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Dev Diary #148 - Administrative Government (Part I)

Greetings Crusaders!

My name is Emil, resident game designer here on Crusader Kings III. Today I’m joined by Chad (@chaddling ), my fellow game designer and comrade in arms when it concerns all things Byzantium, to invite all of you, from the most distant governors of our great empire to the esteemed nobles residing here in the capital, to our first in-depth dev diary for our upcoming Major Expansion Roads to Power.

More specifically, we’ll be going over a brand-new government type: the Administrative Government. All of you who enjoy playing in Byzantium might wanna pay extra attention. I’ll be going into a fair amount of detail in an attempt to give you a clear picture of what to expect, how the new government plays, and what it is not.

Please keep in mind the following:
  • All of the included screenshots show a work in progress and do not necessarily represent the final product, as we are still heavily at work on the expansion itself.
  • This is especially true when it comes to several aspects of the UI, such as layouts and visuals. But that won’t stop us from including screenshots anyway, since we believe that showing what we have right now, even if not final, gives you a much better idea of what you can expect.
  • All values and numbers in these screenshots are subject to balancing and will likely change before release.
  • This is only part 1 (of 2) for the dev diaries on Administrative Government. Some of the things you might be dying to learn about (e.g. how Appointment Succession works) will be covered in part 2!

With that out of the way, let’s get to it!



What is Administrative?

First things first. Administrative (or Admin for short) is a new government type that draws a lot of inspiration specifically from the Byzantine Empire. While Byzantium isn’t the only inspiration, it is by far the most significant. Just like the historical inspiration, an Administrative realm is all about the empire itself. You have the emperor situated neatly at the top, with the many governors and noble families serving underneath. They are all small cogs, part of one big machine. They need each other, just as much as they are competing against one another. Regardless of their motives or actions, they serve the empire first and foremost. For a prosperous realm is much more worthwhile to be in.

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[The Byzantine Empire and its internal structure of Themes (or governorships).]

The emperor is the ultimate authority of the realm. It is the emperor who creates new governorships and appoints the governor of a Theme. The pool of available candidates can be vast, and the emperor will have to consider if they want to appoint that troublesome nephew to keep as much power as possible within his own family, or if a member of another noble family would be a better choice. Having a more competent but docile governor might just be more useful, at least as far as the realm is concerned. Just as the emperor manages the overall structure of the empire, so too does he support and supervise his governors. He can lend them troops if needed, have them go to war on his behalf, and reward them when they are performing well to be in their good graces.

The power of an Administrative realm is very much intended to ebb and flow. When the empire is well managed, it runs smoothly like a well-oiled machine, able to beat down its opponents with ease. When mismanaged, however, it becomes significantly weaker, unable to defend itself against opportunistic conquerors looming on its doorstep.

Expect a playstyle where wars give way to schemes, intrigue, and good old-fashioned politics. Internal wars between vassals are practically non-existent, as your primary way of expanding within the realm will be to make efficient use of schemes and leverage your influence as you jockey for governorships and other influential positions. Governors are unable to create or join independence and dissolution factions, making Administrative realms excel as large and sprawling empires. While they are significantly less likely to collapse or break apart, succession is a much riskier business. Claimants won’t sit idly by while the empire’s fate lies in the hands of an inept emperor.

The Byzantine Empire will play significantly differently from how you are used to playing the game. You would normally gain titles through proven means, such as wars or marriage, but to gain lands and extend your own power in an Administrative realm, you will have to engage in politics. You’ll scheme against your rivals, leverage hooks against your peers, and make use of your influence to sway the emperor to your side.

To reinforce this new playstyle, schemes have been updated to be more engaging, and we have a new scheme type available only within Administrative realms – Political schemes. There are several new schemes of this type, as well as a swath of new interactions, that will help you manage the realm, interact with your liege, your vassals, and your peers. Ultimately, these are all tools with which you can leverage your influence to shape the realm to your will. We’ll go more in depth into these throughout this dev diary.

Byzantium is the main focus of the expansion and will be the only realm that will have Administrative on game start, trading a lot of conventional gameplay in exchange for new and powerful tools, at the cost of increased micromanagement and a less secure succession. Any feudal or clan ruler can strive to surpass Byzantium and attempt to adopt this new government type if they so choose, but more on that later.

Noble Families: The Heart of Admin Realms

Administrative Governments are unique in that they allow for the existence of Noble Families. Every House in an admin realm is a player in the vast political game, whether they hold land at a certain moment or not. All these families are jockeying for power, titles, and even control of the empire itself. As the head of a Noble Family, it is your prerogative to garner power in the form of securing appointments and positions for your house members, improving the family Estate, and undercutting any political rivals that would challenge your name.

