Crusader Kings III: Chapter IV

[Bootymcboots]

This will be my first time ever not buying the season pass for CK3. These are all DLC I would have loved and wanted at some point, but the DLC has been so weak for so long I no longer have faith in the execution of these ideas. I will wait and see what it looks like and I hope others will do the same if they feel similarly.

 

[deedo]

This all sounds AMAZING!

My main point of concern, and indeed, that of many of us, is how All Under Heaven is going to impact performance. I really don't want my dreams to be shattered on launch because the game crashes after 150 years because there are too many characters.

So here's my question: Will this considerably damage the game's speed or ability to run on certain pcs? Will there be optimizations made to make it run smoother?

If I can play this on my computer without the game crashing or slowing to a snail's pace, I see this being my absolute favorite expansion in the game's history. China, Japan, Indonesia? Aw heck yeah this is going to be so great, I literally can't wait. I'm going to brush up on my Chinese history.

 

[Kabiliam]

I'm excited about the DLC expanding into Asia, but I'm concerned about optimization.
I hope they provide a setting to turn off certain regions to minimize computation

 

[Sietrin]

I hope for a revolutionary change in the gameengine otherwise China would be a disaster with its immense size and amount of characters

 

[smeyushyisabog]

It's amazing!!!

P.S. A question that I did not find. Will the seasons and the dependence on fertility be all over the map? In the Middle Ages, all nations depended on the harvest, as well as on the climate.
This would deepen the atmosphere of the entire game, and I think those people who expect the additions to develop the depth of the game, rather than its scale, would be satisfied.

 

[jinggachingu]

Please let me know when China invaded and dominated the Asian continent, puppeting Indonesia, Vietnam and Japan (or worse, annexing them outright, supplanting the local languages and culture with its own. or vice versa Japan doing this to China and Korea, or south east asia... hell, maybe either might blob and go as far as Europe).

Because that is exactly what you are going to end up with if it shares the same AI as the rest of the game.

China might not have invaded or puppeting Indonesia, but they were the hegemon of the region and their presence carried weight. Many of Indonesian's kings, and I know other kings throughout SEA as well, seeked the approval of Chinese Emperor. Hegemony = Land border is a more modern approach.

Asian history is particularly singular in that there were less wars between neighbouring countries than in Europe. Far less. And when there were, the territorial changes were smaller.

???? Which part of Asia are you talking about??? China literally collapse and rebuilt every freaking sunday, SEA Maritime had cousins and incests war at monday, and SEA Mainland murder each other for the rest of the week. Literally the reason why every single SEA critiques hated Disney SEA representation in Raya was because the message was that we all like and trust each other when in reality we never do.

 

[M0ridin]

Question: The Khans of the Steppe diary mentioned landless stepped tribes. How would that work? Would we see the losers of steppe conflicts migrating out of the steppes as refugees, either trying their luck with conquering the settled kingdoms, or working for them in exchange for land?

The latter is something I was very eager to see, so we could experience something like the historical path for the Seljuks of Rum, where they were populated by Turkish tribes fleeing the Mongols. I know this might be a big ask, mechanics wise, but would it be possible to have landless tribes become vassals of certain settled kingdoms, in exchange for a promise of future land? So in the short term, even a seemingly smaller kingdom can get stronger to punch above its weight against bigger empires like the Byzantines. Maybe they can be vassals who contribute troops, but have to be paid rather than paying taxes? I would love to play around with this mechanic, but I could see that this might have potential to be game-breaking.

Also, when conquering out of the steppes, can you keep your horde government form, and its mechanics? Can you graze your herds on non-steppe land? Or do you face a choice between either razing everything to create grazing land or reforming into a settled government to match your new non-nomadic government, like in CK2?

 

[M0ridin]

Very excited to see the Asia expansion! As someone from the Tamil country, which is currently on the map, I've still never played in my home region, because so much of our history is tied not to the rest of the Indian subcontinent, but to maritime Southeast Asia, that without a Southeast Asia on the map, it felt like there was no point. (Also, the lack of linguistic localisation difference between North and South India can be immersion breaking when titles in the South are given Sanskritic names that have never been used in the South, but that's a more minor point)

Similarly, playing on the steppes in CK2 felt very limiting because of the lack of ability to go East, which was after all the main focus of the Mongols, the West was more of an afterthought. Much though the horde government form was my absolute favourite in CK2, that always felt like a limiting factor.

