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Dev Diary #138 - Persian Delights

Hello and welcome to this development diary about flavor additions to the greater Iran area. That means in this diary you will get a test of many things that, while individually small, aim to increase the overall authenticity and uniqueness in this part of the world.
I will also begin with a shout out to @Vaniljkaka who worked on the first draft of this DD and did a lot of the event and research work for Legacy of Persia.



Historical Flavor

One way to significantly improve the state of the game in a given start date is to look into what unresolved issues were ongoing in a specific location at the time. To a large degree that is the thinking behind the struggle system itself but and as already described in a previous development diary there is now both a new 867 bookmark start, and a struggle called the Iranian Intermezzo to achieve this.

But the struggle alone cannot cover everything that was important for a ruler in medieval Iran in 867 or 1066. We have therefore taken the opportunity to more thoroughly research the starting situation for both starts, adding new rulers, dynasties, rivalries, as well as less politically influential characters such as scholars or artists active in our time period. Existing family trees have also been significantly expanded in many cases and should also now make use of a new set of coat-of-arms using Iranian or Islamic elements.

Additionally, there has been a general go-over of the cultural and religious setup of the entire region, with adjustments here and there aiming to better reflect the political realities of the time.

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The biggest changes are to certain religious groups or sects that were important in 9th century Iran - the Mu’tazila, the Khurramites, the Azariqa. The rebellious, egalitarian Khurramites would be particularly suited for underdog playthroughs though none are landed at the start, whereas the fanatic Azariqa stand ready to unleash a terrifying wave of assassinations, to avenge the Battle of Nahrawan and the many slights they believe that they’ve suffered since. Both these faiths have been given new tenets to portray their unique worldviews. At game start in 867 there is also an ongoing Azariqa rebellion, which you can partake in if you want to attempt to form an Azariqan Caliphate.

An image of the Azariqa faith and its three tenets, highlighting the Fedayeen tenet and its new art

[The Fedayeen tenet is shared by the Azariqa and the Nizari, and allows you to recruit and utilize fearsome assassins - fanatics devoted to slaying the unbelievers.]


An image of the Khurramite faith and some of its counties in 867.

[The rural, rebellious Khurramites are present in pockets all over Iran, though their great rebellions of the mid-9th century have long since been suppressed. Also featured in the screenshot is the new geographic special location of Mount Damavand. One of multiple new special buildings in the update.]


An image of the culture map of the greater Iranian area in 867, showing the new Brahui culture in much of modern Balochistan.

[The cultural map should be largely familiar, with some notable exceptions like 1066 and 867 now having differing setups in the region of Balochistan.]

When it comes to cultures, we have added a number of new cultural traditions, some of which add new gameplay elements such as the Qanat building line (from the Irrigation Experts cultural tradition which replaces Dryland Dwellers) or the new Court Scholar court position (from the new Beacon of Learning tradition) which can be sponsored to unlock new innovations.

An image of three of the Cultural Traditions that Persians have, featuring icons portraying a water wheel, and a scholar looking at an upside-down earth globe - and indeed, medieval Islamic cartography would seem upside-down to us.

[The Persians in particular have been given three new traditions to reflect all the refinement and enlightenment that made them so admired by Arabs and Turks alike.]

For the greater region covered by the update we now also have Jirga (for the Afghan, Baloch and Brahui cultures) which among other things unlock the Tribal Elective Succession form as well as new regional traditions that unlock unique Man-at-Arms types such as the Zupin (Pragmatic Creed) Spearmen or the Tarkhans (Frontier Warriors).

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We are also adding historically inspired decisions and events to the region, with the aim of opening up the same possibilities to rulers in our game that historical rulers of the era would have had. This also means that some previously unlikely historical scenarios are now encouraged, for instance Turkic conquerors in general and the Seljuks in particular are more likely to show up and make a new home for themselves in the Iranian plateau, and as a rising ruler in Iran you have new ways of promoting alternate Islamic faiths in the region that are not as present yet at game start (such as the Maturidi denomination of Sunni Islam or Shia Imamism).

For the Seljuk arrival in the late 900s there is also a game rule to make their entrance more random or to turn it off entirely.
Last but not least the chaotic setup in 867 is now further improved by an early event chain about the Zanj rebellion which should add even more uncertainty and dynamism to an already quite open starting situation.

image 07.png




Viziers

A new type of diarchy coming in Legacy of Persia, viziers were historically many things. They were powerful private landholders, vital linchpins of the civil service, some of the most corrupt people in the world, and extravagantly dramatic party-hosts.

