Dev Diary #125 – The Most Valiant of Them All

[Tuo]

We already have penalties for having things in excess of a limit (domain, vassals, languages...), why not have excess MAA cause penalties of some kind? Give the player an alert when over the limit (like with domain and vassals), and it'd be no less intuitive - you just have more troops than you can manage.

Examples of the kinds of penalties that could apply:
- dramatically increased maintenance cost for the excess troops (not very effective in late game)
- negative modifiers to ALL your MAA, proportional to how much you go over your limits
- negative events, such as the troops causing trouble in a holding, resulting in a negative holding modifier
- desertion

 

[naq29]

The reason I'm concerned that it will remain optimal play is the bonus to regiment sizes that come with having the right Accolade.

The building changes make it more difficult to buff your whole army. Each regiment now needs to be stationed in it's own building to get buffed. That's an awesome change and I was glad to see it. It also led me to believe, as you suggested, that you'll now want to build a mix of buildings to have a nice mix of different unit types, each of which is modestly buffed. Excellent stuff!

Then Hastiluder and Accolades came along and turned that on it's ear. One side effect of each building buffing only one regiment is that you want your regiments to be as big as possible to get the maximum benefit per building. Now, once you get an Accolade that lets you have bigger regiments of one type (and also makes regiments of that unit type more powerful and less expensive), you're incentivized to build only those types of buildings and only those types of regiments (on a 1:1 basis).

Maybe the countering rules have been fixed/modified such that it's better to have diversity even if that means a smaller regiment with less effective troops, but I'm doubtful (hope to be wrong!) Even it it does, though, that just incentives getting a second Accolade in play that gives you increased regiment sizes for a second military unit of a complementary type and dividing your military buildings across these two types. Plus a Hastiluder dude to increase all those regiment sizes even further.

Having bigger MAA regiments is such an overwhelming advantage that I was shocked to see that the Hastiluder trait allow one guy give you a one era advantage over your neighbours. But now with Accolades added in you can be two eras or more ahead of your neighbours.

I'm still hopeful that there are more unannounced changes coming that changes the equations further, but the whole fix to buildings and then undermining that with regiment size bonuses smacks of two different teams working on different aspects of the update, one of who was creating a great fix to a problem that has plagued the game up to now, the other of whom undermined those efforts by throwing shack-wacky bonuses at one of the few parts of the game not previously subjected to odd bonuses.

personally I like that each realm specify on a single regiment type rather than having everything. For example steppe tribals should focus on horse archers rather than pikemen.

 

[Ostermex]

We already have penalties for having things in excess of a limit (domain, vassals, languages...), why not have excess MAA cause penalties of some kind? Give the player an alert when over the limit (like with domain and vassals), and it'd be no less intuitive - you just have more troops than you can manage.

Examples of the kinds of penalties that could apply:
- dramatically increased maintenance cost for the excess troops (not very effective in late game)
- negative modifiers to ALL your MAA, proportional to how much you go over your limits
- negative events, such as the troops causing trouble in a holding, resulting in a negative holding modifier
- desertion

I would honestly love this, tbh

 

[Fizbun]

I feel like basic light cavalry should be "upgradeable" to outriders once those are unlocked.

Currently you have to spend so much to rebuild your retinues. I kinda wish they were more personified, with knights also being able to lead retinues as retinue commanders or some such.

Retinues being treated akin collectible cardgame units is something to think about if retinues get more personification

 

[Arcaël_FR]

I would see Accolades more as a title (like a holy order or religious head title but a landed one), where the title history could be seen and the artifact could be inherited.

 

[davidproxy]

I would see Accolades more as a title (like a holy order or religious head title but a landed one), where the title history could be seen and the artifact could be inherited.

That sounds pretty cool and would add to the immersion if you could see how they ended their days in respect to the title. One knight dies valiantly in the War against the Tyranny of King So-and-So and another in ignominy after being imprisoned 5 times and a third was lifted to Dukedom after saving the life of the King during an attempted coup by a perfidious Regent.

It might also be neat if the Accolade gained prestige or some other modifier over time (maybe if several glorious knights occupied the office) in the same way artifacts do to show that its holder is part of an Ancient and August line of warriors. I know that people are a little worried at this juncture about potential power-creep already but I still think that there should be something to show that people have respect for the Accolade.

 

[neutrondecay]

I read all of this DD, but I honestly didn't understand what Accolade was. Is it a kind of position or a title? I don't understand the concept.

An accolade is an honour and title bestowed on a knight, who thereby becomes an Acclaimed Knight.

I've seen a few people on this thread referring to the actions of an Accolade, when they're actually referring to the accolade's holder, the acclaimed knight.

nd

 

[Baron Bratwurst]

We already have penalties for having things in excess of a limit (domain, vassals, languages...), why not have excess MAA cause penalties of some kind? Give the player an alert when over the limit (like with domain and vassals), and it'd be no less intuitive - you just have more troops than you can manage.

