Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods - Dev Diary 5 - Events, Decisions and Zoroastrians | Page 17

Talq · May 13, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
*snip*

You missed one key important sentence.

Goosecreature in the OP said:
This doesn't cover everything, but as I wanted to write a bit about something else, it will have to do for now.

CzokletMuss · May 13, 2013

Voy said:
Yeah, those musicians doesn't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't mean you can make a trillion threads on the same subject "I think my historical heritage, *insert nationalistic agenda*, won't have more than one unique feature" over and over again. Can we not wait two more weeks until we draw any assumption that there won't be more features for the "other" pagans?

We surely can

And I hope there will be some. Plus I created 2 threads, one with pagan comparison and one with ideas for flavour events. Also don't think about it as nationalistic, as it has nothing in common with XXth century politics; however, if you want to use such categories you should point at the vkings first seeing how hyped they are. And I would also love unique thingies for every pagan group, even West African. I understand that you may be tired by my arguments, but hey, this is forum for people to write their thoughts

Talq said:
You issed one key important sentence.

If there will be more unique features for other pagans revealed this week, I can promise that I will shut up :>

Plasma Doctor · May 13, 2013

HUzzah, recover the Persian Empire as the rightful religion!

Velorian · May 13, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
This doesn't matter at all. You don't need a library to create a raid mechanic or few flavour events. For the purpose of the game, knowing the background and based on wiki alone there could be made interesting additions to each pagans making them unique and interesting to play. Or do you think that one flavour party (blot or other events like it) needs that much research? Because that's all the Romuva, Slav and Suomenusko get by now (I'm talking about unique features).

It may just be my lack of knowledge and creativity speaking, but I'm having trouble conceiving of a new specific mechanic for slavic/romuva pagans, relevant to a ruler, that isn't just flavour. I understand that you'd want more content for them, I also always want more, and would certainly appreciate more content for them but focusing on a few religions is probably a necessary business decision to ensure that they actually make a profit.

I was wondering, given your high specific knowledge in the area and your interest in the subject, maybe you've thought of an interesting mechanic for one of the religions that isn't simply flavour?

ChildeR · May 13, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
If there will be more unique features for other pagans revealed this week, I can promise that I will shut up :>

Looking at the dev diary archive: 1=teaser; 2=raiding; 3=CBs; 4=reformation; 5=flavor. There are supposedly two left and they've said practically nothing about adventurers, so that's got to be one, I think. That leaves only one diary to share much about specific religions... And if The Republic is anything to go by the last diary will probably also tell us something about the patch. They've also said little about how the later start dates will be affected.

TL;DR: My guess is the most we'll learn about religion specific things (other than how they interact with adventurers) will be the screenshots.

CzokletMuss · May 13, 2013

Velorian said:
I was wondering, given your high specific knowledge in the area and your interest in the subject, maybe you've thought of an interesting mechanic for one of the religions that isn't simply flavour?

You are welcome:

POSTRZYZYNY

The ritual first haircut (Polish: postrzyżyny) is a pre-Christian tradition and ceased to be practised in Poland in the 18th century. This first haircut traditionally took place between the ages of 7 and 10, and was conducted by the boy's father. Before that age the boy's life was connected to his mother and he was treated as a child. The ritual haircut, coupled with the granting of an additional given name (usually the third), marked the boy's coming of age and a transition to the world of men, in which he was to be looked after by his father. The ritual also constituted the father's formal act of recognition of the boy as a son.

How to use it? Unique legitimization mechanic!