Playing in South and Central Asia should not feel like you're on the very edge of the world and the margins of civilisation. In this time period, these regions were very much in the centre of everything, a dynamic zone that carried all interactions between the Middle Kingdom, the true centre of the ancient world, and the distant lands of the West and Africa.

Hell, even Alauddin Khilji and Timur both had unrealised ambitions of conquering China towards the end of their lives. These dreams may have been unrealistic, but they do show that rulers in this time period faced towards China and were obsessed with it as much as they were with dominating their home region. The idea we have of South Asians being confined to South Asia, Africans to Africa, Europeans to European, etc, is a very modern one and not how things were seen in the middle ages.

 

[M0ridin]

China might not have invaded or puppeting Indonesia, but they were the hegemon of the region and their presence carried weight. Many of Indonesian's kings, and I know other kings throughout SEA as well, seeked the approval of Chinese Emperor. Hegemony = Land border is a more modern approach.


???? Which part of Asia are you talking about??? China literally collapse and rebuilt every freaking sunday, SEA Maritime had cousins and incests war at monday, and SEA Mainland murder each other for the rest of the week. Literally the reason why every single SEA critiques hated Disney SEA representation in Raya was because the message was that we all like and trust each other when in reality we never do.

Most definitely. That original comment was batshit crazy and displays a complete lack of understanding of non-European history. Europe was more stable and had fewer changes compared to Asia in this time period. Asia saw the rise and fall of Empire after Empire, drastically redrawing the map every successive century.

And to add on to what you've said, many conquerors outside China planned or attempted to conquer China during this period. Aside from the obvious steppe conquerors, both Timur and Alauddin Khilji of the Delhi Sultanate had ambitions to conquer China and claim the Celestial Throne (in Timur's case, to restore Mongol rule of China). While Allauddin Khilji's just remained an unrealistic dream, Timur actually started out on his campaign before his death brought it to a premature halt.

So seeing AI rulers with the Conqueror trait trying to conquer China would not be ahistorical at all.

 

[alchemistre]

For the Q&A: can we expect an overhaul of the concubinage system as part of the major expansion?
As it is now would not accurately reflect those days in China. Right now it is barely any different from secondary spouses.

 

[gurufabbes]

Most definitely. That original comment was batshit crazy and displays a complete lack of understanding of non-European history. Europe was more stable and had fewer changes compared to Asia in this time period. Asia saw the rise and fall of Empire after Empire, drastically redrawing the map every successive century.

And to add on to what you've said, many conquerors outside China planned or attempted to conquer China during this period. Aside from the obvious steppe conquerors, both Timur and Alauddin Khilji of the Delhi Sultanate had ambitions to conquer China and claim the Celestial Throne (in Timur's case, to restore Mongol rule of China). While Allauddin Khilji's just remained an unrealistic dream, Timur actually started out on his campaign before his death brought it to a premature halt.

So seeing AI rulers with the Conqueror trait trying to conquer China would not be ahistorical at all.

Most definitely. That original comment was batshit crazy and displays a complete lack of understanding of non-European history. Europe was more stable and had fewer changes compared to Asia in this time period. Asia saw the rise and fall of Empire after Empire, drastically redrawing the map every successive century.

Some civility please.

You have the one exception of the Mongol Empire that led a rampage through most of the known world, including China and surrounding nations. But that's more the exception than the rule.

The phenomenon of long term takeovers, which is what you're going to end up with, as in Europe did not occur.

-Again, let me know when China took over parts of South East Asia, Japan, even Korea? The way the game will function will have the Koreans assimilate to Chinese in 2 centuries, after China ahistorically invades the place.

But back to some crucial questions:

-Please let me know the Roman Empire of the Asian continent.
-Please let me know about the level of marriage between the royal houses of Japan, Korea and the Chinese. Also let me know when the result of such marriages resulted in claims of the entire kingdoms?
The countries of Asia were mostly inwardly focused, especially China. An AI simulating it would have to take very different decisions than the Vanilla game.