Directly owning landed titles on the map is not a requirement for rulers within Administrative realms. If you are appointed to a title and any corresponding counties, you are there to do a job. This is not your personal fiefdom to do as you please. Admin realms should feel like a sort of proto-nation state, as Byzantium can be described during our period. As an admin governor are meant to manage the land and act publicly on behalf of the realm and your liege. That’s not to say you can’t set something aside for yourself, however… It's a tough job managing the realm, after all.

This means that you can quite easily also lose any land you hold, should you be forced to resign, unable to secure the succession, or you may even give it up willingly if you so choose (you might want to put yourself in line for a better theme, for example). Owning land can, in other words, be seen as temporary. You can expect your House members to hold some land most of the time, but there will be times when you won’t. If that happens, you can keep playing as a landless noble within the realm. Should the empire fall, however, you shall fall with it.

While not holding land, you are still a powerful political force and can take a lot of actions to claw your way to power. Unlike the more mobile Adventurers you are still very much a part of your realm, as you cannot simply pick up your things and leave, and you will always retain access to your Estate (more on that later).

Landless nobles are made playable with a new type of title, the Noble Family title. This new title is a duchy-tier title, typically held by the House Head. You can draw comparisons to how Mercenaries or Holy Orders are set up. They exist with a duchy-tier title held by their respective leaders. There is an important caveat to mention here. This means that if you don’t have a Noble Family title, you will be unable to play as a landless noble. You will almost always be playing as the House Head. However, if you find yourself in the extremely rare case that you aren’t, we’ve made the decision to create a cadet-branch much easier for Admin. As the player, you can take this at essentially any time if you aren’t the House Head. Doing so will give you a new Noble Family title, allowing you to keep playing even if you lose your land.

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[Each Administrative House Head has a new title associated with their position.]

Powerful and Dominant Families

Noble Families are sorted into Normal, Powerful, and Dominant families. These designations are based on something called Powerful Family Rating (discussed below) and indicate each family’s level of power within an Admin realm. Think of Powerful Families as a who’s who of the realm. If a Powerful Family manages to become Dominant, they have by-and-large subdued the political milieu of the realm to their will. Should you so desire, you can manipulate and control an admin realm as the head of a Dominant or Powerful Family without ever becoming the Top Liege.

Rather than having individual vassals playing a big role within the realm, it is the different Houses; the most influential of which have a greater impact on the realm at large. Powerful Families remain so regardless of the position of the House Head, who may go from being a governor to landless and back again. With this, we aim to create a sense of stability among the many and frequent vicissitudes of Administrative realms.

Becoming a Powerful Family entitles your House members to several benefits and tools. For example, only members of Powerful Families can use the new Depose and Subsume Governorship Schemes. They get a flat discount to Promoting candidates in the new Succession type (discussed in our next dev diary) and are generally better at Political Schemes. It is also easier for them to be made Co-Emperor, which we’ll discuss in a later dev diary.

Any Powerful Family that is able to also control a significant part of the realm will become a Dominant Family. This happens when they control enough governorships to cover 25% of the realm’s total realm size, so your family must control a fair amount of land in order to become Dominant.

A Dominant Family enjoys all the benefits accorded a Powerful Family, but to a greater degree. They are much more of a problem, or nuisance, for the liege. Once reaching such a position of influence and power, they are difficult to dislodge. They have a much easier time becoming governors for one thing, by significantly reducing the cost of investing in candidates (covered in detail next week) and have a much easier time requesting support from lesser families. Additionally, all members of a dominant family are even better at political schemes than other powerful families.

Every family’s rating also affects how likely the members of a House are to inherit the top liege’s title. E.g. becoming emperor of Byzantium, as a portion of the rating is added to a candidate’s score (discussed below). It will be much easier to compete for the title with a high rating, or to keep it within your family if you are already emperor.

It’s important to note that Administrative realms don't have the concept of powerful vassals like other governments do. You can still have powerful vassals, should you have vassals of other government types, as those will be able to become powerful vassals as per usual. Administrative vassals, however, cannot. This is only relevant in the case where a Feudal or Clan vassal becomes part of an Admin realm.

Powerful Family Rating

There can only be a handful of Powerful Families at any given time – 5 to be exact. The top liege’s House is always considered Powerful, and does not take up one of these 5 spots. Houses are then sorted and ranked according to their rating.