[remember that pagans must use gavelkind succesion]
1) While your son reaches the age of 10, you get special event - you can either perform "postrzyzyny" or not:
(A) Perform "postrzyzyny" - small boost to relations, maybe flavour trait with some small (+5) bonus from vassals
(B) Do not perform "postrzyzyny" - son gets special version of a bastard trait; he get Diplomacy malus, he hates you (-50 Opinion) and he won't inherit BUT when you die he will ALWAYS get a strong claim on your titles

Voila! You have unique mechanic based on one of the Slav traditions which will allow you to change the way you play the game: you can more easily choose your heirs but you risk even more severe civil war after your death - with concubines instead of 1-2 sons with strong claims you can end with 5 or 6 of them. This mechanic gives a new dynamic to the succession - it aint' big change, but it is quite cool if you want to stay unreformed pagan - it creates sort of mix between gavelkind and elective law.

It can also be connected with more flavour, like for example some trials or whole ritual of passage (son can loose some Health but gain Brave or improve his warrior education) or smth like this. It isn't OP - besides you always can change gavelkind into primogeniture by killing all the sons, but this is awfuly gamey - and it forces you to balance your options (you can always end up choosing a boy who will become a drunkard or die quickly because you're choosing while he's 10 but at least you can choose those with good genes).

Note that this is based specifically on Polish culture, however I think it could be extend to all Slavs - it wouldn't be such a big stretch and this is better than nothing. If there are other ideas, I would love to hear them - I'm not saying that this is the best one. But I think it is interesting.

Velorian · May 13, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
How to use it? Unique legitimization mechanic!

[remember that pagans must use gavelkind succesion]
1) While your son reaches the age of 10, you get special event - you can either perform "postrzyzyny" or not:
(A) Perform "postrzyzyny" - small boost to relations, maybe flavour trait with some small (+5) bonus from vassals
(B) Do not perform "postrzyzyny" - son gets special version of a bastard trait; he get Diplomacy malus, he hates you (-50 Opinion) and he won't inherit BUT when you die he will ALWAYS get a strong claim on your titles

Voila! You have unique mechanic based on one of the Slav traditions which will allow you to change the way you play the game: you can more easily choose your heirs but you risk even more severe civil war after your death - with concubines instead of 1-2 sons with strong claims you can end with 5 or 6 of them. This mechanic gives a new dynamic to the succession - it aint' big change, but it is quite cool if you want to stay unreformed pagan - it creates sort of mix between gavelkind and elective law.

It can also be connected with more flavour, like for example some trials or whole ritual of passage (son can loose some Health but gain Brave or improve his warrior education) or smth like this. It isn't OP - besides you always can change gavelkind into primogeniture by killing all the sons, but this is awfuly gamey - and it forces you to balance your options (you can always end up choosing a boy who will become a drunkard or die quickly because you're choosing while he's 10 but at least you can choose those with good genes).

Note that this is based specifically on Polish culture, however I think it could be extend to all Slavs - it wouldn't be such a big stretch and this is better than nothing. If there are other ideas, I would love to hear them - I'm not saying that this is the best one. But I think it is interesting.

It sounds pretty interesting, was it ever used to disinherit a healthy son, though? I'm wondering how a realm back then would have reacted to a ruler disinheriting his first 2-3 sons. It's a pretty cool idea, I'm just wondering if the act of disinheriting a seemingly valid son wouldn't be seen as scandal?

cybrxkhan · May 13, 2013

@CzokletMuss: Do you know of any good internet or scholarly sources/articles about this? I'd like to read up a bit more on the specifics of how this works, because it seems pretty cool.

Manic Eskimo · May 13, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
You are welcome:

How to use it? Unique legitimization mechanic!

[remember that pagans must use gavelkind succesion]
1) While your son reaches the age of 10, you get special event - you can either perform "postrzyzyny" or not:
(A) Perform "postrzyzyny" - small boost to relations, maybe flavour trait with some small (+5) bonus from vassals
(B) Do not perform "postrzyzyny" - son gets special version of a bastard trait; he get Diplomacy malus, he hates you (-50 Opinion) and he won't inherit BUT when you die he will ALWAYS get a strong claim on your titles

Voila! You have unique mechanic based on one of the Slav traditions which will allow you to change the way you play the game: you can more easily choose your heirs but you risk even more severe civil war after your death - with concubines instead of 1-2 sons with strong claims you can end with 5 or 6 of them. This mechanic gives a new dynamic to the succession - it aint' big change, but it is quite cool if you want to stay unreformed pagan - it creates sort of mix between gavelkind and elective law.

