• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Corner | Thermodynamics

If you missed the previous Dev Corner, check it out here!


Briefing: Thermodynamics
Author:
@Zwirbaum


Hello everyone!

It has been eight days since the last dev corner, which means it is time for another one. Last time, I was talking about some of the new naval concepts and changes coming to the Hearts of Iron IV. Today I will be talking about the introduction of Coal and Energy into the game. As a casual reminder keep in mind that everything discussed here is in a relatively early stage, and as such is subject to change.I also want to add that not every dev corner will be a long one, and some may end up on a rather short side. But without further ado, let’s keep this lump of coal rolling.

For the first time since the launch of the game we will be adding a new resource to the game, as every other resource, Steel, Rubber, Tungsten, Chromium, Aluminium and Oil were since day 1 in-game (with Oil getting Facelift in Man the Guns to be used for Fuel production instead of equipment production). This resource is Coal - to put it very briefly it will be serving as a ‘fuel’ in the form of Energy for your industry to keep it running efficiently.

Core Concept
What are some of the goals when it comes to adding Coal & Energy, and what do we want to achieve with it?
  • We want to introduce a potential soft-limit on the current almost limitless industrial expansion.
  • Increase importance on expanding and securing a resource base for your needs.
  • Provide a bit more interesting choices when it comes to economic laws, give some incentive for a player to consider ‘demobilize’ at some point during the gameplay, and that War Economy / Total Mobilization is not always the one and the only one right choice.
  • We are not aiming at creating a super complicated or overly complex system for energy/economy model

What is all the fuse about?

dc_thermodynamics_001.png

Sardinia starts with 2 units of Coal at the beginning of the game. As usual, numbers are subject to change, so please do not despair yet.

Base Concept
So the system works like this: Coal is excavated just like every other resource in-game. Each unit of Coal that you have for your own use (so not traded away) will produce a set amount of Energy, which then in turn is used to power up your industry - your civilian, military factories and naval dockyards, which for the ease I’ll be later calling them in this dev corner as ‘factory’. Each Factory, regardless of the type, has the same base Energy demand, so what you are seeing in the top bar as your industry size should also give you a very rough estimate of the demand.


dc_thermodynamics_002.png

This totally mysterious country, that is totally unrelated to Sardinia from the previous screenshot starts with 56 factories, and now has a mysterious bar under the factory count.

Economy of the Scale
However the base Energy demand is not everything, as each Factory you own will also introduce a little extra scaling cost to the demand per factory, so a small, undeveloped minor country will be able to sustain their few factories with a rather small amount of coal, while historically accurate Luxembourg spanning across Eurasia will require much more energy in order to effectively satisfy the ever hungry maw of their Industry.

Lower Mobilization Law is your friend?
Most, if not all, economic laws will also have factory energy consumption modifiers, which will essentially either increase or decrease how much each factory (including the ‘scaled’ portion from ‘size’ of the industry) will demand energy. Higher mobilization laws will have higher energy demand, to represent longer working hours, more shifts etc.

dc_thermodynamics_003.png

Economy Law picker will also now proudly display the energy consumption modifier at the first glance, so that you do not need to scour through the tooltip to find the modifier. Before you start going crazy with guessing what is the second number, it is just the expected amount of consumer goods - the icon is currently placeholderish, as we haven’t adjusted the previous icon yet.

How does it work though?
I will start with a quick reminder how the Civilian, Naval and Military Industry operate in-game currently. Essentially each of the ‘factories’ have a specific base amount of output valued in points that they contribute daily to. (5, 2.5 and 4.5 respectively). And that was further modified by all the technologies, laws, ideas, ministers, national spirits with various ‘Construction Speed’ or ‘Dockyard/Factory outputs’ modifiers. I am not mentioning Production Efficiency, as that was unique to the Military Factories.

So how will that operate in the brave new world? We will now have a base output for each of the industry types - which means that regardless of the energy, you will always have at least this much output from your factories. And there will be ‘fully powered’ output values for the industry. Depending on the energy ratio you are providing, you will end up somewhere on that scale, e.g. If you have 50% energy - you will be getting output that is ‘50%’ way from the base output to the fully powered up. All the previously mentioned Construction Speed, Dockyard/Factory Output modifiers will also be scaled accordingly to the % of the energy you have.

dc_thermodynamics_004.png

This is the current debug display that allows us to see energy demand & consumption, and how much it impacts the industry. In this case we have 26.7% energy needs satisfied, and it means that each of our CICs provide 4.2 IC daily, MIC provides 3.7 IC daily and NIC provides 2.1 IC daily. Of course as usual, reminder that all values are subject to change.