In order to become a Powerful Family, a House needs to have a rating above a certain threshold. This prevents small and seemingly insignificant Houses from becoming Powerful, as they need a certain amount of sway within the realm before they can gain the benefits of being a Powerful Family. When above the minimum threshold, it is the 5 Houses with the highest rating that are considered Powerful.

image-03.jpg

[An example of what the rating of a powerful family may look like.]

There are several factors that have an impact on a family’s rating. We have smaller factors, such as the current number of living House Members, which exists as potential tie breakers if families have a similar rating. Your Estate and the buildings you construct in it also play a central role in your rating. If the Estate is located in the realm capital, you gain yet another small bonus.

Other factors you can actively pursue is being a part of your liege’s council, where every position counts. If you can get other family members onto the council, the rating increases for each councilor. Or you can pick up the Heart of the Family diplomacy perk, which grants a small, but not insignificant bonus. The most important factor, however, is the number of governorships your family holds. Each held governorship adds to a multiplier, increasing the value of all other factors. Which means that for each governorship your family controls, the family rating will increase quite significantly.

Family Attributes

To give each family some additional flavor, they have access to what we call a Family Attribute. It’s a small set of bonuses that apply directly to all House Members, as well as a separate bonus that only applies to their liege.

A family’s attribute is only active if and when they are considered a powerful family. Since there is a limited number of powerful families, the liege won’t be able to stack these modifiers indefinitely. Instead, we hope they serve as an incentive to keep certain families around, making sure they remain a powerful family so that you don’t lose out on the bonus they provide. Dominant families are a bit special. Their House Members get to benefit from their attribute, but the liege will not.

There’s a number of bonuses available, pertaining to different scheme types, improving troops, generating more Influence, and more.

image-04.jpg

[The window in which you can set your Family Attribute, showing the benefits of the Confident Schemers attribute.]

The attributes exist to give the different families some added flavor, to give them some additional identity and character. Not all families are alike, and the attribute symbolizes what they are good at, or perhaps their origin. The AI won’t change these on the fly, so when you are playing as the emperor, you know what bonuses each family provides at all times. As a House Head yourself, you are free to change the attribute at any time. There’s no cost attached. You’ll activate a short cooldown before you can change it again, but that’s it.

All in all, Noble Families are at the heart of Administrative realms. Their members make up the body of ruling characters and they are constantly positioning themselves to grasp more power, station, and influence within the empire at large.

Spheres of Influence

Influence is a brand-new resource, which represents your political capital and the sway you hold within an Administrative realm such as Byzantium. It's about your ability to manipulate others and leverage your political standing in order to achieve a favorable outcome. In many ways, Influence is the tool that will make you successful, and gaining Influence will be key to achieving your goals. Unlike other resources, Influence is hard to come by in great quantities, and it has many varied uses.

It is the lifeblood of an Administrative realm; while a powerful Emperor or high-ranking Governor might be allowed to do what he wishes in theory, the reality is much more complex than that. This resource symbolizes how gracefully someone navigates the politics of the realm, and a truly powerful Emperor will secure their rule and might through clever use of influence - for example, by securing army support or ousting troublesome governors.

image-05.jpg

[The new Influence resource as shown in the top bar.]

image-06.jpg

[Influence has Levels of Influence, just like Prestige and Piety.]

Some Levels of Influence directly affect how well you perform Schemes within the new Political category, making a truly influential character assume the form of a masterful political manipulator.

Gaining Influence

Your monthly Influence gain very much depends on your position within the realm, your skills at manipulation, and your success with schemes. Here are a few examples of what you can gain influence from:

Governor Trait

To track just how much skill characters have after becoming a governor, we’ve implemented a new Governor trait (flavored Strategos here for Byzantium). This trait offers tiered bonuses to monthly influence gain, among other things.
image-07.png


Liege’s Council

Having a seat on the emperor’s council is an easy way to secure some additional influence. Alongside some other bonuses pertaining specifically to the playstyle of an Administrative realm.

image-08.jpg

[Being on your liege’s council grants some significant influence gain each month.]

Governor Duties

Governors in particular have some additional ways of acquiring influence. You are an administrator; first and foremost meant to oversee and manage the land you are appointed to. If you perform your duties well, you’ll be rewarded for it, primarily with influence, but more on this below.

Alliances

Alliances are important for every realm and government type and Administrative is no different. If you manage to secure an alliance with the head of another noble family within the realm, you’ll get influence every month. These stack, so the more alliances you have, the more influence you’ll get.

image-09.jpg

[You gain monthly influence from having alliances with your liege and the heads of other noble families. Do note that the values are currently not formatted correctly.]