It can also be connected with more flavour, like for example some trials or whole ritual of passage (son can loose some Health but gain Brave or improve his warrior education) or smth like this. It isn't OP - besides you always can change gavelkind into primogeniture by killing all the sons, but this is awfuly gamey - and it forces you to balance your options (you can always end up choosing a boy who will become a drunkard or die quickly because you're choosing while he's 10 but at least you can choose those with good genes).

Note that this is based specifically on Polish culture, however I think it could be extend to all Slavs - it wouldn't be such a big stretch and this is better than nothing. If there are other ideas, I would love to hear them - I'm not saying that this is the best one. But I think it is interesting.

I think that's a fantastic idea

CzokletMuss · May 13, 2013

I would have to search a little bit, especially for something in English, however there is one thing from roughly TOG period which I can post right now:

Prince Popiel ІІ (or Duke Popiel) was a legendary 9th century ruler of the West Slavic ("proto-Polish") tribe of Goplans and Polans, the last member of the pre-Piast dynasty, the Popielids. According to the chroniclers Gallus Anonymus, Jan Długosz and Marcin Kromer, as a consequence of his bad rule he was deposed, besieged by his subjects, and eaten alive by mice in a tower in Kruszwica.

This was background, now take a look at this:

There are several versions of the legend. The first one by Gallus Anonymus states Popiel ruled over Goplans in Kruszwica (or Gniezno). One day, two travellers wanted to visit the ducal court but were not invited into a feast, which broke the slavonic “rule of hospitality”.

An explanation is needed here- Slavonic peoples treated this rule with upmost importance. It was a common belief, shared by everyone, that a visitor to one’s house should be treated with respect and with the greatest possible hospitality – as a VIP guest, so to say. There is a proverb that lasted to this day “gość w dom , bogi w dom” (“guest is in the house, gods (or god) are in the house”). The rule included also sworn enemies, that would kill each other if they met somewhere else (sic!). One could go to the enemy’s abode and shout “I come as your guest!” (if not shot by an archer or killed other way before, being normally treated as an assulter…) and the custom, if respected, allowed him to enter foe’s home unharmed and leaving it unharmed. The custom remained very long and parts of it are respected to this day (the famous “Polish hospitality” ).

So, after breaking the rule of hospitality, the mysterious guests left for the abode of Piast Oracz (Piast the Plower), and they arrived on postrzyżyny day of his 7 years old son Siemowit (postrzyżyny was a ritual hair cutting and giving the official name). Piast upheld the rule of hospitality and thanks to that Siemowit received blessings from the visitors. In the years to come, Siemowit overthrew Popiel and became a duke and a founder of Piast dynasty of Polish kings. Popiel himself was eaten by mice.

So as you can see, Popiel was hosting a party because of the postrzyżyny (other chieftains were invited). This ritual wasn't really connected to the succession per se as you can see, but I think that using it in that way would be a step in a right direction gameplay-wise. Mind that the cutting one's hair even today is a symbol of changing your social status - for example when joining the army or becoming a monk. In reality the typical age of postrzyżyny was 7 - a magic number (good luck and so on). There are number of theories about the significance of this ritual, varying from just an empty tradition (and party!) even to the postrzyżyny as a way of adopting somebody like in Rome through adoptio. The point is that the boy was officialy accepted as a part of the family and a man who can help his father and in general do "manly" things.

cybrxkhan said:
@CzokletMuss: Do you know of any good internet or scholarly sources/articles about this? I'd like to read up a bit more on the specifics of how this works, because it seems pretty cool.

This is more my adaptation of this tradition into the game's terms than how it really worked - but while we have a giat inaccuracies like hereditary titles in Byzantium it wouldn't be a big stretch.
About reading - do you speak Polish?