And to add on to what you've said, many conquerors outside China planned or attempted to conquer China during this period. Aside from the obvious steppe conquerors, both Timur and Alauddin Khilji of the Delhi Sultanate had ambitions to conquer China and claim the Celestial Throne (in Timur's case, to restore Mongol rule of China). While Allauddin Khilji's just remained an unrealistic dream, Timur actually started out on his campaign before his death brought it to a premature halt.

As I assumed, you would take the one example which is more the result of a marauding horde looking for more territory and power, that didn't last that long, vs the common structures and ways of East Asia, or South-East Asia.

Again, I fully expect the way the game will be constructed that you'll have ahistorical vestiges left by the Mongols, like Tengri becoming a state religion, and parts of central China speaking Mongolian.

And once it happens, there will be people complaining saying 'how could this happen?' 'no one told us it was going to end up like this'.
Right.

 

[gurufabbes]

China might not have invaded or puppeting Indonesia, but they were the hegemon of the region and their presence carried weight. Many of Indonesian's kings, and I know other kings throughout SEA as well, seeked the approval of Chinese Emperor. Hegemony = Land border is a more modern approach.


???? Which part of Asia are you talking about??? China literally collapse and rebuilt every freaking sunday, SEA Maritime had cousins and incests war at monday, and SEA Mainland murder each other for the rest of the week. Literally the reason why every single SEA critiques hated Disney SEA representation in Raya was because the message was that we all like and trust each other when in reality we never do.

China might not have invaded or puppeting Indonesia, but they were the hegemon of the region and their presence carried weight. Many of Indonesian's kings, and I know other kings throughout SEA as well, seeked the approval of Chinese Emperor. Hegemony = Land border is a more modern approach.

China's dominance in East Asia was cultural.
It officially gave 'sanction' to foreign rulers by calling them sub-rulers, but in name only. They exercised little actual control, with the exception perhaps of neighbouring Korea, and even that we can debate.

Same as they would refer to 'trade' as 'tribute' from the rest of the inferior world etc....

Chinese forces and navy were not involved in wars in these regions, and they didn't try to make them de jure parts of their realm. China even then was more inwardly focused and felt it had enough to deal with in its own borders, though with some limited expansions westwards to Tibet, Xinjiang etc...

???? Which part of Asia are you talking about??? China literally collapse and rebuilt every freaking sunday, SEA Maritime had cousins and incests war at monday, and SEA Mainland murder each other for the rest of the week. Literally the reason why every single SEA critiques hated Disney SEA representation in Raya was because the message was that we all like and trust each other when in reality we never do.

These were local conflicts with neighbouring states.

The main subject here is whether, if it uses the same AI as Europe, having a blob across the continent would in any way be historical.
My point is: no. Exception would be the short-lived Mongol empire, which isn't really representative of any of the Asia continent.


What I fear we're going to end up with is:

Ahistorical accumulation of territory by one Empire each game that lasts. Eventually we'll start seeing them join wars in Europe. Ever wondered what the Ming would have done in the Crusades? Maybe the Ming crusade for Northern France or London?
We're going to find out.

Crusader Qings 3.

 

[jinggachingu]

China's dominance in East Asia was cultural.
It officially gave 'sanction' to foreign rulers by calling them sub-rulers, but in name only. They exercised little actual control, with the exception perhaps of neighbouring Korea, and even that we can debate.

Same as they would refer to 'trade' as 'tribute' from the rest of the inferior world etc....

Chinese forces and navy were not involved in wars in these regions, and they didn't try to make them de jure parts of their realm. China even then was more inwardly focused and felt it had enough to deal with in its own borders, though with some limited expansions westwards to Tibet, Xinjiang etc...

Except it's not. You claim you like Chinese history, then you should've known China actually treated them like a subject when they needed to and had done it numerous times, e.g how Yuan forces Korea to build ships to invade Japan. Because again, Feudalism in Asia is not contract base of what you can and you can't do. it's flexible and whimsical because Hegemony was not a land-base contract, it's influenced base interaction where the strong demand things from the weak around them, and this type of "feudalism" practices were every where across East and Southeast Asia. And it's not just "Trade", Many war had been stopped across Indonesia just because the king got approval from a Chinese emperor. Their status as a hegemon carried a huge weight so much that it would stop a war.

