• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
It's time for another cycle of developer diaries on Crusader Kings II and I thought I'd begin by talking about the new start date and giving you a broad overview of the upcoming expansion; The Old Gods. Yes, we're pushing back the earliest possible start date to 867 AD. This is a special bookmark that comes with the expansion (and you will not be able to start at dates between 867 and 1066 without modding.)

Europe is a very different place in 867... Many of the familiar countries have not yet come into being. There is no Hungary, no Poland, no Russian principalities and the British Isles and Scandinavia are full of petty kingdoms. The Carolingians still rule the Franks, but the great Empire of Charlemagne has been divided between four of his descendants. In the Byzantine Empire, a new dynasty has just risen - the House of Makedon - destined to restore some of its former glory. The Muslims are in the middle of a drawn-out crisis as the once enormous Abbasid Caliphate has fractured, with a succession of Caliphs being murdered by their own Turkish generals.

CKII_ToG_DD_01_Europe_867.png

Most importantly, however, the North and East are completely dominated by bustling tribes of unrepentant heathens who remain less than impressed with the White Christ. Why debase yourself before a dead man on a cross when you can loot the riches of his fat clergy instead? Just as the fury of the Northmen descends on the undefended shores of Europe, other, equally pagan threats are on the rise in the steppes of Tartaria. Like the Avars before them, the feared Magyar horse lords are pushing into Europe from beyond the Carpathians. Why is all this more important than the affairs of Christians and Muslims? Because with The Old Gods, all these heathens are finally playable! (But you probably knew that already. :D )

CKII_ToG_DD_01_Magyar_Invasion.png

Playing a pagan chieftain is at least as different as playing a Muslim. Not only that, there are significant differences between the various heathen religions. Some are aggressive in nature, like the Norse and Tengri beliefs, and some are more defensive, like the Finno-Ugric faith. For example, the warlike Norse will suffer a prestige loss for being at peace for too long, and will need to wage war or set sail to pillage and loot. The Finns don't have this problem, but on the other hand, their vassals will dislike having their troops raised (like Christians). Some faiths get defensive bonuses and larger garrisons in their homelands, some don't, etc. However, they can all potentially be reformed to withstand the allure of the new religions.

CKII_ToG_DD_01_The_Great_Heathen_Army.png

In the coming weeks, I will explain the different religions in detail. I will, of course, also talk about other new features, like traversible rivers, new cultures, Zoroastrians, Adventurers, and much more. Stay tuned, and here are some more screenshots to tease and titillate!

CKII_ToG_DD_01_Loot_and_Pillage.pngCKII_ToG_DD_01_Varangians.pngCKII_ToG_DD_01_The_Last_Zoroastrians.png



[video=youtube;V-edUnWQgyM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-edUnWQgyM[/video]

Web page: http://www.crusaderkings.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/Crusaderkings
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Crusaderkings
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Will the events leading to degradation of Western Franks empire to Kingdom of France be dependent on player to some degree (i.e. making it possible - through some decisions - to hold this title, albeit with some difficulty) or entirely independent?

And if it's independent, then what of Aquitaine? If I see properly, it's king tier in 867. Does that mean that degrading empire will lose its jurisdiction over Aquitaine or it'll just degrade to duchy?
 
Careful, threads were closed before when it was barely suggested that the developers "may have been" biased :) Of course, one would argue, a dev diary thread is a better thread to debate them about their Norse bias, since it is unlikely that it would be closed.

I do agree though that using Norse names and enlarging Kiev and Novgorod's domains is not historical. I have less of a problem with the latter than with the former. The truth is, despite all the theories, this is a rather obscure time in Russian history. One has to view Rurik on the same level as Romul and Merovech. And since the time is obscure, well... everything goes. If we had Russian developers making this game, you would see a slightly different map of E. Europe, but the difference would be in minor details.

It's all an evil Western conspiracy against Holy Russia, I tell ye :)


Would love to hear developer's thoughts on what these two entities are supposed to represent in history. Maybe we can help you guys out to put more proper names on them? (e.g. Bryansk = Severians, Tvr = Vyatichi?)