It'll be hard to find something in English I'm afraid, to the point that my thred on this forum is on the first google result page (sic!).

Anyways: here is an article on the subject wrote by the prof. Gansiniec (cultural history) in Polish http://chomikuj.pl/immensely/S*c5*8...c5*bcyny+s*c5*82owia*c5*84skie,1312885441.pdf

Velg · May 13, 2013

even to the postrzyżyny as a way of adopting somebody like in Rome through adoptio.

Well, in polish wikipedia I see that sometimes person other than father performed the rite – and this created some „artificial relationship”. I don't remember Piast's legend so good as to remember if Siemowit's haircut was performed by strangers (thus implying „relationship” beetwen Piats and angels) – or he was only baptised and blessed – but I think that gives interesting idea for some variation of this event. What if ruler / vassal was imprisoned during the rite? I imagine some event about the child's family asking vassal of imprisoned liege /liege of imprisoned vassal to perform it in lieu of one in dungeon – thus creating some interesting room for claims / succession crisises

Anyways: here is an article on the subject wrote by the prof. Gansiniec (cultural history) http://chomikuj.pl/immensely/S*c5*82...1312885441.pdf

In Polish, have to add

CzokletMuss · May 13, 2013

Corrected.

Exactly. This is just one example of how interesting the thing can be with some more attention

Some other sources of inspiration:

1) DZIADY

Dziady was an ancient Slavic feast to commemorate the dead. Literally, the word is translated as "Grandfathers". It was held twice every year (in the spring and autumn). During the feast the ancient Slavs organized libations and ritual meals. In local mythologies such feasts were organized both for the living and for the souls of the forefathers who joined the dziady after dark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dziady

2) BABA YAGA

In Slavic folklore, Baba Yaga is a supernatural being (or one of a trio of sisters of the same name) who appears as a deformed and/or ferocious-looking woman. Baba Yaga flies around in a mortar, wields a pestle, and dwells deep in the forest in a hut usually described as standing on chicken legs. Baba Yaga may help or hinder those that encounter or seek her out and may play a maternal role and has associations with forest wildlife. According to Vladimir Propp's folktale morphology, Baba Yaga commonly appears as either a donor, villain, or may be altogether ambiguous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga

3) KUPALA NIGHT

On Kupala day, youth jump over the flames of bonfires in a ritual testing of one's bravery and faith. A couple in love's failure to complete the jump while holding their hands is a sign of their destined separation. Girls would float wreaths of flowers often lit with candles on rivers and would attempt to gain foresight into their relationship fortunes from the flow patterns of the flowers on the river. Men may attempt to capture the wreaths, in the hope of capturing the interest of the woman who floated the wreath. Traditionally, unmarried women, signified by their garlands on their hair, would be the first to enter the forests. They are followed by young men. Therefore, consequent to the quest in finding herbs and the fern flower may be the blooming of relationships between pairs of men and women within the forest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala_Night

4) PERUN FESTIVAL

In the middle of summer, there was a festival associated with thunder-god Perun, in post-Christian times transformed into a very important festival of Saint Elijah. It was considered the holiest time of the year, and there are some indications from historic sources that it involved human sacrifices. The harvest probably began afterwards.

BTW if you think that I'm contaminating this thread with Slav ancient traditions I can always start a new one

Velg · May 13, 2013

1) DZIADY

While I don't even claim that would be accurate at least, I'd just love to have it as in the Polish poem by the same name [or Forefathers' Eve, as it's translated into English, I believe]. This chant, and ancestors providing a good or bad insights (possibly depending on relations with person doing the rite) would be pretty cool

And I think that it's not beyond the level of closing the Gates to Hell

cybrxkhan · May 13, 2013

Thanks for all the info. Unfortunately I'm Asian-American so I don't know a word of Polish.