And yes, you are correct, they were inwardly focus, except when they were not, and that is literally how it was back then in medieval times. There is not constitution or international law that govern, "Oh we are inward focus, so we got -1 stability for declaring war".

These were local conflicts with neighbouring states.

The main subject here is whether, if it uses the same AI as Europe, having a blob across the continent would in any way be historical.
My point is: no. Exception would be the short-lived Mongol empire, which isn't really representative of any of the Asia continent.


What I fear we're going to end up with is:

Ahistorical accumulation of territory by one Empire each game that lasts. Eventually we'll start seeing them join wars in Europe. Ever wondered what the Ming would have done in the Crusades? Maybe the Ming crusade for Northern France or London?
We're going to find out.

Crusader Qings 3.

The main subjects here is you said and I quoted, "Asian history is particularly singular in that there were less wars" which is not only untrue, but also showed your lack of understanding and respect for Asian history and culture.

And since it seems you are unaware, Muslims Crusade a.k.a Jihad did extend to chinese "territory" because again, countering your first point about China influence is only "In name only", they did care and act like a sovereign when they wanted to.

"Ahistorical accumulation of territory by one Empire each game that lasts. Eventually we'll start seeing them join wars in Europe." I hope you do realize that the reason why this is ahistorical was because Tang lost the war for Central Asia. And this is what these games, EU CK HOI4 Vic, are all about, exploring the ahistorical fantasy that might & might not happened.

Again, as far as I read, your arguments did not at all show any interest or appreciation, and instead showed your complete disrespect, ignorance, and lack of awareness of Asian history and how China literally had been a behemoth in shaping Asian history directly and indirectly, most of the time without even them directly interfering. That is Chinese HEGEMONY, not massive land border my land ala Roman Empire.

 

[aentrch]

Except it's not. You claim you like Chinese history, then you should've known China actually treated them like a subject when they needed to and had done it numerous times, e.g how Yuan forces Korea to build ships to invade Japan.

Only after nine invasions from 1231 to 1259 did the Yuan dynasty finally make Goryeo a vassal state. The Song dynasty could not exert influence over Goryeo because the Liao and Jin dynasties were blocking the path to Goryeo. Korea became dependent on China after the Mongol Empire, and this was largely due to the fact that the capital was Beijing, which was close to Korea, after the Yuan dynasty.

 

[jinggachingu]

Only after nine invasions from 1231 to 1239 did the Yuan dynasty finally make Goryeo a vassal state. The Song dynasty could not exert influence over Goryeo because the Liao and Jin dynasties were blocking the path to Goryeo. Korea became dependent on China after the Mongol Empire, and this was largely due to the fact that the capital was Beijing, which was close to Korea, after the Yuan dynasty.

which was my point, "it's flexible and whimsical", but more on the flexible part in this anecdote.

 

[gurufabbes]

which was my point, "it's flexible and whimsical"

This sounds like a historian propping up an idea that has no basis in reality.

Except it's not. You claim you like Chinese history, then you should've known China actually treated them like a subject when they needed to and had done it numerous times, e.g how Yuan forces Korea to build ships to invade Japan. Because again, Feudalism in Asia is not contract base of what you can and you can't do.

Indeed, because it isn't feudalism. It isn't comparable to what existed in Europe. For all intents and purposes, it was nothing. Little beyond rhetorical flexing, as China did not exercise direct control over these other countries, and did not fight wars on the other side of Asia for them.

This is different from what existed in Europe, and honestly, there is no reason to have China function with similar systems.

I go further than other people here in simply saying: China just doesn't fit in Crusader Kings 3 at all. What was done in CK2 made sense, this is just going to needlessly make the game less realistic.

Many war had been stopped across Indonesia just because the king got approval from a Chinese emperor. Their status as a hegemon carried a huge weight so much that it would stop a war.

Same response as above. It was perhaps a ceremonial title/status that made zero difference.

The only way the game will translate this is by having China send armies over to protect their ally. This did not happen in real life.