Estate Upgrades

The primary building of your Estate offers compounding influence bonuses as it gets upgraded. There are additional internal and external buildings you can construct on your Estate to gain even more influence, like Guest Chambers, for example.
image-10.png

[The Mansion provides a flat +2 influence per month.]

image-11.png

[Guest Chambers provide a +4% bonus to monthly influence at level 2.]

Holding Upgrades

Constructing or holding certain buildings within your holdings also provides influence gains. For example, we have added a new Murex Fisheries building type which can be built around the Mediterranean. It provides additional monthly influence, which increases as you upgrade the building.
image-12.png

[Murex Fisheries Building.]

Spending Influence

Now that we know how to get Influence, the next question naturally becomes: what can we do with it? Plenty, in fact! First and foremost, Influence is a key factor in securing governorships both for yourself and your family members by investing in succession candidates (I'll come back to how this works later), but you will generally use it to climb the political ladder in different ways. For example:

Demand Council Position

Administrative vassals have the option to request a council position by spending influence. It’ll cost you a fair bit of influence, but there are ways to reduce this amount. You also have the option to demand a council position with the use of a hook, which is significantly more cost effective since you will gain some influence once you are on the council.

image-13.jpg

[The interaction to request a council position costs influence and may be refused by your liege.]

Force to Join Faction

Not having to rely solely on hooks, you can force other vassals to join your factions by spending influence. A handy tool when you just need a tiny bit of additional support for your claimant faction, so that you can push your claim for the throne.

image-14.jpg

[Force to Join Faction allows influence to be spent instead of a hook.]

Propose Alliance

When proposing an alliance, you can spend your influence to make the target character more likely to accept.

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[Propose Alliance allows you to spend influence as a means of increasing acceptance.]

Petition Liege

For characters in an Administrative government, the decision to petition your liege costs influence instead of the usual prestige.

image-16.jpg

[The Petition Liege decision from the perspective of a governor.]

Bolster Governance

You can put your influence to good use by aiding and improving your governors, while also granting you some opinion in the process.

image-17.jpg

[The Bolster Governance interaction costs influence to use and improves your governors.]

Estates

We’ve shown you a preview of Estates in a previous dev diary, so you may already know what they look like. If you haven’t seen them though, here is an Estate, located in Constantinople no less, in all of its glory.

image-18.jpg

[An Estate with several buildings constructed and upgraded.]

It took us a while until we settled on the final art style. We went over a few options before we decided upon what you see above, a style inspired by medieval manuscripts. Not only does it look great, but it has a lot of quirkiness to it. Perspectives are slightly off, or people may have odd postures, etc. More or less what you’d expect from actual medieval illustrations.We opted for this art style over reusing the previous style found in the Tournament interface as it feels more flavorful and authentic to the time period, as well as being far more flexible for other locations. The buildings you construct all look different from each other, and there are different backgrounds that are dependent on the local terrain of where your Estate is located. The backgrounds provide a lot of visual variety, but we really wanted to give a better sense of location. If your Estate is placed in mountains, we want the game to reflect that. It gives a much stronger feeling of belonging and immersion. A shout out to the art team for a job well done!

In an Administrative realm, it’s the families of the nobles that really matter, i.e. their Houses. Each House Head will have access to an Estate, which is a representation of the family’s overall wealth and any small tracts of land they may own. While a noble family might not hold any governorships, they are still influential nobles that own a significant amount of real estate. The purpose of the Estate is twofold: It gives you a powerbase you can rely on at all times, acting as your home and the place where your character resides when you don’t have any other titles. Secondly, it exists as a means of progression; one that you can tailor to suit your own needs and playstyle. Estates grants you access to a whole bunch of buildings and upgrades, providing you with various bonuses, unlocking new interactions or decisions, and improving your existing toolbox in various ways. It is, without a doubt, one of the primary sources of increasing your Influence.

image-19.jpg

[The Guard Lodging building and its tooltip, showing the effects.]

Estates can become quite powerful on their own. So they are restricted to one per family, owned and controlled by the House Head. It’s only the House Head that may construct new buildings and upgrade existing ones, similar to how only the Dynasty Head can pick and unlock Dynasty legacies.

One of our primary goals is to provide you with plenty of options as to what you can build, but buildings should also have a certain degree of synergy with each other. As you consider your options and what to build, we want you to be on the lookout for how buildings and upgrades complement each other.