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Mechanically, Viziers may be appointed by duke-tier or higher clan-government characters. Whilst incumbent, they grant you extra tax jurisdictions (scaled to their stewardship) and add a portion of their own tax collector aptitude directly to all of your tax collectors’ aptitudes, providing a powerful direct modifier on how much gold you get per month. How large a portion of aptitude they grant scales with how heavily the Scales of Power are swung towards them, so a more empowered vizier offers both benefits and drawbacks to their liege.

image 09.png


Unlike regents, being a vizier isn’t a prestigious position for a noble — you are, after all, merely a civil servant, and what’s worse one with actual work you’re expected to do — instead, landless courtiers and minor barons from your faith’s dominant gender compete for the post. Having the vizier in your pocket is still desirable, though, so prospective viziers at court will politick behind the scenes, gaining friendships and rivals with other prospective candidates, their liege’s spouses, and their liege’s stay-at-home adult children.

These relations in turn directly contribute to vizier succession score, so a candidate who’s friends with the current vizier will see themselves climb the ranking, whereas one who’s made an enemy of their liege’s spouse will see their score fall. For the same reason, prospective viziers will often learn their liege’s language, seeking to further their prospects for promotion.

As civil servants, viziers don’t have access to quite as many powers as regents. Predominantly they’ll embezzle and try to give negative county modifiers to vassals in exchange for gold, though a complacent liege who lets the Scales creep too far towards their supposedly-loyal vizier will find that they’re still capable of launching coups. Viziers are also usable in the new-ish confidant council position, which allows you to substitute them in instead of your spouse for spousal council tasks (your choice of which, naturally).

Though such functionaries can be fired at any time, removing the vizierate regardless of the status of the Scales of Power, a vizier with high swing is one who’s enmeshed themselves thoroughly, and who cannot be removed completely without consequence. Above a certain Scale swing threshold, firing your vizier will give you a severe negative economic modifier that harms your monthly income. This scales to how much swing the vizier had — so sure, you can fire them at 80+ swing if you like, but don’t think they won’t have arranged a little job security for just such an occasion.

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An easier way to remove civil servants is to kick them upstairs: giving your vizier a county (or, if the Scales are really swung in their favor, a duchy) will also end the vizierate, this time without any economic fallout. Everyone loves a promotion, after all.

Finally, you may recall that I mentioned viziers were legendarily corrupt: though not always strictly true, this was generally the case, and actually a feature of the position rather than a bug. The role of a corrupt vizier was to run the realm’s finances, and it was generally understood that they’d enrich themselves in the process. It was fairly common for viziers to pay significant bribes straight to the liege to get the position — that and to capture and audit the last vizier for undeclared revenue.

The advantage to this for the liege was that, when they needed money in a pinch, rather than have to collect a special tax from the realm as a whole, force powerful vassals and governors to cough up more cash, or individually audit every petty tax collector, there was one person in the realm they could generally guarantee not only had money but had more money than they should have. Minimal overhead, maximum convenience. At least, for the liege.

image 11.png


In-game, we represent this through your vizier’s income and extravagance modifiers. They receive an income from positional corruption proportional to your own income (this doesn’t count towards the embezzlement secret, as it’s technically part of their official remuneration). Every so often, they’ll spend this money on character modifiers for treasure, activities, properties, or charity. Once they have one modifier of each type, they’ll begin again, spending more money on more expensive extra types of each modifier, up to four tiers.

image 12.png


Lieges can then mulct their viziers via interaction, fining them for their excesses. This deletes a rank of the vizier’s extravagance modifiers, liquidating them and transferring gold to the ruler that increases with the tier (and number!) of modifiers liquidated. Naturally, viziers aren’t generally too happy with this, even if the process further enmeshes them as the most important state official, but there’s not much they can do about it other than rebuild their losses. Which, naturally, makes them more attractive to mulct again down the line…

image 13.png


We’ve included about ~160 different modifier descriptions for what viziers are spending their money on, of which about half are explicitly historically attested (comments in the script file for anyone particularly interested in which), and another quarter reasonably probable. The remaining quarter is us trying to keep up with the lavish standards for extravagances set by history’s actual vizierates. These do vary vizier by vizier, so you should see your viziers purchasing extravagance modifiers relevant to their traits and interests.



That was all for this diary! I hope it has given a general idea of the type of flavor content that you can expect in Legacy of Persia, without spoiling all of what there is to discover.
 