Examples of the kinds of penalties that could apply:
- dramatically increased maintenance cost for the excess troops (not very effective in late game)
- negative modifiers to ALL your MAA, proportional to how much you go over your limits
- negative events, such as the troops causing trouble in a holding, resulting in a negative holding modifier
- desertion

An even simpler solution would be to allow the player/AI to draft MAA up to their maximum MAA limit.

Say, you have 12/8 MAA available. When you draft them, you'll only get 8 units while the other 4 stay in "reserve".

 

[UsAndRufus]

Very, very cool. I think this may be the best DLC yet. This is the kind of flavour and enrichment I'm here for. I can't wait to do a Matilda run and have a stable of glorious knights. Unique titles are . Also, I really like this direction of traits with XP tracks (Hastiluder) and other game concepts with XP (ie Accolade Glory). It really gives a sense of progression. Whilst I don't mind the capacity-style investment in royal courts, it feels a lot more like "set some sliders" rather than a living, organic thing. Hoping to see more progression-style ideas across the game in future DLCs.

I have a few questions about Accolade MaAs:

• Does the related Accolade knight always fight with that MaA?
• If the Accolade knight dies without a successor, does the MaA get downgraded to a regular MaA?

 

[naq29]

We already have penalties for having things in excess of a limit (domain, vassals, languages...), why not have excess MAA cause penalties of some kind? Give the player an alert when over the limit (like with domain and vassals), and it'd be no less intuitive - you just have more troops than you can manage.

Examples of the kinds of penalties that could apply:
- dramatically increased maintenance cost for the excess troops (not very effective in late game)
- negative modifiers to ALL your MAA, proportional to how much you go over your limits
- negative events, such as the troops causing trouble in a holding, resulting in a negative holding modifier
- desertion

or just disable reinforcement until the number of troops under the limit again.

 

[monsieurds]

When player ruler leads the army there should be more events to dive into the action for example, discussion with the knights after the the event gain brave or craven trait.

 

[Mighty Mosculloid]

I'd love an ongoing dilemma where two acclaimed knights start a rivalry and demand to be made your personal champion each time one of them edges ahead in glory.

I'm going to do this myself anyway...

That or have a shining paragon as my champion and a dreaded Black Knight as my executioner. Accolades won't disqualify knights from court positions I hope?

 

[Secondus2]

If an acclaimed knight inherits land, can they keep the accolade as a nickname, even if they have to lose the modifiers? It would be great, especially for the player character, to have that connection to your early life fighting as a valiant knight

 

[Ostermex]

Now that you can't massively stack bonuses and it's dependent on stationing

Yeah but with counter efficiency

Why build a bunch of light cavalry buildings when you could build a healthy variety

Your previous post mention gold being too easy to have in the late game, but between the new and expensive activities and the new balances to buildings intended to address that, I think this will be less of a problem

God, how I wished you were right, and that this patch truly would be a nerf.

Turns out, that was a joke.

The reason I'm concerned that it will remain optimal play is the bonus to regiment sizes that come with having the right Accolade

And you were right on the money with this. This post is the proof.

So in the end we cannot really know how broken, until we experience the new game balance, of this patch, as a whole.

And now we know.

The year in my current save is 1124.

I have been broken for a while, but I didn't take screenshots until it really became outrageous how broken I was.

+8 Archer size from the Knight Accolade that literally never goes below 5th rank.
I could build even more of them, as you can see, but I want sieges to be a joke too, so I don't.

I built the same buildings in all my holdings, so this is the damage for EVERY of my 4 Archers regiment

Countering doesn't matter, as I said.

I take back all that I said, this wasn't a nerf at all.
It's just a change in scaling. My MAA size will grow larger, and I will also get more buildings.

This patch is a joke, balance wise, of course.


P.S.
I don't even have crossbowmen yet., LMAO

 

[TravlingCanuck]

God, how I wished you were right, and that this patch truly would be a nerf.

Turns out, that was a joke.

And you were right on the money with this. This post is the proof.

And now we know.

The year in my current save is 1124.

I have been broken for a while, but I didn't take screenshots until it really became outrageous how broken I was.

+8 Archer size from the Knight Accolade that literally never goes below 5th rank.
I could build even more of them, as you can see, but I want sieges to be a joke too, so I don't.
View attachment 982659
I built the same buildings in all my holdings, so this is the damage for EVERY of my 4 Archers regiment
View attachment 982656

Countering doesn't matter, as I said.
View attachment 982661

I take back all that I said, this wasn't a nerf at all.
It's just a change in scaling. My MAA size will grow larger, and I will also get more buildings.

This patch is a joke, balance wise, of course.


P.S.
I don't even have crossbowmen yet., LMAO

Only 10 of your 11 allowed domains? I can't believe how sub-optimally you're playing.

In thinking about this more, if things like the Knight Accolade and Hastiluder bonuses to MAA size and effectiveness were limited to one MAA unit (you pick the unit), they'd likely be fine. It's applying them to all MAA units of that type that allow things to get out of hand.