Wrapping Up
And that is all from this dev corner. While this post is one the shorter side, impact from adding this ‘system’ could of course be quite big - however thanks to covering only this one matter, feedback, opinions, suggestions from you dear readers, should be laser-focused and allow us to get a much clearer picture of what you are thinking. Anyways, that is all from me for this week, and next week Thomas will be back with more things to say about the Factions.

Thanks for reading, and until next time, farewell!

/Zwirbaum
 
  • 87Like
  • 35Love
  • 8
  • 8
  • 6
Reactions:
I don't want to sound rude but finally a good interesting devblog that improves things. Graveyard of Empires left a rather sour taste in my mouth and the last devblog was rather faulty in its implementation of a solution (in theory) to the navy problem.
This however is much better and gives the game nuance, pros, cons and reasoning on what to choose regarding what was talked about it.
Nice.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Uranium would be a resource that probably does not matter at all until ~1942/1943, and it's importance only increase (or even skyrocket) after that date, making it a resource that is completely ignored for the first half of the game. I'm not a fan of adding a resource that could matter only in some runs.
Instead of a resource which would only be used in a few things it can be a state modifier that appears in relevant states rich in uranium after researching it

(Czechoslovakia historically had uranium: Mining in uranium mines took place in Jachymov between 1939 and 1964, for nuclear projects of Nazi and Communist facilities. It was proven that the uranium mined here was used in the German nuclear weapons program in their ultimately unsuccessful quest to build a nuclear reactor In times of Nazi occupation and Communism large prison camps were established in the town and around it. Wikipedia for Jachymov ) similar story for the US and Congo mines
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Another joke from paradox, energy are present since hoi 1 and now its a new feature of hoi4 like a loooot another things that doesn't matter when hoi4 was launched.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
Coal right now is pointless resource. Large industrial countries have metric crap tonne of it anyway. Synthetic industry right now doesn't consume it, so what's the point?

A good implantation would have coal consumed directly or in form of energy by synthetic plants. Then, on the economy side, energy should be consumed not by mobilisation laws but by techs. Your factories get more productive, obviously that has to come with extra power demand.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
So basically just nerfing industry? Why? I think it's unnecessary unless there's some kind of flavor, like building projects such as the Hoover Dam.

I think it would be much more interesting to introduce the need to produce resources like ammunition or food to supply the troops.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Sweet! Can I also set tariffs and subsidies to manipulate the coal market to my advantage?
Wrong forum, but Vic3 will now happily serve you :)

What about factories on consumer goods? Do they take up the same amount of power? Or do they use less or no power
I'm pretty sure that the factories on consumer goods will not consume power...as if they would, I don't think it would have the intended effect.

However, what is unclear to me:

How do civilian factories spend for resource trades, international market, spying operations, agency improvements and other expenses fit in the picture? What happens to them, if you have a coal/energy deficit in your economy?

I assume that they will use up power unlike the ones diverted to consumer good production - as they are in the pool of CIVS you can freely use and also could use for buildings. But if it works that way, I wonder how an eventual coal/power shortage is modelled for CIVs used for this purpose: The ones scheduled for construction have less output and work slower that way, but does the extend similarly to e.g. resource trading? What happens if I purchase resources with a single CIV, which has insufficient power and is operating at 70%? Do I need to spend an extra factory for the trade, do I receive less resoruces? Or is the concept of insufficient power ignored for civilian factories used for non-construction purposes? If the latter, then this might have a considerable impact on strategy/balance, as the gives a strong incentive to use factories mainly this way (e.g. for international market purchases or even simpler - getting more coal on the resources market..)
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Do you also plan to introduce iron and copper and a way to produce steel and ammo? would like to see that. Giving Civilian Economy a like+10% civ build speed would make it more attractrive and i would love to see that.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Five minutes after release, the first 'unlimited coal' mod gets uploaded. lol.
 
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
So basically just nerfing industry? Why? I think it's unnecessary unless there's some kind of flavor, like building projects such as the Hoover Dam.