Buildings

There are two distinct types of improvements you can build within your Estate. The first is buildings. You have one building slot dedicated to your villa, or mansion, which is a bit special, as you will always start with this building on at least level one, and you can never demolish it. Aside from your mansion, you have six slots in total in which you can construct whichever available buildings you want. Two of these slots are available from the get go. Then you’ll unlock an additional slot with every level of your mansion. You’ll have two slots on level one, three slots on level two, and so on until you reach the maximum of six slots at level five.

There are plenty of more buildings available than you have slots, so you’ll be forced to choose what you want to build. Buildings can be easily replaced whenever you want though, so you won’t be stuck with anything if you ever change your mind. It won’t cost you anything to replace a building other than the gold it requires to construct the new building.

Your choices won’t end there, however. Some buildings (but not all) have multiple branches where you can choose to specialize your buildings further. Branches often share some effects from the base levels before it splits into separate branches, but will then go on to provide slightly different bonuses revolving around a similar theme.

image-20.jpg

[The Shrine building and its different branches and levels.]

image-21.jpg

[The Storehouse building and its different branches and levels.]

Upgrades

The second type of improvements for Estates are building upgrades. Unlike buildings themselves, these are built inside of existing buildings. For Estates, upgrades are available in the mansion. The mansion has a limited number of upgrade slots available: You’ll have access to two slots from the get go, and you will gain more slots as you upgrade your mansion. When your mansion is brought up to level five, you’ll have no less than ten upgrade slots to fill as you please.

Upgrades can also have branching building paths, but most of the upgrades do not. They also tend to have fewer levels in total compared to buildings. Buildings typically have six levels, but may have less in some cases, while upgrades tend to be closer to four levels.

All of this variation should give you plenty of options throughout the many hundreds of years the game spans.

image-22.jpg

[The upgrades and upgrade slots for your mansion.]

Building Examples

Let’s look at another few examples of what you can build, and what type of effects you can expect.

Your mansion can be upgraded with a library, in which the primary focus is on Learning Lifestyle experience. This particular upgrade has two distinct branches available. One of which ties in nicely is dedicated to education, improving your Tutor Court Position and allowing your children to get a rank five education.

image-23.jpg

[The Education Hall upgrade provides a number of useful bonuses.]

The mansion can also be upgraded with a Wine Room, which in turn is upgraded into a Wine Cellar. The upgrade unlocks a new activity option for feasts, allowing you to spend some gold to gain Influence for every guest attending your feast. Each level unlocks a corresponding level for the activity, allowing you to spend more gold for a larger amount of Influence gained. Feasts are no longer just a means of gaining prestige and opinion, but become a much more central tool as you attempt to gain more and more Influence.

image-24.jpg

[The Wine Room upgrade for the Estate serves as a potential source of generating Influence.]

The Vineyard is another great example. The building provides you with a steady income of gold, which is quite useful already, but the true value comes from also having the Wine Room mentioned above, as it increases the amount of Influence gained when you use the unlocked activity option for feasts.

image-25.jpg

[The Vineyard building, an excellent choice for when you need both gold and additional Influence.]

Modding

As per usual, you can expect Estates to be highly moddable. Changing, removing, or adding buildings is easy to do directly in script. You can add as many levels or branching options as you want. Icon and graphics can easily be adjusted as well, as you set these per building. You can, for example, see how we use unique icons for each building branch in the screenshots above.

Any character modifier works out of the box, and these are applied to the owner of the Estate. For anything more complicated, we’ve enabled the use of parameters, much like those we already have for cultures or faiths.

You can even set up new types, completely separate from the Administrative Estate, to be used however you’d like. We can’t wait to see what all of you can come up with!



That’s it for today! We are not nearly done just yet though, so we’ll be back with Part II next week; we’ll be going more into depth regarding governors, how they work and what they do on a daily basis, how an administrative realm manages its troops, and more!
 
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Yes the political authority of the caliph collapsed following the anarchy of Samarra but how the regional rulers held power in no more clanish or tribal fashion than before and far closer to the Byzantine political regime than feudality.


Please if you dont have anything more than ignorant orientalist take, just keep for yourself.
The authority of the caliph had degraded prior to the anarchy. The Mamluks were able to install their own candidate and depose ones they didn’t like. The anarchy was a symptom of the breakdown, not the cause or start.

Keep your replies respectful. Trollish comments are not acceptable.
 
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In my opinion the retinue system could use a cohort loyalty sub-system like in Imperator. Most of the time the troops will be loyal to their nominal commander. But their loyalty can be changed under the right circumstances. Be it to a pretender, a marshal or someone else who wins them over.
I do think something like this would be so pivotal. It's thematic for the Byzantines since the army could be a political force and generals often made bids for the throne.