You've been missing all the party, it seems ;)

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?664171-Slavonic-Gods

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-the-Slavic-Tribes-for-quot-The-Old-Gods-quot
 
Looks great. I disagree with a few thing on the map, but i understand the choice you made.

As for Caucasian check your fact before talking about this kind of topic people. Its often used to describe white but it's a mistake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race
 
Ok, most of Eastern Europe is really wrong in this screen shot..

maybe they're trying to balance out the early game a little or something. For playtesting purposes at least. I'm a fan of historical rigorousness also.
 
maybe they're trying to balance out the early game a little or something. For playtesting purposes at least. I'm a fan of historical rigorousness also.

I think they've just not got around to it. You can see Cumania poking out at the edge as well as the same Romuva/Suomensuko tribes as usual. I'd hazard a guess that they're just not got to it.
 
maybe they where more Caucasian first and then the mongols doing their hordey thing changed this?

No it was actually my mistake.

Araboids are a subgroup of Caucasoid and have always been, and so are most of the population groups south and west of the Himalayas. It seems that you are confusing Caucasoid with Aryan, which is a term covering the light-skinned Caucasoid subgroups.

I am sorry, you are right. My point still stands tho, persians are not arabs. It would be like having a norwegian and someone from Spain look exactly alike. Or a russian and an italic. To be more correct, a balt or a borreby look like an atlanto-med or a gracile-med.
I was confused, yes.
 
Also, what Hibernian said.

I disagree with some things on his map, particularily the Wendish parts, Galicia and Moscow area, but it's qazillion times better than the current setup. Of course, the devs had to give up some historical accuracy in favour of the balance issue, but some outright ridiculousness coulda been fixed nevertheless.

More accurate Eastern Europe in the 9th century (sorry, only in Russian):

rus9.gif



As for the Wendish lands, it's not entirely clear from the screenshot

attachment.php


But they got Pomeralia where Pomerania should be, and only got "Mecklenburg" (which didn't exist yet) one province, when in fact those lands belonged to Slavic Obodrites and those were quite numerous, occupuying also what is "Pomerania" on this screenie. Also there's some unspecified "Brandenburg", which I don't know what is supposed to represent. Historically it was part Obodrites, part Veletians, part Lusatians territory.
 
Regarding Brittany, Salomon styles himself a king, but it's a "Petty", or Duke-tier kingdom. We've put the viking Hastein in Nantes at the start with a large force. A very challenging position for a player. Mortain should perhaps be given to Salomon.
Thanks for the reply. Giving Nantes to Hastein is a good choice in my opinion... And I think he will be my first choice to play with when The Old Gods will be released :)

(And yes I think Salomon should have Mortrain)
 
Why not call Burgundy Lotharingia? France has become Francia.
 
So yeah, after this I'm having a hard time playing CKII. BUT, it won't be until May, so yeah. Guess I'll dig deep and see if my awesome Frisian game can keep me occupied.



And man, I'm gonna play a lot of different Pagans after this. Muslim and Christian games might be on the backburner all summer. Various Old Norse rulers in 867, Pommeranians, Lettigallians, Bjarmia, a return to House Gren in 1066... it'll be almost better than sex.
 
Why not call Burgundy Lotharingia? France has become Francia.

If I were a gambling man, I'd wager that they're kings of both, and the culture of the ruler makes them pick Burgundy as the primary title. So they're probably Frankish or Occitan, and not German.

You can see the same thing happen now. Recently, I had Normans unite the crowns of Sicily and England (Norman England won a Crusade for Sicily, and still hadn't started to turn English). The result was them calling themselves Sicily, which made for a very unique pale green blob up in England.
 
Why in the name of old Baltic gods would Lithuania even have double cross as CoA? Or Samogitia having some deer?
More seriously, Lithuania got double cross only from Jagielon dynasty in some XVI century, then the Grand duke Jogaila married Polish queen he chose double cross, as his CoA, witch means baptism/christening. Columns of Gediminas would be more appropriate or some knight with it (Vytis/Pogon Litewska), but double cross no way makes any sense for pagan country.
And whats with Samogitian deer? Never ever I heard or read about such thing in their history, it always was a bear. It is said that Samogitians never used flags, instead they all wore pelt of a bear or bear heads to distinguish themselves from others. But at least it is no longer called Zhmud thats a progress.
 
