mere holding of it increasing christian confidence throughout the whole of europe! So presumably Pilgrims in CK2 head to Canterbury not for any of the reasons pilgrims in our world did but to visit one of the sources of moral authority.
 
It's such a pity the game will cheerily give you IMBECILES for random courtiers so it clearly doesn't follow that reasoning in general.

This is because the reasoning is not applicable in general. If you belong to the ruling class you can get to court as an absolute imbecile. The retarded son of a Duke has a place in court, just as a retarded princess will probably still get married. Your court is not - or should not be, at least - full of commoners, but rather full of noblemen.

The point is this: A retarded princess would never make it as a ruling queen - because if she is not clever (as by stipulation she is not) the male claimants of the throne will quickly use her status of being a woman to usurp the throne.
It is the same for Jews. If you are the son of a nobleman, you can be an imbecile and still make it to court. But, if you are a commoner, and even worse, a heathen and member of a discriminated minority, you only make it to court, if you have something to offer the ruler - namely skills (or money).

A very crude summary would state the following. There are two ways to get into court:

1) Be born into the ruling class
2) Have something special to offer

Since 1) is unavailable for Jews (except in Khazaria, I join one of the previous posters in hoping that Khazaria isn't full of Jewish geniuses) it follows that the Jews admitted to court must have something to offer - his skills.
 
The point is this: A retarded princess would never make it as a ruling queen - because if she is not clever (as by stipulation she is not) the male claimants of the throne will quickly use her status of being a woman to usurp the throne.

That isn't actually true. The Empress Zoe, for instance, was pretty much a pretty face and not much else. Of course, there weren't any male claimants left of the House of Makedon at that point, but a sitting Emperor was overthrown to put her (and Theodora!) on it. Nor is Zoe the only historical woman of extremely limited talents to end up on a throne due to circumstances.
 
Same reasons Queens were so often great rulers. Not because women are smarter than men, but because if you weren't a cunning or talented women, you would never make it to the throne in the Middle Ages, thus there is a natural sorting process, eliminating the talentless women of royal blood. Just think of all the shenanigans for instance, Catherine The Great or Margrethe I of Denmark had to pull in order to stay in power.

As for Jews - To actually make it into a royal (ducal / countal (?)) court, as a member of a discriminated minority you have to be smart. In other words, the obstacle of being a Jew in medieval Europe makes sure that only the talented Jews make it that far.

Tell that to my younger of two daughters on my last game who plotted to kill her eldest sister (and it worked) and she was slow, and she went to history as Empress Jimena I, 'the Pious' unifier of the Iberian Peninsula...
 
Monarchs arent so important, especially if theyre stupid. As long as theyre not stupid enough to think their cunning then all a stupid monarch means is the realm will be in the good hands of ambitious and probably actually cunning councillors.
CK2 doesnt really work that way though so its a concern here, but as its stupid female rulers as an allegory for socially rising aliens its a point. As a Chancellor you'd want a stupid king, as CK2 proves theyre just the christian localisation of Grand Viziers, who of course, cant be trusted.
 
Same reasons Queens were so often great rulers. Not because women are smarter than men, but because if you weren't a cunning or talented women, you would never make it to the throne in the Middle Ages, thus there is a natural sorting process, eliminating the talentless women of royal blood. Just think of all the shenanigans for instance, Catherine The Great or Margrethe I of Denmark had to pull in order to stay in power.

As for Jews - To actually make it into a royal (ducal / countal (?)) court, as a member of a discriminated minority you have to be smart. In other words, the obstacle of being a Jew in medieval Europe makes sure that only the talented Jews make it that far.

I think the basis is that Jews in the CK2 period were well known for being well educated, due to a long cultural legacy of literacy and education and due to not neglecting ancient texts that Catholics tended to view with suspicion at best. Jewish learning was less noted in the Catholic world after the 1200's, because the church had started to encourage studies of ancient philosophies in response to the Cathar heretics among others. Conversely, Jews were generally not seen as anything special scholarly speaking in the Muslim world until the Islamic Golden Age was coming to an end and Muslim interest in advanced scholarship declined. I'm aware of the Greeks ever regarding the Jews as especially learned, probably because the Greeks never really lost interest in classical scholarship.
 
In short, there's nothing wrong with that image - it should remain. At most it should be "zoomed out" a little to show a larger portion of the temple mount, which presumably would be totally cleared by the King of Israel in preparation for the third temple.
I can think of no reasonable precedence and your suggestion is counter-intuitive anyway. You don't show a picture of where the "Great Wall of China" was located if your offering the option to build it in an interface. You would show a picture of the wall.