But also in general game balance terms, retinues are a) vastly more powerful than levies, b) always inherited in whole by the primary heir, and c) 100% loyal and reliable. This has effects that trivialize a lot of other game systems, from inheritance to factions, and breaking down those 3 pillars of retinue overpoweredness could do a lot for the game.
 
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Why have the estates not been set as actual physical baronies or holdings? The implementation presented completely eliminates any sense of belonging on a map and being a part of a community. Placing estates on the map would grant us so much in terms of immersion. Imagine as an emperor stealing someone's personal holding and granting it to another family. Imagine losing your family holding and having claims so raging internal wars trying to reclaim it. Imagine as a feudal ruler stealing someone's fortified estate and making it into your personal barony...
Because that would require either a changing map (not possible) or to have estates take over barony spaces (which would crowd out temples and cities and lead to a sharp limit in the number of possible noble houses).

I would indeed like there to be costs in shifting around estates and penalties for losing them, but to say that you're "confused and disappointed" by not getting everything you could possibly dream of is a trifle melodramatic. What we're getting is pretty awesome and I look forward to further developments in later patches and DLC.
 
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Would you consider introducing more negative modifier ?

As an example, the education hall update for the mansion gives some great bonuses, such as better education for children, a more skilled physician and a more skilled tutor. But it also reduce the tutor salary. Personnally it would make more sense to me if it increased his salary cost. Since my ruler will employ, let's say, one of the best tutor in the empire, his wage should be higher ?

Otherwise it was one of the best DD to read and I'm very hyped for the DLC !
 
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When there is centralized states, there is also political factions, and Romans famously dealt with factionalism throughout their entire existence.

Will the administrative nations like ERE have established political factions, representing estates or proto political groups like -

- the imperial military, whose shifting loyalty had been a major pillar of Roman politics since the days of Marius and Sulla
- the imperial bureaucracy, consisting of the court, civil service officers and eunuchs and treasurers (in-game court and council), and they sometimes had enough power to overthrow entire dynasties from the throne without lifting a sword
- the provincials, consisting of governors and their local support base and staff (and local militia troops), and could therefore control the economy
- the clergy, whose power fluctuated between "very important" and "who are you and why are you even here" across the times in ERE
- the people - they can be important enough sometimes, representing Merchants, farmers, peasants, artisans etc.

This is not feudal factions, which are often just one-time thing and disband once they have accomplished their task. These ones are always there.

These factions could then -
- have supporters
- help said supporters in regards to their personal ambitions in return, like getting them appointments, money, or win them legal court trials and get them out of jails (trials and law need to be a thing in CK3)
- have entire families be known for backing them for generations (as happened often in Roman history from start to finish)
- provide regents during a regency (and therefore fight over the prospect, as they did across 10th and 11th century)
- attempt to put a candidate favouring them on the throne, a major issue that plagued the Roman Empire throughout its existence

This would be awesome for a restored Rome, or any centralized easter nation, and neatly transition into republics,
 
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Something else popped into my head 5am this morning (thanks CK...) that has me worried about balance.
  1. All Noble Families have Estates, which in this DD was stated that they can become quite powerful bonus sources
  2. House members are still allowed to hold landed titles, like baronies and counties.
So as a player, I guarantee you that within a generation, max, my character and their heirs will have a full domain PLUS an Estate... Please tell me I have misunderstood this and we are not swimming in the opposite direction of trying to reign in Player vs AI disparity.
 
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Something else popped into my head 5am this morning (thanks CK...) that has me worried about balance.
  1. All Noble Families have Estates, which in this DD was stated that they can become quite powerful bonus sources
  2. House members are still allowed to hold landed titles, like baronies and counties.
So as a player, I guarantee you that within a generation, max, my character and their heirs will have a full domain PLUS an Estate... Please tell me I have misunderstood this and we are not swimming in the opposite direction of trying to reign in Player vs AI disparity.
So far, the DD implies that land holding is far more temporary in admin realms. My understanding is that the estate functions like a replacement for the personal desmesne of a fuedal or clan lord.

The DD even says there are times where you might willingly decide to give up your temporary land, so it sounds like it might not always be beneficial to try and sit on one particular governship forever.

EDIT: also, if making cadet branches is even easier in admin realms, it sounds like jockeying for too much power for your relatives might lead to more Houses and thus less direct control over your own dynasty.
 
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Would be cool if in the reworked Schemes we could send Agents through the Map, not too dissimilar of Armies or even Travelling. And if we send the right person, and they manage to reach the target, we get events that may advance the Scheme, make or break it, or even offer new option, maybe co-opt new Agents...

Something to give more dynamic to the schemer gameplay other than click a single button and wait for pop-ups.
 
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So far, the DD implies that land holding is far more temporary in admin realms. My understanding is that the estate functions like a replacement for the personal desmesne of a fuedal or clan lord.

The DD even says there are times where you might willingly decide to give up your temporary land, so it sounds like it might not always be beneficial to try and sit on one particular governship forever.

EDIT: also, if making cadet branches is even easier in admin realms, it sounds like jockeying for too much power for your relatives might lead to more Houses and thus less direct control over your own dynasty.
Even if it is the case that, within an Admin realm, Noble Families can only temporarily hold baronies, it doesn't quite change my worry, because:
  1. The Baronies within Admin realms will still get developed throughout the game, meaning a House Head is still stacking Barony building bonuses with Estate ones while said House Head holds Governorship
  2. Clever players will find ways to conquer, or get through marriage, counties outside of the Admin Realm, or from within Feudal/Clan subsections of an Admin Realm, giving them a hereditary source of bonuses.
One alternative is that any Estate bonus that is not about Influence is repressed while a House Head holds landed titles, that way there is no double dipping. Although I agree that this solution would inherently make developing your Estate while holding Governorship a lot less fun.
 
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since having themes only given you levies, which as has been said, are mostly armed peasants with clubs and pitchforks, would be very disappointing.
Funny you should mention that, since the historic themata (theme soldiers) were actually landholders and professional soldiers, who could afford some of their own equipment, including a horse. Men-at-arms, but on a provincial level.
Their main military activity - if they were on the Roman-Arab border - was defending against Arab raids and raiding the Arabs. Things got so bad for the Arabs that they built a line of forts called thughur.
Will there be a chance for elective governorships for the themes?
I think it's written already that Appointment succession - which themes use - is a type of elective. Check the page 1 dev response if you feel unsure.
Imagine as a feudal ruler stealing someone's fortified estate and making it into your personal barony...
That's handled by regular feudal CBs though. Western Europe ran on different rules compared to the Eastern Med-West Asia region, and as we see in this DD the devs are trying to graft EMWA concepts onto their feudal framework.
I mean I thought it would be self-evident that the estate of the feudal ruler was their domain holdings, but I guess it's not.
- the people - they can be important enough sometimes, representing Merchants, farmers, peasants, artisans etc.
While you covered the wide side, I would like to chime in on the importance of a specific sub-set of people: the demes of Constantinople, who led the acclaiming of new emperors as one of the three traditional rituals for a Roman emperor's rise (coronation, army acclaim, people's acclaim).
Electing a Roman emperor was a process quite democratic (deme-o-cratic, hah hah) for medieval times.
also, if making cadet branches is even easier in admin realms, it sounds like jockeying for too much power for your relatives might lead to more Houses and thus less direct control over your own dynasty.
That sounds pretty Komnenos.
And quite coincidentially ... the DLC adds a new bookmark with a Komnenos on the throne.

Oh, and @Anna_Gein ? Funny you should use the term "orientalist", b/c one of the best supports for my statement on Muslim realms (well, if we could really call those tribes "realms") lies to the west of the Muslim world - the North African Berbers. I would accept reading material on how the Berber tribes were somehow administrative realms though.
 
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Funny you should mention that, since the historic themata (theme soldiers) were actually landholders and professional soldiers, who could afford some of their own equipment, including a horse. Men-at-arms, but on a provincial level.
Their main military activity - if they were on the Roman-Arab border - was defending against Arab raids and raiding the Arabs. Things got so bad for the Arabs that they built a line of forts called thughur.
Some of the troops would be not much more than peasants with pitchforks. Sure, they had some training unlike what a peasant levy would probably have, but they had a hard time scraping together equipment.

I have also heard that the Byzantines defense system against the Arabs inspired the beacons of Gondor from LOTR.
 
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Some of the troops would be not much more than peasants with pitchforks. Sure, they had some training unlike what a peasant levy would probably have, but they had a hard time scraping together equipment.
On the subject of themata, I suggest Anthony Kaldellis' Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood for an overview. It covers the 869 and 1066 bookmarks good enough.
 
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Even though Egypt was only due to breakaway in 867, everything further west was already independent. In Persia, only the lands of the former civilization of Elam were under caliph control. The move to Samarra was an attempt to get away from the problem in Baghdad. But the problems that led to the anarchy happening was breakdown of caliph authority.
 
