Dev Corner | Thermodynamics

[Metz]

That sounds very solid. However, the problem which is once again blatantly ignored (at least for now, as there has been no mention of it) is logistics. Germany occupying most of Europe theoretically had just enough coal production on controlled territories to keep them all coal supplied; but re-distributing this coal over the areas where it was in short supply was a huge strain for the transport system (source: Wages of Destruction). In HoI4, we have resources "conveniently" teleport over thousands of kilometers for free, and having to move them by water is somehow a negative ingame despite absolutely being a positive IRL. Middle Eastern Oil and Singaporean Rubber are delivered to Berlin via obscure underground pipes no one gets to target or even maintain.

If the real life challenges of coal supply follow this vein and are perverted into making coal artificially rare right across its deposits, that would be a poor game design indeed.

Maybe resources should be shipped the same way weapons are shipped when sold? Having enough resources would take into account your previous month’s surplus. This would make raiding more common for players. For large empires, resources that aren’t connected via land routes should use convoys for internal shipping to the capital.

 

[Live2014]

I love that change and the introduction of energy and coal. Is it possible to get a like+10% buildspeed for civ in the civilian Industry Economy law? that would make it more apealing

 

[ivanpozgaj]

I hope the focus trees will be updated with this new resource, but considering how HOI4 works, I doubt.

This is a big one. Majority of focus trees need rework to take coal into account.

 

[ivanpozgaj]

The way i see it, this is a solution in search of a problem. To make it work, you need to:
- rework the focus trees
- mix and match a bunch of mechanisms (such as refineries)
- figure out how to make dams work in historical way
- figure out how to not screw up small
Countries
Etc etc etc

And for what? Lets remind ourselves of basic issues that havent been resolved in 10 years:
- AI cant use paratroopers
- AI doesnt know how to use frontlines
- AI still ships tons of divisions all around the world for no apparent reason
- AI still cant defend convoys
- AI still doesnt know how to make a good tank or plane or ship
- AI still often produces old equipment after researching new stuff
- navy is still broken

This is a war game. Fix the war before you start messing with the economic system (which s barely functioning as is).

 

[QuinnMallory]

Reserved for Developer replies~

Zwirbaum replies;


Yes, Coal does operate just like other resources - and is a tradable one. As Coal is 'regular resource' it is subject to Excavation technologies, so you can get more Coal out of Coal.

EDIT FOR THE EDIT GOD:

Civilian Nuclear Reactor and Dams do interact with the system.


Those are not shaking hands you were looking for


It is a bit too early to talk about modding, but IIRC you can set in the define which resource is responsible for energy purposes.

This is waaaaaay to eaaarly to talk about modding, but I think technically speaking it is possible, though not sure if it wouldn't run into some potential side effects.


No plans for it at the moment.

Uranium would be a resource that probably does not matter at all until ~1942/1943, and it's importance only increase (or even skyrocket) after that date, making it a resource that is completely ignored for the first half of the game. I'm not a fan of adding a resource that could matter only in some runs.


Right now Dams and Civilian Nuclear Reactors provide a reduction in the energy factories from this state are using. (Local Energy Consumption Modifier), so let's say if the modifier would be -25%, then factories located in such state instead of consuming 100 energy would now consume 75 energy. (Random numbers are random)


Coal is a normally tradable resource.

ATM equal distribution


And here I was sitting and thinking that I run out of ideas of how to name future dev corners. Truly from the depths of my heart, thank you!

Wrongwraith replies;

Currently we are letting Industry in states with Dams or Reactors require less coal.

We will evaluate how it works. There are, as you say, other ways of doing it.

I agree. Why not just have other types of power plants create Energy? Yes, there are things like making steel that, with contemporary technology, could only be done by burning coal. But that's never close to a majority.

 

[Geredis]

How will the new coal resource interact with the synthetic petroleum and synthetic rubber tech trees/buildings? Will we now need to have coal in order to run the synthetic fuel or synthetic rubber, since synthetic fuel was derived from liquified coal, and the synthetic rubber from the polymerization of cracked petroleum, and/or were based on acetylene that was ultimately derived from coal? Or are they still manufacturing synthetics basically from thin air since you explicitly noted "energy" as largely being a stand-in for industrial coal?

And while we're on the subject of fuels...any thoughts on breaking fuel down into petrol, avgas, and heavy fuel oil (marine oil) as distinct resources?

 

[DaReal-BurningDeath]

The way i see it, this is a solution in search of a problem. To make it work, you need to:
- rework the focus trees
- mix and match a bunch of mechanisms (such as refineries)
- figure out how to make dams work in historical way
- figure out how to not screw up small
Countries
Etc etc etc

And for what? Lets remind ourselves of basic issues that havent been resolved in 10 years:
- AI cant use paratroopers
- AI doesnt know how to use frontlines
- AI still ships tons of divisions all around the world for no apparent reason
- AI still cant defend convoys
- AI still doesnt know how to make a good tank or plane or ship
- AI still often produces old equipment after researching new stuff
- navy is still broken

This is a war game. Fix the war before you start messing with the economic system (which s barely functioning as is).

I actually agree. I think coal although interesting and adding some strategic choices it is not a big enough step up to justify the hassle to adjust everything.

 

[FTN_ale]

Since dams seem much more important this update, can we expect more dams added both at the start and buildable? Italy for example was the target of one of the first (even if failed) dam raids, and it has a focus based exactly on building dams (investments in Edison)

 

[Hermerico]

Will coal be stockpilable like fuel? Or work like all the other resources?

 

[QuinnMallory]

As a player since 2016 the game is starting to feel bloated and overwhelming and I do not think it will be as enjoyable to try to manage all of the new resources. Will there be an updated tutorial or something to help out new players or someone like me who is getting turned off by the additional things to manage?

You have a point that some of this stuff is not fun or interesting. We need automatic balancing options for strategic resources for QoL.

 

[BaronNoir]

Would this be the time to separate clearly aluminium plants from bauxite deposits ? (Canada for instance is clearly meant to have aluminium from (it should be noted, massive) hydroplants, while Greece and Netherlands colonies from bauxite.

 

[Zenbeast]

You have a point that some of this stuff is not fun or interesting. We need automatic balancing options for strategic resources for QoL.

I would love expanded game options to allow you to toggle dlc features on and off without having to disable the dlc. Spies, international market, licensing, designers, etc.

 

[Fulmen]

1970s-80s is enough, as you can see, Paraguayans can even dig oil from Chaco

When did they first dig it IRL?

 

[withche.07]

A. Coal map of Turkey in 1940:
View attachment 1326820

The Ereğli–Zonguldak–Amasra–Cide region holds the largest coal reserves in Türkiye and is one of the richest in the country. Thanks to this area, Türkiye ranks among the top 12 countries globally in terms of coal reserves. Coal extraction by Turks in this region dates back to the 1850s. (You can also look to the small maps below the main one.)

Lignite reserves are also found throughout Anatolia, spread across various regions.
View attachment 1326827
"The most significant lignite reserves were developed around 1939 in Tunçbilek/Tavşanlı (Kütahya) and Soma (Manisa).
There were also lignite reserves in Çeltek, Amasya, but these were not exploited until around 1955, which falls outside the timeline.

In 1948, Türkiye's second coal-fired power plant was built in Çatalağzı, Zonguldak:
Çatalağzı power station – Wikipedia
(It's no surprise the state chose to build one of its largest power stations close to the hard coal reserves—and also kickstarted its steel industry in Ereğli, within the same region.)

B.
During the early Republican era, all mining and electricity operations — including coal — were directly managed by the state-owned bank Etibank.
Because of this, I believe the developers should add Etibank as a new Industrial Concern for Turkey.
Etibank – Wikipedia
Etibank in my mod:
View attachment 1326828


C. Another important milestone was the construction of Türkiye’s first coal-powered power station in 1914 at Silahtarağa, Istanbul:
Silahtarağa Power Station – Wikipedia
It remained the main electricity supplier for the entire city until the early 1950s, when Istanbul was finally connected to the Çatalağzı power station in Zonguldak.
Given this historical role, I believe Istanbul should have a modifier or some kind of special bonus to energy production, making it a more strategically valuable state.

I’ve shared information about Turkish coal and electricity developments across Anatolia—hope it helps.
@Zwirbaum
@Wrongwraith

 

[GermanDave]

Inb4 steel quality is introduced. We can funnel other resources like coal towards steel production to get higher quality steal -> better armor.
We have your number Vicky3. Death by a thousand cuts it is.