I just wanted some more info on some of the more specific aspects of the ritual/big party.

But yea, I like your idea for adopting it into the game. PI has had worse historical inaccuracies, so in terms of 100% accuracy this would be pretty tame in comparison.

CzokletMuss · May 13, 2013

If you need some specific details just ask, I can translate some parts

Mr. Habba · May 13, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
You are welcome:

How to use it? Unique legitimization mechanic!

[remember that pagans must use gavelkind succesion]
1) While your son reaches the age of 10, you get special event - you can either perform "postrzyzyny" or not:
(A) Perform "postrzyzyny" - small boost to relations, maybe flavour trait with some small (+5) bonus from vassals
(B) Do not perform "postrzyzyny" - son gets special version of a bastard trait; he get Diplomacy malus, he hates you (-50 Opinion) and he won't inherit BUT when you die he will ALWAYS get a strong claim on your titles

Voila! You have unique mechanic based on one of the Slav traditions which will allow you to change the way you play the game: you can more easily choose your heirs but you risk even more severe civil war after your death - with concubines instead of 1-2 sons with strong claims you can end with 5 or 6 of them. This mechanic gives a new dynamic to the succession - it aint' big change, but it is quite cool if you want to stay unreformed pagan - it creates sort of mix between gavelkind and elective law.

It can also be connected with more flavour, like for example some trials or whole ritual of passage (son can loose some Health but gain Brave or improve his warrior education) or smth like this. It isn't OP - besides you always can change gavelkind into primogeniture by killing all the sons, but this is awfuly gamey - and it forces you to balance your options (you can always end up choosing a boy who will become a drunkard or die quickly because you're choosing while he's 10 but at least you can choose those with good genes).

Note that this is based specifically on Polish culture, however I think it could be extend to all Slavs - it wouldn't be such a big stretch and this is better than nothing. If there are other ideas, I would love to hear them - I'm not saying that this is the best one. But I think it is interesting.

I actually like this idea. Especially because it would be very easy to implement (just a few events and traits), but it would give pagan Slavs some uniqueness (which all the pagans deserve). Given that the Slavic religion is a more "defensive" religion (unlike the Norse and Tengri) it's quite fitting that their special mechanic is about internal politics/succession. Although I think it should have more severe consequences if you disinherit a perfectly legitimate son. Though I'm no expert on this subject, so if it actually was viable to deny this ritual (with the unpronounceable name) to your son, I'm fine with it.

ivicaeu3 · May 13, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
.

Note that this is based specifically on Polish culture, however I think it could be extend to all Slavs - it wouldn't be such a big stretch and this is better than nothing. If there are other ideas, I would love to hear them - I'm not saying that this is the best one. But I think it is interesting.

In Serbia, even in this days, there is a similar custom, 'strižba' (similar to word 'postrzyżyny' ). Accepted by the Serbian Orthodox Church, but originates from the ancient pagan customs. It is also ritual first haircut, but was conducted by the child's godfather.

Aardvark Bellay · May 13, 2013

Sounds like intriguing stuff. Yeah, would be nice.

cybrxkhan · May 14, 2013

CzokletMuss said:
If you need some specific details just ask, I can translate some parts

Cool, thanks. I'm just looking for some flavor stuff that could happen while the party/ritual is underway. Sort of like those small events when you have summer fairs or Ramadan, for instance, you know. Like what sort of things might people be doing during the ritual.

ShotoLord · May 14, 2013

Last pagans of Europe = Lithuanians

Why won't Paradox give as much love to other pagans, instead of mostly the Norse?

Field Marshal

The Emprah

Look What Time It Is!

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

The Emprah

Field Marshal

Going to Scarborough Fair

Lt. General

The Emprah

Velg

Guest

The Emprah

Velg

Guest

Going to Scarborough Fair

The Emprah

Captain

Second Lieutenant

Lord Wuffington of Grumpytown by the barks

Going to Scarborough Fair

First Lieutenant