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If trollish comments are not tolerated, then the other user should be sanctioned for both bigotry and troll.
Chill. Mods might not agree with me, but by my own measure I am not trolling you yet. You just find me annoying b/c I said sth you don't like.
Since the Islamic world was not, as a matter of fact, limited to a few oases, a few mountains and a sand desert.
Yay, misrepresentation.
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On one end, the other, and various degrees in between.
But being the amicable and magnanimous person I am, I forgive you for falsely presenting my statements and trolling me.
In all case, there were influential family who tends to have de facto hereditary post, but it was never the law and it never became Western like feudality.
Feudalism. But you are correct in how Muslim landholding systems never became outright permanent, hereditary contractual systems in the style of feudalism, much less having their government structured around it.
 
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As for how we manage titles. If an admin character inherits a title, that title will become a part of their "domain" if you will, and the ruler will keep being admin, but any vassals that go along with the succession will keep their governments as is. Rulers won't change government automatically. So let's say you inherit a feudal title (which could potentially happen but is very unlikely), the title itself will start using the ruler's new succession law, effectively making it a new theme (or governorship), assuming the tier of the title allows it. Counties won't really be affected by this, since we only treat duchies and kingdoms as "governorships". Only those titles will have access to the new mechanics of being a governor.
In CK2, each kingdom and empire title kept its own succession laws. So if the emperor of the HRE managed to inherit k_france, the title would be inherited through primogeniture/gavelkind while the HRE would be inherited through election and the titles could be split up again (which is realistic).
From what you are describing, is it correct that if a governor in Hellas manages to inherit k_serbia through marriage, then serbia would become a governorship and go "back" to the emperor upon death (which is how I assume succession works in admin realms, I guess it's discussed in next DD)? Because that doesn't sound realistic and I think most player here would agree that it would be better if Serbia was inherited through primo/gavelkind as usual.
 
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Even if it is the case that, within an Admin realm, Noble Families can only temporarily hold baronies, it doesn't quite change my worry, because:
  1. The Baronies within Admin realms will still get developed throughout the game, meaning a House Head is still stacking Barony building bonuses with Estate ones while said House Head holds Governorship
  2. Clever players will find ways to conquer, or get through marriage, counties outside of the Admin Realm, or from within Feudal/Clan subsections of an Admin Realm, giving them a hereditary source of bonuses.
One alternative is that any Estate bonus that is not about Influence is repressed while a House Head holds landed titles, that way there is no double dipping. Although I agree that this solution would inherently make developing your Estate while holding Governorship a lot less fun.
This is where we likely differ in play philosophy, because I’m sitting here like, yeah, of course a player can easily break the system and grab a whole bunch of bonuses no matter the rails that are put up, but why would they? Always playing like that makes the game less fun.

I dunno how much work it will take to grab and keep titles and their holder bonuses. It may be that doing that requires a massive amount of micromanagement, which is fine to do if you want (I’m saying this as someone who likes to burn his head of house hooks to set up marriages for unlanded randos), but could also just be annoying if you’re only interested in bonus stacking.

I also suspect that grabbing fuedal, hereditary titles will come with their own risk — again, losing a branch to another house, or maybe even losing dynasty head more easily to landed House Heads — but even if it didn’t, if I didn’t want to worry about the unbalancing effect of mixing fuedal and admin, I probably wouldn’t do it.
 
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An interesting idea that can tie estates with territory are modifiers. When you own governorships, for a large sum of money (decreasing with higher family power) you can buy estates (with a maximum of 3 in each barony regardless of family ownership) giving a flat income in modifier for each family head and for the barony a flat income reduction (3x max stack), a modifier can stop more acquisition? This makes the loss of imperial territory actually painful, while giving some integration into why your main estate can technically relocate else where. I am honestly just waffling at this point, I can't mod to save a life, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
 
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Byzantium is the main focus of the expansion and will be the only realm that will have Administrative on game start,
What a terrible decision.

It's pretty clear this is going to just be a byzantine mechanic and even worse it introduces so many useful features that we just going to be completely wasted as byzantine uniques.

This is the exact kind of bespoke single use game design I think is terrible for the series.

I majorly regret buying this chapter after the last DLC was so lackluster and now this DLC is quickly shaping up to be everything I don't want it to be and the next DLC is already becoming pretty clearly a half measure based on this DLC. I think I'm done with CK3 DLC for a good long time.

Hopefully i'll be proven wrong.
 
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