 

[herr anfsim]

I’m worried about the same things just based on the history implications. The devs seem to have designed a system which somehow makes coal the most important resource on the map, and then plan to put in in very limited quantities all over the map. They are aware this is a game about WW2 right? Coal is probably the most abundant resource in the world at this point in history (at least in comparison to the other resources they include in game like Tungsten or Chromium). And WW2 was literally the period that coal power began to decline and be replaced by Natural Gas and Oil (not to mention up and coming technologies like Nuclear). I’m not saying I’m opposed to coal and power being represented in the game; but representing it in a way where most nations won’t be able to sustain their own power consumption even in peacetime, making military factories functionally more efficient on civilian economy, and making dams (which for some nations, including major powers like Italy, were the primary source of power) provide a slight consumption reduction, makes me question the overall benefit that this system has.

Don’t get me wrong, I want power in the game. I just don’t want power to instantly become the worst mechanic in the game. This feels very unbalanced to say the least, and it feels like they’re addressing the disarmament problem of endgame from the exact opposite direction that they should be. I have to admit, I was initially excited when I first read this Dev diary as I was excited for this new system, but after rereading the dev diary a few times and seeing some of the dev responses explaining how it actually works, I am becoming pessimistic about this system very quickly. Great concept, poor execution.

To me, the fact that power will only be produced by coal and that coal will have no use as fuel for ships or trains, indicate that this is going to be another one of those new mechanics that is added on top of the rest of the game rather than comprehensibly worked into and made a organic part of the game. I think this is a big, and increasing, problem of HOI4, that they keep adding "new stuff" that while keeping the game "fresh" often havent received the resourcing needed to do it properly and is left as another adon-system rather than a comprehensive improvement to how the game funcions.

I think the dams are kind of an interesting illustration, in that they were only added to a few nations, have a limited effect on the game and when the next DLC comes around that could make dams more relevant, that opportunity is not taken.

 

[BaronNoir]

To me, the fact that power will only be produced by coal and that coal will have no use as fuel for ships or trains, indicate that this is going to be another one of those new mechanics that is added on top of the rest of the game rather than comprehensibly worked into and made a organic part of the game. I think this is a big, and increasing, problem of HOI4, that they keep adding "new stuff" that while keeping the game "fresh" often havent received the resourcing needed to do it properly and is left as another adon-system rather than a comprehensive improvement to how the game funcions.

I think the dams are kind of an interesting illustration, in that they were only added to a few nations, have a limited effect on the game and when the next DLC comes around that could make dams more relevant, that opportunity is not taken.

At least for Canada, this is what I was trying to state, hydrodams were quite tied to generating powers for aluminium plants (this is a pet issue for me since release : the game clearly does not make the difference between countries that produced alumimiun itself (that is, they have very hungry for electricity plants to do so) and countries that produce bauxite, the raw material)

 

[DaReal-BurningDeath]

Any chance in the current engine to get multi monitor support? Especially if you are fighting in multiple theaters having one screen being focused on an european front and another one in the pacifc to easily see what is going on everywhere would be really great.

 

[Dauzlee04]

If I could directly post image here I would post wojak coal meme both as a response to the new resource and the mechanics being ass because it would add more unnecessary complexity

 

[ZeDoctor1918]

Core Concept​

What are some of the goals when it comes to adding Coal & Energy, and what do we want to achieve with it?

• We want to introduce a potential soft-limit on the current almost limitless industrial expansion.
• Increase importance on expanding and securing a resource base for your needs.
• Provide a bit more interesting choices when it comes to economic laws, give some incentive for a player to consider ‘demobilize’ at some point during the gameplay, and that War Economy / Total Mobilization is not always the one and the only one right choice.

The way a game typically plays out, how many people actually play any meaningful amount beyond whatever "great war" their campaign crescendos at? Post war content is lacking, and the big war is such a slog that after you look at your newly painted map its typically game over. Shouldn't the aim be making it so players have a harder time mobilizing outside of or *before* the war? (except historical Germany obviously as thats kind of their thing) Given the prevalence of "one and done" mechanics that have been introduced, I don't see the proper time being taken to do a balance pass across every "unique" country, IE has a focus tree, let alone all possibilities with releasables. Needing to balance civilian and military needs before and during a war makes sense as people can only be convinced to take so much punishment before support for any war will slowly start to collapse, I just don't see this as doing that.