 

[Bootymcboots]

God, how I wished you were right, and that this patch truly would be a nerf.

I don't regret acting in good faith and assuming the best of Paradox and I don't think you should take back what you said. We really didn't have enough evidence at that point to be declarative with any certainty. I wasn't declarative one way or the other back then. But now that I've played it I can confirm that every number in the game seems to be inflated.

I'm not even playing particularly optimally, obviously. I'm taking the game naturally and focusing on the activities. I'm honestly somewhat baffled at this release state.

To be positive though, I think the new activities work great and travel is a lot of fun especially when you start planning your own routes. I've been really enjoying the building updates and its been making me put a lot more thought into them. I like being able to make friends through events rather than needing the scheme. I think there is a lot more stuff to do both in peace time and in war and its fun getting to have a taste of it all. The pace of my games has slowed down because there's just so much more to care about.

but it doesn't stop this balance from being absurd.

 

[TravlingCanuck]

To be positive though, I think the new activities work great and travel is a lot of fun especially when you start planning your own routes. I've been really enjoying the building updates and its been making me put a lot more thought into them. I like being able to make friends through events rather than needing the scheme. I think there is a lot more stuff to do both in peace time and in war and its fun getting to have a taste of it all. The pace of my games has slowed down because there's just so much more to care about.

but it doesn't stop this balance from being absurd.

This is my take-away, too. I love the expansion. Peace time is playing much better now. Deciding whether to host or participate in hunts and feasts is much more engaging.

The re-balancing of the military buildings to avoid the constant stacking was another good change. The way it was changed was just at cross-purposes with the way Knight Accolades were being implemented.

All of the MAA size/ability boosts could use a serious re-think in how they're handled. Hastiluder needs multiple whacks from the nerf bat, I'm not sure about the new economic buildings, as I haven't used them enough to have an informed opinion, but gold seems even easier to come by now than previously. Vassals being divided up into different types hasn't caused any noticeable challenge in keeping them all super-happy.

People were concerned that offering new options without adding new challenges (other than the multiple vassal personalities) would make the game easier, but the expansion's balance issues go far beyond that. The bonuses available from the new stuff are, in aggregate, much bigger than those available previously. So it's not just more options to choose from, it's bigger rewards from those choices. Life as a medieval ruler has never been so relaxing and care-free.

Bottom line is the game is more fun, but I hope the dev team gets a handle on the bonus creep before releasing any additional content, and scale back the rewards from Knight Accolades and Tournaments as soon as they can.

 

[Bootymcboots]

The re-balancing of the military buildings to avoid the constant stacking was another good change. The way it was changed was just at cross-purposes with the way Knight Accolades were being implemented.

I think the issue we're going to run into here is that the accolades were a part of the DLC itself. And at least with CK3 paradox has been clear. They don't want to remove content that people paid for. So I'm not sure what tools they have at their disposal to rebalance things if they have to keep things fundamentally the same. You'd either have to nerf them to the point that you might as well get rid of them or use some really forceful coding to make the AI take advantage of it so they match the players.

 

[Ostermex]

This is my take-away, too. I love the expansion. Peace time is playing much better now. Deciding whether to host or participate in hunts and feasts is much more engaging.

The re-balancing of the military buildings to avoid the constant stacking was another good change. The way it was changed was just at cross-purposes with the way Knight Accolades were being implemented.

All of the MAA size/ability boosts could use a serious re-think in how they're handled. Hastiluder needs multiple whacks from the nerf bat, I'm not sure about the new economic buildings, as I haven't used them enough to have an informed opinion, but gold seems even easier to come by now than previously. Vassals being divided up into different types hasn't caused any noticeable challenge in keeping them all super-happy.

People were concerned that offering new options without adding new challenges (other than the multiple vassal personalities) would make the game easier, but the expansion's balance issues go far beyond that. The bonuses available from the new stuff are, in aggregate, much bigger than those available previously. So it's not just more options to choose from, it's bigger rewards from those choices. Life as a medieval ruler has never been so relaxing and care-free.

Bottom line is the game is more fun, but I hope the dev team gets a handle on the bonus creep before releasing any additional content, and scale back the rewards from Knight Accolades and Tournaments as soon as they can.

I think the issue we're going to run into here is that the accolades were a part of the DLC itself. And at least with CK3 paradox has been clear. They don't want to remove content that people paid for. So I'm not sure what tools they have at their disposal to rebalance things if they have to keep things fundamentally the same. You'd either have to nerf them to the point that you might as well get rid of them or use some really forceful coding to make the AI take advantage of it so they match the players.

Well, I got Crossbowmen, and the Knight Accolade for them

And.... uh....

They stack with the Knight Accolade for regular Bowmen....

So I get the MaA size bonus and the damage bonus from both of them

Again, this is a flipping joke of a patch.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

I see a balance patch incoming soon.