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There was a big enough difference between formerly organized Hellenism and Hinduism to justify Hinduism being in a different group from the general paganism.
What difference exactly do you have in mind?
There should be options for Celtic resurgence, from Wales or Cornwall.
There are, they're called "play as a Welsh ruler and move up". (Unless you mean religion, in which case- absolutely not, the data were plainly lost by start dates because druids didn't write down anything they considered important.)
 
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Just wondering, wouldn't the bureaucratic ethos fit the Persian culture, considering the administrative and martial prowess of the Sassanids and the other persian states that came after. Not saying that the ceremonious ethos doesn't fit, but I feel like bureaucratic ethos fits even better.
By the time CK3 begins, the Sassanid Empire has been gone for over 200 years. Any culture is going to change over that length of time. All arguments like this need to be made within the context of 867 and 1066.

Ceremonious works fine for Persian, IMO. They had lots of rules at court and entertained many people from many places. This was a very social culture that had very social governments.
 
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What difference exactly do you have in mind?
I don’t know anything about Hinduism other than the caste system and that apparently they see cows as sacred, but someone more knowledgeable could do a better job on illustrating how Hinduism evolved distinctly from its very distant cousin Hellenism and should be treated differently from them.
 
By the time CK3 begins, the Sassanid Empire has been gone for over 200 years. Any culture is going to change over that length of time. All arguments like this need to be made within the context of 867 and 1066.

Ceremonious works fine for Persian, IMO. They had lots of rules at court and entertained many people from many places. This was a very social culture that had very social governments.
The Persian bureaucracy survived tho
 
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I don’t know anything about Hinduism other than the caste system and that apparently they see cows as sacred, but someone more knowledgeable could do a better job on illustrating how Hinduism evolved distinctly from its very distant cousin Hellenism and should be treated differently from them.
I mean, Asatru also evolved distinctly from its very distant cousin Hellenism, and it is debatable whether Tengri and Indo-European Paganisms are even related historically, but nobody objects to the Pagan religion family there.
 
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I mean, Asatru also evolved distinctly from its very distant cousin Hellenism, and it is debatable whether Tengri and Indo-European Paganisms are even related historically, but nobody objects to the Pagan religion family there.
I see more similarities between Norse paganism and Hellenism than Hellenism and Hinduism. Tengrism and Eastern paganism have no relationship to European paganism, though the concepts are similar.
 
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I see more similarities between Norse paganism and Hellenism than Hellenism and Hinduism. Tengrism and Eastern paganism have no relationship to European paganism, though the concepts are similar.
I'd claim that that's what we have different religions within the religion family for! There is no reason to separate Hinduism and Jainism, and only Hinduism and Jainism, from other paganisms and put them in a separate category. It was wrong in CK2, and it is even worse in CK3 where Zoroastrianism is in the same family.
 
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I'd claim that that's what we have different religions within the religion family for! There is no reason to separate Hinduism and Jainism, and only Hinduism and Jainism, from other paganisms and put them in a separate category. It was wrong in CK2, and it is even worse in CK3 where Zoroastrianism is in the same family.
Here is a link to a article about this topic.


Zoroastrianism is in a weird place where it doesn’t really fit into any category but its own.
 
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There should be options for Celtic resurgence, from Wales or Cornwall.

There’s already a decision that increases culture conversion for Celtic rulers.
 
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There should be options for Celtic resurgence, from Wales or Cornwall.
In 1066, the population of England is about 2 million. The population of Wales is less than 200,000. Even if Wales spawns their own Alexander the Great and somehow conquers all of Britain, that leaves them as a tiny minority attempting to govern a foreign super majority that is 10 times bigger than their own population. Normans invaded England speaking a Romance language and now their descendants speak a Germanic one. The minority gets absorbed into the majority.
 
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In 1066, the population of England is about 2 million. The population of Wales is less than 200,000. Even if Wales spawns their own Alexander the Great and somehow conquers all of Britain, that leaves them as a tiny minority attempting to govern a foreign super majority that is 10 times bigger than their own population. Normans invaded England speaking a Romance language and now their descendants speak a Germanic one. The minority gets absorbed into the majority.
Interestingly, the consensus is that the Angles and Saxons who invaded in the 5th century were a tiny minority, and yet after that conquest it was the conquered majority that shifted languages and became Saxon. You can probably find more examples of it playing out the other way, but history can surprise sometimes.
 
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Interestingly, the consensus is that the Angles and Saxons who invaded in the 5th century were a tiny minority, and yet after that conquest it was the conquered majority that shifted languages and became Saxon. You can probably find more examples of it playing out the other way, but history can surprise sometimes.
Before the arrival of the Saxons, the population of Britain was estimated to be around 4 million. A hundred years after the arrival of the Saxons, the population of the island was estimated to be less than half of that. That's another way of saying that the Saxons' arrival killed millions while a countless number of other people fled. The less than fortunate Celtic women were forced to copulate with these invaders and their consent wasn't sought. It wasn't assimilation via aggressive poetry. The Saxons "assimilated" Britain in the same way that the Mongols "assimilated" central Asia. lol

Here's a nice article if you're interested: https://sciencenordic.com/denmark-f...lo-saxons-were-worse-than-the-vikings/1460824
 
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Before the arrival of the Saxons, the population of Britain was estimated to be around 4 million. A hundred years after the arrival of the Saxons, the population of the island was estimated to be less than half of that. That's another way of saying that the Saxons' arrival killed millions while a countless number of other people fled. The less than fortunate Celtic women were forced to copulate with these invaders and their consent wasn't sought. It wasn't assimilation via aggressive poetry. The Saxons "assimilated" Britain in the same way that the Mongols "assimilated" central Asia. lol

Here's a nice article if you're interested: https://sciencenordic.com/denmark-f...lo-saxons-were-worse-than-the-vikings/1460824
I have to admit I haven't read much about the Saxon colonization in the past 15 years or so, and taking a look now apparently it's an ongoing and contentious debate. I remembered reading DNA studies suggesting that despite the language change, most post-conquest Britons continued to have mostly indigenous DNA. Looks like subsequent studies over time have actually shown more Germanic DNA than the older ones I read about. Thanks, I'm revising my understanding now.
 
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I have to admit I haven't read much about the Saxon colonization in the past 15 years or so, and taking a look now apparently it's an ongoing and contentious debate. I remembered reading DNA studies suggesting that despite the language change, most post-conquest Britons continued to have mostly indigenous DNA. Looks like subsequent studies over time have actually shown more Germanic DNA than the older ones I read about. Thanks, I'm revising my understanding now.
You're not wrong here. The current day English population does have Celtic DNA (meaning that they do have Celtic ancestors) but that ties in to what I said before about Saxon men taking Celtic women by force. The stuff that the Anglo-Saxons did in late Antiquity would have made the worst Serbian war criminals blush. It was that bad.

With that said, we've gone off-topic and this conversation has gotten dark. We should probably move back to talking about Persian things.
 
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Should the tomb of the Biblical prophet Daniel be given a special building? Regardless of whether you think he existed or not, Muslims surely did back then, and I assume do now.
 
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It's a Persia expansion. There must be carpet jokes.
At the very least, the Persia pack could use polo as a tournament event
I think the game could also use a Struggle for Britain. The game starts a year after the Great Heathen Army landed and that conflicted lasted another decade. The Danelaw was established and that lasted a century. 50 years after that Cnut invaded. The last invasion was with Harold Hardrada which was 50 years after Cnut.

In theory the Struggle for Britain could last some 200 years with peace intervals (867-1067 in game terms). The three outcomes would be a Norse-centric England, a Anglo-Saxon England, or an English England (compromise outcome). It should be balanced so that compromise is the default outcome in most cases.

The ticker mechanism would take into account the Norse culture and the Anglo-Saxon culture along with Christianity and Asatru presence throughout the Britain proper. Kicking out the Vikings fully before the struggle is over would give them a 50 year grace period to try to recover a foothold (of at least a duchy title within the Kingdom of England) to continue the struggle.
If there's going to be a Britain struggle, it could either deal with that, or jump ahead to a new start date to a struggle specifically for England, set in the period between the signing of Magna Carta and the Second Barons' War when the concept of Parliament was being hashed out (or bashed out in this case).
 
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Here is a link to a article about this topic.


Zoroastrianism is in a weird place where it doesn’t really fit into any category but its own.
Interesting but not quite convincing, I'd say. We see similar notions of "all gods are really manifestations of one god" in later writings of pagan philosophers elsewhere, but the laypeople clearly believed in different gods (cf. effective paganism in various Orthodox dvoeverie systems, with saints playing the roles of gods).

As for Zoroastrianism, that much is true-ish, but making a "Dualist" religious family for Dualism and Zoroastrianism instead of smashing Dualist under Abrahamic and Zoroastrian under Eastern would arguably be a better choice.
Pretty much every state has a "bureaucracy." The Mongol Empire had the most complex mailing system in the world but that doesn't make Mongol a bureaucratic culture.
That's not what's meant. Norman means, I believe, that Persians were still the one who made the bureaucratic wheels turn after Turkic conquest, Seljuks could not put their own people to do that for a long time.
 
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