This would be ridiculous. Again, once this releases, I am going to watch streams to see what comes out, with popcorn in hand.

And yes, you are correct, they were inwardly focus, except when they were not, and that is literally how it was back then in medieval times. There is not constitution or international law that govern, "Oh we are inward focus, so we got -1 stability for declaring war".

Then again, it's something different than in Europe. In Europe overall, dukedoms, realms, kingdoms fought wars against each other all the time, with constantly changing borders. The system fits that.

That is not what was going on as often in Asia, with far less changes in borders of realms.

The main subjects here is you said and I quoted, "Asian history is particularly singular in that there were less wars" which is not only untrue, but also showed your lack of understanding and respect for Asian history and culture.

And this is 100 percent correct. Can you give me a 100 years war in Asia? a 30 years war? Something similar to the Crusades? The Northern Crusades even?
Guelphs and Ghibellines?

I mean just look at this:

List of wars: 1000–1499 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The numerous constant conflicts between the French and the English?

There were far less conflicts of this kind in Asia, definitely between realms in Asia, and this is simply a fact.

Applying this AI and system there will result in weird things happening.

And since it seems you are unaware, Muslims Crusade a.k.a Jihad did extend to chinese "territory" because again, countering your first point about China influence is only "In name only", they did care and act like a sovereign when they wanted to.

Really? Where?
Or is this some odd interpretation of history whereby a Chinese emperor declared Egypt to be part of China, and thus by extension, China was in the Crusades?

I'm trying to keep things serious here.

I hope you do realize that the reason why this is ahistorical was because Tang lost the war for Central Asia. And this is what these games, EU CK HOI4 Vic, are all about, exploring the ahistorical fantasy that might & might not happened.

Again, as far as I read, your arguments did not at all show any interest or appreciation, and instead showed your complete disrespect, ignorance, and lack of awareness of Asian history and how China literally had been a behemoth in shaping Asian history directly and indirectly, most of the time without even them directly interfering. That is Chinese HEGEMONY, not massive land border my land ala Roman Empire.

A historical simulation game should involve countries and personalities acting as they historically did. China, over its numerous civil wars, millions of subjects, constant intrigue was inward-focused for a reason: it has enough to deal with inside its borders.

I am quite aware of the history, but I am simply reducing things to the realm of facts here when we are talking about such an overhaul.
I have already mentioned that China, and particularly its merchants, were cultural hegemons across East Asia, parts of South East Asia. That is undeniable. But they were not a geopolitical empire expanding across it. It was very much focused inwardly. It's fairly recent that China is even involved in international affairs.

Calling this 'ignorance' is simply an admission that you cannot argue against the truth I've brought.


Outside of all this, I'll concede one thing: Paradox was able to make adjustments with the Rajas of India to reflect the particularities there, and not have some unified Indian state blob everywhere. I hope they do the same for China, having internal intrigue and the rewards of development make the AI act historically.


History does not lie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1000–1499
Almost every single war on this list involving China is a rebellion, or part and parcel of the Mongol invasion (and to get to 100%, some conflicts over north Vietnam and Yunnan).

And the same seems to go for other Asian nations here as well. The numbers of conflicts are small, and then almost non-existent outside of internal struggles.

And it's a tiny proportion compared the constant wars over religion, family struggles, political struggles, empire-building you had almost every year in Europe.

 

[tetra3]

Some additional questions, following from my previous ones:

1. Will there be any additions/changes made to the mechanics of the Mongol Empire fragmenting?
2. Will some measure of the imperial consorts be represented/playable in the Chinese government? As far as examples of women wielding political power in China go, the most obvious example would be Wu Zhao, but even ignoring her there have been instances throughout Chinese history of empress dowagers who used regencies (which they were often expected to participate in) to gain power (e.g. Empress Lü of Han and Empress Liu of Song).
3. Will some measure of the imperial eunuchs be represented/playable in the Chinese government? While their reputation as being corrupt and conniving is probably (in the majority of cases) undeserved, they did serve an important role in the Chinese administration. And there were of course those who actually were corrupt and conniving, and secured significant amounts of political power. If the concern is that they do not make for good dynastic gameplay, I would highlight that (at least during part of the Tang), eunuchs were eventually allowed to adopt children and even have wives.
4. As a side-question to performance concerns, will the long loading times be addressed in anticipation of All Under Heaven? For a while now CK3 has suffered from strangely long loading times when booting up the game, with bigger mods especially taking an absurd amount of time to start. I imagine both a vanilla CK3 with an expanded map and large mods would benefit from an improvement here.