I think it would be much more interesting to introduce the need to produce resources like ammunition or food to supply the troops.
Ehh, right now you can just keep building more mils, with only the resources needed for the equipment as your cost. Now you need to expend something to keep the factories going. This will tamp that factory scaling down.
How do civilian factories spend for resource trades, international market, spying operations, agency improvements and other expenses fit in the picture? What happens to them, if you have a coal/energy deficit in your economy?
Maybe you lose efficiency? Not one for eight, but one for five for example? It scales somehow.
Do you also plan to introduce iron and copper and a way to produce steel and ammo? would like to see that
Strong ups to this. Depends on how moddable this will be.
Five minutes after release, the first 'unlimited coal' mod gets uploaded. lol.
No problem with that. Mods are great.
 
It would be nice if more detailed options were introduced, some choice, in individual battles, showing the terrain, troops on the map, the ability to manually command the strike.

Large cities are also suburbs, districts, spikes, barriers, and bombings should be more detailed, if someone wants to bomb one state, then this is how it should be done.

I hope that in the end there will not be one main source of storage only in the capital, that there will be an interface dividing it, that would be phenomenal, because this is a tragedy, I hope someone smart will figure it out. Moving the capital or storage cities should be set directly from the interface.

For players who want to experience hardcore, there should be unique development trees for e.g. Luxembourg, the Sultanate of Assua. For many players, including me, this game is too easy. Some unusual new options... There is still a lot to do, a lot.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
If you missed the previous Dev Corner, check it out here!


Briefing: Thermodynamics
Author:
@Zwirbaum


Hello everyone!

It has been eight days since the last dev corner, which means it is time for another one. Last time, I was talking about some of the new naval concepts and changes coming to the Hearts of Iron IV. Today I will be talking about the introduction of Coal and Energy into the game. As a casual reminder keep in mind that everything discussed here is in a relatively early stage, and as such is subject to change.I also want to add that not every dev corner will be a long one, and some may end up on a rather short side. But without further ado, let’s keep this lump of coal rolling.

For the first time since the launch of the game we will be adding a new resource to the game, as every other resource, Steel, Rubber, Tungsten, Chromium, Aluminium and Oil were since day 1 in-game (with Oil getting Facelift in Man the Guns to be used for Fuel production instead of equipment production). This resource is Coal - to put it very briefly it will be serving as a ‘fuel’ in the form of Energy for your industry to keep it running efficiently.

Core Concept
What are some of the goals when it comes to adding Coal & Energy, and what do we want to achieve with it?
  • We want to introduce a potential soft-limit on the current almost limitless industrial expansion.
  • Increase importance on expanding and securing a resource base for your needs.
  • Provide a bit more interesting choices when it comes to economic laws, give some incentive for a player to consider ‘demobilize’ at some point during the gameplay, and that War Economy / Total Mobilization is not always the one and the only one right choice.
  • We are not aiming at creating a super complicated or overly complex system for energy/economy model

What is all the fuse about?

View attachment 1324163
Sardinia starts with 2 units of Coal at the beginning of the game. As usual, numbers are subject to change, so please do not despair yet.

Base Concept
So the system works like this: Coal is excavated just like every other resource in-game. Each unit of Coal that you have for your own use (so not traded away) will produce a set amount of Energy, which then in turn is used to power up your industry - your civilian, military factories and naval dockyards, which for the ease I’ll be later calling them in this dev corner as ‘factory’. Each Factory, regardless of the type, has the same base Energy demand, so what you are seeing in the top bar as your industry size should also give you a very rough estimate of the demand.


View attachment 1324164
This totally mysterious country, that is totally unrelated to Sardinia from the previous screenshot starts with 56 factories, and now has a mysterious bar under the factory count.

Economy of the Scale
However the base Energy demand is not everything, as each Factory you own will also introduce a little extra scaling cost to the demand per factory, so a small, undeveloped minor country will be able to sustain their few factories with a rather small amount of coal, while historically accurate Luxembourg spanning across Eurasia will require much more energy in order to effectively satisfy the ever hungry maw of their Industry.

Lower Mobilization Law is your friend?
Most, if not all, economic laws will also have factory energy consumption modifiers, which will essentially either increase or decrease how much each factory (including the ‘scaled’ portion from ‘size’ of the industry) will demand energy. Higher mobilization laws will have higher energy demand, to represent longer working hours, more shifts etc.