Why does everyone think this map is final build? Other than England and the pagan areas, it's pretty clear they haven't dealt with the rest yet. Everyone needs to calm the hell down.
 
If I were a gambling man, I'd wager that they're kings of both, and the culture of the ruler makes them pick Burgundy as the primary title. So they're probably Frankish or Occitan, and not German.

You can see the same thing happen now. Recently, I had Normans unite the crowns of Sicily and England (Norman England won a Crusade for Sicily, and still hadn't started to turn English). The result was them calling themselves Sicily, which made for a very unique pale green blob up in England.

Why having them start as Emperors, though? They were not - and the "regnal numbers must be kept" does not work, because the Italian emperors (Louis II and III) were in. Ludwig the German was King of Germany, but not Roman Emperor. The problem would be having the crown go around, maybe? It is possible, but something could be thought.
 
But they got Pomeralia where Pomerania should be, and only got "Mecklenburg" (which didn't exist yet) one province, when in fact those lands belonged to Slavic Obodrites and those were quite numerous, occupuying also what is "Pomerania" on this screenie. Also there's some unspecified "Brandenburg", which I don't know what is supposed to represent. Historically it was part Obodrites, part Veletians, part Lusatians territory.
The pagan states are called by the name of the de-jure duchies because that's what they are. It does not look like they are going to introduce an alternate naming system for the Slavic pagans (where Mecklenburg => Obodrites, Brandenburg => Lusatians etc) or special titular duchy level titles like they did in CK1 (where Curonians, Wends etc were landless duchy titles held by the pagans at the 1066 start)
 
Why having them start as Emperors, though? They were not - and the "regnal numbers must be kept" does not work, because the Italian emperors (Louis II and III) were in. Ludwig the German was King of Germany, but not Roman Emperor. The problem would be having the crown go around, maybe? It is possible, but something could be thought.
Allowing the imperial title to go around between different monarchies would indeed be the better solution. It would also allow the implementation of of translatio imperii for post-1066 starts, which would make sense since it was the pope who made emperors and nothing says he couldn't one day crown an Italian king tell the German kings to go screw themselves. Would likely be a lot of implementation work for the devs, though.
 
The problem would be having the crown go around, maybe? It is possible, but something could be thought.

If the emperor title used another type of succession like e.g. seniority (not accurate, but whatever) it would quickly unify all the pieces of the empire, since it would take the vassals with it.
 
Allowing the imperial title to go around between different monarchies would indeed be the better solution. It would also allow the implementation of of translatio imperii for post-1066 starts, which would make sense since it was the pope who made emperors and nothing says he couldn't one day crown an Italian king tell the German kings to go screw themselves. Would likely be a lot of implementation work for the devs, though.

It would be interesting to reach 1066 with the Big Grey Blob being an Holy Roman Empire of the Italian/Frankish Nation, though - translatio imperii would indeed be the best choice. Dissolving the Empire at the monarch death and having a decision, requiring a claim, high prestige and excellent relations with the Pope to be crowned yet again? Or it could be part of the on-act event itself, to avoid vassal kings going wild...if you can keep the crown, of course.
 
Why does everyone think this map is final build? Other than England and the pagan areas, it's pretty clear they haven't dealt with the rest yet. Everyone needs to calm the hell down.

Since people do not know which aspects of the map are final and which are not isn't it a good idea to just give Paradox your feedback early so they can take it into account if they wish? If I was Paradox I would love seeing all the interested users
 
Since people do not know which aspects of the map are final and which are not isn't it a good idea to just give Paradox your feedback early so they can take it into account if they wish? If I was Paradox I would love seeing all the interested users

I fully agree with you. And many people have been giving their opinions very thoughtfully and in very well-explained posts, which I think is very useful. But also some had a reaction similar to "OMG, what a crappy map! You PI devs really don´t know s*** about history!!", which isn´t very nice, actually...

Edit: Regarding the DD, I think it looks great! Been playing other stuff lately, but I will return to CK2 eventually, and tOG seems to be a must!
 
Last edited: