The arduous duty great privilege of writing this week's Dev Diary has fallen to me, and in a desperate but vain attempt to fill Doomdark's shoes, I am here to talk a bit about the various options that are open to pagans when waging war.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_03_Prepared_Invasion.jpg

Prepared Invasions
Norse Pagans, or Vikings as they are known to the common man, have the unique ability to launch Prepared Invasions against non-pagans. This undertaking can only be done by small to middling Viking realms, and the target of your invasion can't be too small or too big (it needs to have between 9 and 40 holdings).

The way this works is that you declare your intention to invade a particular realm. This will cost you a lot of prestige (which can be gained through looting, as explained in the previous Dev Diary), and you'll have two years to prepare before going to war. During this time warriors from across the Norse lands will flock to your banner, hungry for loot and plunder. Needless to say, if you fail to declare war before these two years are up, you will lose face.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_03_King_Ambition.jpg

Subjugation
Pagans won't shy away from fighting each other, and all pagan rulers may make use of the new Subjugation casus belli. This lets them attack other pagans within a specified target kingdom, but it can only be used every ten years unless your ruler has the new ”Become King” ambition. If you are the victor of a Subjugation war, you will vassalize all lords within the target kingdom.

Pagan Conquest
Pagans can always declare war for control over a single neighboring county, and in addition to this, Norse Pagans may also go to war for any coastal county.

Tribal Invasion
This casus belli can only be used by independent Altaic (Turkish and Mongol) and Magyar pagan rulers, and it targets entire kingdoms in what amounts to massive horde invasions. You may have been on the receiving end of these before, but now you'll finally get a chance to unleash them yourself as you ride in from the steppes to carve out an empire.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_03_Peace_Too_Long.jpg


And finally, a few more items that have a significant impact on pagans and how they wage war:
Non-pagans suffer from a significantly smaller supply limit when in pagan territory, which limits their ability to march massive armies towards the heathen homelands at the start of the game. This penalty will eventually be removed as you progress through the Military Organization technologies.

As was touched upon in the last Dev Diary, Norse and Tengri pagans lose prestige if they have been at peace for too long. The Suomenusko, Romuva and Slavic pagans are less focused on offensive warfare and do not have this penalty. In addition, their warriors enjoy several defensive bonuses, especially when fighting in provinces with their own religion.

That's all for now!

 

[Meneth]

He's talking about the Khazar Jews. And about them, Paradox has already said no to it. For one, it's too much content to add in a new religion, for two, it's controversial.

You can murder children. I don't see how including Jews, which historically had a very important role in banking and other areas of trade, is more controversial than that.
And I think most people would be happy having Jews represented via events and possibly some courtiers. Plenty of mods have done similar, so it clearly isn't that much work.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

Non-pagans suffer from a significantly smaller supply limit when in pagan territory, which limits their ability to march massive armies towards the heathen homelands at the start of the game. This penalty will eventually be removed as you progress through the Military Organization technologies.

Will these supply limits affect the gameplay in the standard timeline of the game? Because I've noticed that the Baltic Pagans are getting gobbled up pretty fast in the XIth century, without the need for Holy Orders or the opportunity to convert and marry (like was the case with Lithuania).

Also, as time goes by will there be mechanics incentivising the conquered pagan lands (especially those coastal Norse lands) to change culture or be forced out, or will the Norse origins of the Rurikovitch mean that suddenly everything in the east becomes Norse?

 

[Comradebot]

There are jews in CK2? i know there are some mods which enable this but I dont remember the vanilla version having them (apart from money lending event chains)

There are not.

In the Paradox universe, Judaism didn't exist until 1836.

 

[tormos]

You can murder children. I don't see how including Jews, which historically had a very important role in banking and other areas of trade, is more controversial than that.

Gee, I can't think of anything controversial that happened with Jews in the middle ages except, you know, pogroms? And the odd crusade kicking off by burning down the local Jewish residences (conveniently located in the nearby ghetto)? Basically the whole thing is a can of worms of a size that Paradox (rightly) is quite cautious about opening.

In terms of the DLC itself I have to say that i'm somewhat worried that the game is going to become much easier with an early start date, since if you can get a stable dynasty and your first kingdom/empire up and running early in the first century of play there is now MUCH longer to worry about HRE etc before those pesky Mongols show up and try to rain on your parade. Hopefully Paradox has the balance right so that pagans are a sufficient threat to Catholic rulers to prevent killer blobbing in the longer timeframe.
QUICK EDIT BECAUSE IT'S LATE AND HISTORY IS HARD
I realize that "pogroms" as a concept were not invented in the Middle ages but the phenomenon existed (both among Catholics and Muslims)at the time, with recorded outbreaks of largescale anti-Jewish violence starting in the late 11th century at the beginning of the First Crusade of 1096.

 

[c01mhth10ch]

I would like to know more about Tribal Invasion feature mentioned. How will that play out, are those invasions still going to include enormous stacks that don't suffer attrition (the Mongols)?

 

[smeggy]

He's talking about the Khazar Jews. And about them, Paradox has already said no to it. For one, it's too much content to add in a new religion, for two, it's controversial.

For three, Judaism only had a state for a short while untill the Rus erased Khazar from stage.
For four, on the contrary, the banking & trading impact they had would have had it's place in the republics dlc.

 

[tormos]

I would like to know more about Tribal Invasion feature mentioned. How will that play out, are those invasions still going to include enormous stacks that don't suffer attrition (the Mongols)?

So far as I'm aware this is unclear from the dev diaries (although I did not see the entire livestream). I am optimistic that this mechanic, which causes occasional headaches even now, will not be expanded to cover all heathens. I don't anticipate the Norse either having "huge stacks" while raiding or being extra resistant to attrition (since they weren't as nomadic and fast moving as, well, nomads. I would say it's most likely that other tribes which more closely resemble the Mongols will have similar mechanics, but since they haven't really been covered yet speculating is a bit useless unless some Dev wants to drop some info on us.

 

[takedown47]

Pagan women look sexy

 

[unmerged(467767)]

Love it!

Not sure about the penalty for remaining in peace for too long, though. Being a Viking was a profession some Norsemen took up, and only some Vikings were conquerors. While generally an excellent warrior-people, most were in fact traders. So I think that penalty should disappear after a certain point.

Plus, I would love to see this tie into the Varangian Guard and Constantinople. There should be an event or something for this, where joining the Varangians (even for a short while) gives you a personal trait similar to 'Crusader'.

 

[solamyas]

After reforming the old Norse religion that bonus/malus is disappears.

 

[Nuddle2]

Dat bald fairhair! :laugh:

 

[Graspiloot]

He's talking about the Khazar Jews. And about them, Paradox has already said no to it. For one, it's too much content to add in a new religion, for two, it's controversial.

Controversial? I sincerely hope you mean putting in pogroms and prosecuting of jews in middle ages and not about jews being controversial?

Also there were jewish rulers in ethiopia.

 

[takedown47]

there are progroms in CK2Plus mod.

 

[Vityviktor]

Damn, it looks so good...

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

No racist remarks, no xenophobic comebacks.

 

[Goosecreature]

Love it!

Not sure about the penalty for remaining in peace for too long, though. Being a Viking was a profession some Norsemen took up, and only some Vikings were conquerors. While generally an excellent warrior-people, most were in fact traders. So I think that penalty should disappear after a certain point.

Plus, I would love to see this tie into the Varangian Guard and Constantinople. There should be an event or something for this, where joining the Varangians (even for a short while) gives you a personal trait similar to 'Crusader'.

The penalty will disappear if you convert to another religion or reform the Norse faith.

And you can expect plenty of new Varangian Guard related events.

 

[Balesir]

To the devs: one minor point, what is shown as "Northumerland" should really be "Northumbria" (Old English "Norþanhymbre" or "Norþhymbre" - the þ is the old letter "thorn", from the Norse rune, pronounced, if it is in the middle of a word, as a hard "th", as in "the" and not soft as in "north" ). "Northumberland" is the (later) name used for the county/earldom.

Celtic paganism, not anglo-saxon paganism. We want Celtic paganism to rear its head.

YES.

Which gives me another thought (although the Historian-faction will hate me for this). We need an expansion/mod focused on Middle Age Fantasy, with dragons, druids summoning ghosts, and other crazy shenanigans.

I agree that the scope for modding fantasy worlds is potentially huge, here. I think the best design structure would be effectively a "religion builder" that lets you (in a mod) combine the elements of religions to give all sorts of RW or fantasy religions as possibilities. Likewise, if "species" could be defined (such as "orc", "elf" and so on) the scope would multiply. No idea how complex such a structure would be to move to, though.

For three, Judaism only had a state for a short while untill the Rus erased Khazar from stage.
For four, on the contrary, the banking & trading impact they had would have had it's place in the republics dlc.

Yeah, I would have thought that, in a game as much about individuals as CKII is, any major religion - even if not a major ruling force - would make sense to include. On the other hand, including Judaism may invite unwelcome gameplay (and/or modding) elements from bigots, so it's not without risk.

So far as I'm aware this is unclear from the dev diaries (although I did not see the entire livestream). I am optimistic that this mechanic, which causes occasional headaches even now, will not be expanded to cover all heathens. I don't anticipate the Norse either having "huge stacks" while raiding or being extra resistant to attrition (since they weren't as nomadic and fast moving as, well, nomads. I would say it's most likely that other tribes which more closely resemble the Mongols will have similar mechanics, but since they haven't really been covered yet speculating is a bit useless unless some Dev wants to drop some info on us.

I actually think that, in all Pdx games up until HoI (and maybe excepting late VicII), supply limits should shrink over time while an army is in the same province, unless it is a home province or adjacent to a home province for them. Actually, maybe even then it should shrink the longer they stay, but it would start higher and shrink more slowly. Maybe have a "home ground multiplier" - then you could have one for "neutral ground" as well, which would be perfect. This would benefit fast-moving armies, as they would stay for less time and so suffer less from such "shrinkage". And sieges in distant provinces would be tough (as they were, in fact).

If you really wanted to go to town, you could say that fleets could form a "bridge" to make coastal provinces count as "adjacent to home", thus giving reasons for naval patrols and interdictions (which were actually quite common in medieval times, but you'd need a naval combat system, of course - only having ships fight in coastal waters would work well).

In terms of the DLC itself I have to say that i'm somewhat worried that the game is going to become much easier with an early start date, since if you can get a stable dynasty and your first kingdom/empire up and running early in the first century of play there is now MUCH longer to worry about HRE etc before those pesky Mongols show up and try to rain on your parade. Hopefully Paradox has the balance right so that pagans are a sufficient threat to Catholic rulers to prevent killer blobbing in the longer timeframe.

Well, since the files already exist, I'm assuming that the 1066 start scenario will still be available - has anything been said to the contrary?

 

[Guilu]

Will we see these adventurer mechanics be used for crusades ? They seem very appropriate.

 

[Balesir]

Will we see these adventurer mechanics be used for crusades ? They seem very appropriate.

Good point!

 

[VoodooEconomist]

Good point!

Or at least the preparation phase. That way after the Pope announces the Crusade rulers and knights would have time to declare their participation - this wold increase the coordination and chance of success of crusades, since most often we now see, that even if a force capable of beating the Fatimids and Mamluks gathers, they each arrive at their own leisure and are so dispersed that the stacks of the caliph have no problem with that. I know bickering among the crusaders and fighting for their own glory was "a thing" but they were more coordinated than what is observable in-game now, weren't they?