 

[cybrxkhan]

A few more questions from me for the Q&A:

1. Will the Buddhist faiths be split further? If there are no changes and the Buddhist faiths remain divided as they currently are, then you would see, for instance, Mahayana Buddhism stretching from Afghanistan to Japan and cover an enormous part of the map, representing often divergent and different traditions within Buddhism. If there will be a split, how would the split happen? Will there be for instance separate faiths for Chinese Buddhism, Vietnamese Buddhism, etc.? Or will the splits be by Buddhist schools/sects specifically, such as a Chan/Zen faith, Shingon, Tiantai, etc.?
2. In a similar vein, how will the syncretic trends in various Buddhist regions be represented such as Vietnam, Korea, Japan, etc. where indigenous practices and deities are part of the religion alongside Buddhism proper? For instance, the division of Shinto and Buddhism as we know it in Japan is more of a modern, Meiji-era construct, so if there isn't a "Japanese Buddhist" faith, for instance, would such religious content or flavor be specific to Japanese heritage?
3. On a related note, will there be a Shugendo faith in Japan, and if so, would it be part of the Buddhist religion or is it separate?
4. Will there be new religious families, or will most of the new non-Dharmic/non-Abrahamic faiths in Asia be part of the Pagan religious family?
5. Will Shen Kuo be a playable character in the 1066 start date? As a polymath scholar, he would be an interesting character to play as, and he was also an official around this time.

Thank you for your time again!

 

[Carcossa Castile]

And this is 100 percent correct. Can you give me a 100 years war in Asia? a 30 years war? Something similar to the Crusades? The Northern Crusades even?
Guelphs and Ghibellines?

I will say that there is a hundred-year religious war in Tibet, fought between the Drikung and the Sakya schools. The war was initially between Tibetan nobles, but later also involve Mongol forces. The Drikungpa established contacts with the Western Mongols (later the Chagatai Khanate) since the early 13th century, while the Sakyapa allied with the Eastern Mongols, later submitted to the Yuan Dynasty.

The ongoing conflict reached its zenith in 1285, when the Drikungpa attacked and burned the Jayül (Bya yul) monastery. In reaction, the Yuan general Sang-ko marched to Tibet, defeating the Drikungpa and their Chagataid allies, and destroyed the Drikung Thil monastery in 1291.

A relatively more famous religious war occured in the 16-17th centuries, ending with Gushi Khan's conquest of Tibet and the rise of the Dalai Lama.

1. Will the Buddhist faiths be split further?

I strongly suggest to split the "Nangchos" faith to represent the major sects of Tibetan Buddhism. Although different sects are usually syncretic, and it is common for a single ruler to patronize lamas from schools that are not his primary sect, the military and theological conflicts between these sects are too prominent to be neglected. Given that Tibetan Buddhism is now the primary faith of the Mongols, I think Tibetan Buddhism deserves a rework in either the Steppe update or the East Asian update.

 

[MinimalPon]

I would be disappointed if All Under Heaven simply interprets every struggle as losing the Mandate of Heaven or making Sekkan system to a mere reskin of the regent system, limited to specific regions without improving the existing systems.

For example, during the 867 start date, the Middle Kingdom’s challenges are primarily about consolidating local and military power back into the central government. While ordinary rebels, natural disasters, eunuchs, and corruption do occur, they are more of a hindrance to the main challenge: the gradual erosion of imperial authority, which ultimately led to the fall of the Tang Dynasty. This collapse paved the way for the rise of nomadic empires like the Liao and, eventually, the Mongols.

While I’ve enjoyed past updates, it often feels like the system doesn’t fully capture the challenges a ruler of that period would have faced. I hope future updates will address this by deepening the mechanics of government, giving court characters greater influence over the realm, reworking vassal contracts and relationships, and refining crown authority systems.