Implicit in it is the assertion that it would be torn down in preparation for a new temple, which is in fact more offensive to Muslims and Christians.

I'm a Christian, so needless to say that statement is at best over-generalized. I consider the claim that it's offensive to Christians altogether faulty.

And "incredibly insulting"... It's just a 24 by 20 pixels picture of a temple, calm down.

Many believe the Temple Mount to be the Holiest place on earth. To me it's not an argument. I'm confident most religious people would be upset if their Holy places or symbols were represented by something antipodal to their beliefs.

Wow, guys, really? I think saying it's "Incredibly insulting" is pretty steep hyperbole. I would even say "Mildly Insulting" is pushing it. Maybe simply "inaccurate" or "inappropriate" would work. It's a bit sickening how everyone looks forward to being able to be righteously outraged, and always on the lookout for the opportunity. It's a stretch.

Obviously, people with different world views have different perspectives of what's offensive to them.
 
we can only expel jews? how about thrownig them all to dungeon and let them rot and die there? or realm sized persecution????

Judging by your posting history, you sure don't need a guiding hand to help you persecuting them or giving new means to be nasty to people. The game already several means to be evil against people you don't like. Expelling Jews and possibly events about pogroms (over 300 new religions-related events have probably some that would relate this) are there to give dark realism without need to please the darker elements of the player base.
 
Glad to hear that we aren't forced to keep the Jews around. In my game, Christianity and Islam have been finally extinguished.
Now, why would I leave people from the religion that spawned those two monstrosities in my court? Some new messiah may pop up and then we have a new threat.
It would be cool if the Jews could be converted instead of only exiled or kept around.

My worry is that vassals or vassal states will keep the Jews though. So I hope it's possible to make a realm-wide expulsion.

And regarding insulting, it's an alternate history game. I mean Muslims insulted the Jews when they tore down their temple in the first place. The Jews can do the same in this reality.
I tore down the Kabullah, removed Mohammad's grave in Mecca, Tore down their Mosque in Jerusalem, removed St.Peter from Rome, and tore down the Cathedral and built a temple. Some Christians or Muslims may be offended, well tough shit. In this world their religions failed.

When dealing with alternate history you should not pander to faiths. I am pretty sure Native Americans, Zoroastrians, Hellenics and Norse are pretty offended at seeing their faiths destroyed by Christians and Muslims in many many games, and in many occasions. It's only fair to have the same happen to the Abrahamics if they fail.
 
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That didn't really happen.

Ah my bad...Tore down the ruins. Well it still offended some of them that another faith tore down the last remnants of their holy site and built a Mosque.
To this day, some Israelites want to tear down the Mosque to build a temple.
 
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Well, one thing about Jewish courtiers is that, unlike Christians and Muslims (though Muslims tried), the Jewish population was widely educated. Christianity didn't develop a secular educational tradition until much later, and Islam had a Golden Age, but that kind of withered. Jews provided the only really educated secular class, which is how they came to dominate the administration of the Muslim states.

I do think Jews should qualify for an increase to Learning that's as high as the Mu'tazilites get, because I don't like the idea of any other religion having a learning bonus better than the Jews get. :p
 
Judging by your posting history, you sure don't need a guiding hand to help you persecuting them or giving new means to be nasty to people. The game already several means to be evil against people you don't like. Expelling Jews and possibly events about pogroms (over 300 new religions-related events have probably some that would relate this) are there to give dark realism without need to please the darker elements of the player base.

yeah well, Im just looking for some mods/devs confirmation for any that kind of event.
 
yeah well, Im just looking for some mods/devs confirmation for any that kind of event.

I think what he was saying is that a large percentage of your recent posts have been alarmingly anti-Semitic. For your confirmation, you could have read the Dev Diary:

Apart from the Khazar Jews, there are also the Ashkenazim and Sephardim, in the form of learned men and courtiers who can show up in your court. If you run out of money as a non-Jewish ruler, you can also choose to borrow money from Jewish merchants. If you do not want to pay them back, you can actually expel the Jews from the realm (similar to what you can do with the Holy Orders.) You will, however, stop getting the benefits of having remarkably skilled Jewish courtiers to serve in your council, and you and your descendants cannot borrow any more money from their community. Obviously, this is a pretty terrible thing to do, but it does, unfortunately, have several historical precedents.
 
In the case of talented Jewish courtiers, what's stopping someone from appointing them to their council and then demanding to their conversion to avoid the opinion malus? Cause its trivially easy to make a courtier convert, unless they are Zealous.