View attachment 1324165
Economy Law picker will also now proudly display the energy consumption modifier at the first glance, so that you do not need to scour through the tooltip to find the modifier. Before you start going crazy with guessing what is the second number, it is just the expected amount of consumer goods - the icon is currently placeholderish, as we haven’t adjusted the previous icon yet.

How does it work though?
I will start with a quick reminder how the Civilian, Naval and Military Industry operate in-game currently. Essentially each of the ‘factories’ have a specific base amount of output valued in points that they contribute daily to. (5, 2.5 and 4.5 respectively). And that was further modified by all the technologies, laws, ideas, ministers, national spirits with various ‘Construction Speed’ or ‘Dockyard/Factory outputs’ modifiers. I am not mentioning Production Efficiency, as that was unique to the Military Factories.

So how will that operate in the brave new world? We will now have a base output for each of the industry types - which means that regardless of the energy, you will always have at least this much output from your factories. And there will be ‘fully powered’ output values for the industry. Depending on the energy ratio you are providing, you will end up somewhere on that scale, e.g. If you have 50% energy - you will be getting output that is ‘50%’ way from the base output to the fully powered up. All the previously mentioned Construction Speed, Dockyard/Factory Output modifiers will also be scaled accordingly to the % of the energy you have.

View attachment 1324166
This is the current debug display that allows us to see energy demand & consumption, and how much it impacts the industry. In this case we have 26.7% energy needs satisfied, and it means that each of our CICs provide 4.2 IC daily, MIC provides 3.7 IC daily and NIC provides 2.1 IC daily. Of course as usual, reminder that all values are subject to change.

Wrapping Up
And that is all from this dev corner. While this post is one the shorter side, impact from adding this ‘system’ could of course be quite big - however thanks to covering only this one matter, feedback, opinions, suggestions from you dear readers, should be laser-focused and allow us to get a much clearer picture of what you are thinking. Anyways, that is all from me for this week, and next week Thomas will be back with more things to say about the Factions.

Thanks for reading, and until next time, farewell!

/Zwirbaum
Are we gonna have an event where vandervelde dies and you get Julien Lahaut??? And can yall fix generic fascist Palestine, after last update the grand mufti disappeared And now he’s generic and the flag is still a British Palestinian flag even as a puppet of an axis country
 
Will we ever get the new historical paths and miletery/economy branches for India and hungry like we did with all the other reworked focuse trees in the past? I know that the new Indian focus tree is vary deferent from the old one but can we at least get the new economy/miletery branches?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Why are they keep adding these unnecessary locks? It only makes gameplay more miserable. If you want coal, just go play Vic 3.
Vicky has a lot of goods. HoI doesn't have horses, food... It's extremely simple in this aspect.

Study about war and you will underestand how important resources and logistics are.

Why Operation Fall Blau? Why Operation Chastise? Why did Japan invade Indochina? War is economy.
 
  • 6
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Vicky has a lot of goods. HoI doesn't have horses, food... It's extremely simple in this aspect.

Study about war and you will underestand how important resources and logistics are.

Why Operation Fall Blau? Why Operation Chastise? Why did Japan invade Indochina? War is economy.

"Study", huh? then what's next? Copper is important in war, so let's add copper. Gold was important in war so let's add gold feature. Gunpowder was important so add powder resorce. and ta-da! the vanila game turns into the Black-Ice mod!

I think HoI4's reason of success is simpler and easy-to-play compared to previous series. So players can fully focus on battle and war only. More casual, more players and newbies. But adding these features just makes game more complex and hard to adapt for new players.

Plus, this feature barely gives an advantage for countries. It gives more disadvantages, which only makes gameplay more annoying. Especially for minor nations.

"Realistic" is not always an answer. You said HoI4 is simple. and let us keep in that way.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I am not convinced that coal and energy production will improve the game in a way it is enjoyable. At the moment you build factories and build stuff. Now there is another layer to manage only to get the same result. You already need the resources to build and fuel to use all the things but now there is one more. There is already a lot to manage in the game so energy production will overload you even more. And as other point out also energy production was important also was steel and cooper production so you could add this too. Were would it end? The USA use silver for the wiring of the magnets in the atomic program cause cooper was a strategic resource and the magnet and so the silver would not go anywhere. Should this also be added?
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions: