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Dev Diary #149 - Administrative Government (Part II)

Salutations! Welcome back as we take another look at all things Byzantium and how our new government, Administrative, works. If you haven’t already, I highly recommend that you first go and read up on our previous Dev Diary and Part 1, posted last week.

As with last week, please keep in mind the following:
  • All of the included screenshots show a work in progress and do not necessarily represent the final product, as we are still heavily at work on the expansion itself.
  • This is especially true when it comes to several aspects of the UI, such as layouts and visuals. We believe that showing what we have right now, even if not final, gives you a much better idea of what you can expect.
  • All values and numbers in these screenshots are subject to balancing and will likely change before release.

Without further ado, let’s begin with a deeper look into governors!


Governors

Governors are the foundation of an Administrative realm. In order to make it easy to both see and inspect all of the governors, we present an overview of the realm in a new interface dedicated to all things revolving around the Administrative Government type. Here you can see who the different governors are, how good they are, which noble family they belong to, and their current line of succession. We want you to be able to get an at-a-glance view of not just the realm at large, but what themes you could potentially attempt to get your hands on and which themes your own noble family already controls. As a vassal, you will even have quick access to some common actions you may take towards the emperor.

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[The administrative UI, showing the theme of Armeniac.]

The first objective of any landless noble is to try and make themselves a governor, as this is one of the best ways to gain further Influence. Governors are the backbone of any Administrative realm, and they have a significant impact on how well the realm performs, which is of key importance to the Emperor in particular.

Any Administrative vassal who holds land alongside a duchy (other than their family title) or kingdom becomes what we refer to as governors. When a character becomes a governor for the first time, they also get the Governor trait. At first, this trait doesn’t offer much value. As you gain trait experience and level it up, however, it starts providing some significant bonuses; especially in regard to the amount of Influence you’ll get, making the trait a great source of Influence gain if you can get it to those higher levels. The rank of the trait can be seen as their overall experience as a governor, and the trait will level up as you perform your duties, handsomely rewarding you for your service towards the empire.

image-02.jpg

[The governor trait at the first level.]

image-03.jpg

[The governor trait at the highest level.]

Unlike vassals of other government types, Administrative governors will normally only hold a single governorship at a time. This limit exists for two reasons.

The first is regarding immersion and logic. If you are appointed as a governor of a province somewhere, you wouldn’t also be appointed to a different province somewhere else. If you were, you would take up your new position and be replaced as governor for your initial province by someone else.

Secondly, we want to encourage the use of family members to a much larger extent for Administrative governments. Once you have secured a governorship for yourself, you’ll have to start making use of your family. Having family members in high places allows for a wider-spreading web of influence. Given that there is a cap on influence investments (which we discuss below), the more family members you have to spend influence supporting your candidates, the more powerful your family may become.

Another limitation is that potential governors always have to be adults. Being a governor is much more a job than inheriting a regular title. If you happen to find yourself in a situation where you don’t have any adult children, you would go back to being a landless noble.

Appointment Succession

Admin realms use a new form of succession called Appointment. In its basic form, every character that is defined as eligible for a title is given a candidate score, which is based on a scripted value. Some characters are not added to the succession list by default but are only added after having received an investment by another character in the realm.

Since Administrative government is primarily modeled on Byzantium, we have created two different forms of this new succession type: Appointment for Governors and Acclamation for the Emperor. The primary differences between these two lies in the calculation of candidate score and the fact that children are only eligible under Acclamation Succession. In other words, children cannot hold governorships, but are permitted to be acclaimed as Emperor. For the rest of this section, we’ll take the succession of Governors as the primary point of discussion since that’s what you’ll encounter most.

For those of you who remember viceroyalties in CK2, you may remember that one of the most significant drawbacks of how they worked was the constant micro of having to hand out the titles again and again. All governors have a new succession law to combat this, named Appointment. This new succession law makes managing your vassals significantly easier and, more importantly, provides the vassals with a whole new level of agency as they have a venue of attempting to seize titles for themselves. An important element when you consider the landless aspect, as you won’t have to sit around waiting and hoping that your liege appoints you as a governor.

In tandem with this newfound agency for Governors, the emperor is also bound up in this rat race of politicking. While the top liege of an admin realm has a few additional tools to make changes to the lay of the realm (as is their lawful right), they must also contend with the bargaining and exchange of favors proffered by Governors and Noble Family Heads.

By default, any eligible family members of the governor will be added to the line of succession for any held governorship, sorted by their candidate score.The score a character gets includes a wide set of factors, such as skills, their relation with the current governor, potential upgrades in the Estate, and much more.

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[You can check the candidate score tooltip for every candidate to see a breakdown of their score.]

The interesting part is that other governors, landless nobles, and even the liege can spend their Influence to invest in the candidacy of other characters. These investments are done per character and per title, and you can invest in characters not already in the line of succession.

image-06.png

[The new interaction to invest in a candidate allows you to spend various amounts of Influence to increase and decrease a character’s Candidate Score for a specific title.]

That said, we do impose an investment cap, which is calculated from a variety of factors, but is primarily based on your House’s Powerful Family Rating. This means that you can only invest up to a certain amount of influence per character, per title, and that is directly proportional to the power of your House. Say you’ve hit the cap, but your candidate still isn’t first in the line of succession. What then? You must convince other Governors and Noble Family Heads to support your candidate, whether through goodwill, bribes, exerting more influence, or the like.

image-07.png

[You may also consider asking other politicking characters in the realm to support your chosen candidates.]

Investing in a character for a title will make them appear in the line of succession, getting their own candidate score, which is increased further by the amount of Influence you choose to invest. So not only can you make yourself, or members of your family, appear in the line of succession of other governorships, but by spending large amounts of Influence, you can even compete to make your candidate appear first in line. Then all you need is for the current governor to have a happy little accident…

That’s a pretty classic CK way of going about it, though. A true Byzantine politicker would go a more political route and force that governor to resign their appointment or use the new Slander scheme to run their reputation into the ground.

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[A new interaction allows you to convince the emperor to force a governor’s resignation.]

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[The new Slander Scheme provides ample opportunity to ruin other characters’ candidate scores.]
[CM Note: We'll talk more about the changes to this particular mechanic in a future dev diary.]


image-10.png

[Choose the precise moment you’re ready to drag your political opponent’s reputation with the new Scheme interface.]
[CM Note: We'll talk more about the changes to this particular mechanic in a future dev diary.]


Since a character can normally only hold a single governorship at a time, they can’t inherit a second one. There are ways to get a second governorship, even if you already have one, but it will be the exception rather than the rule. You’ll have to rely on your family members getting and holding governorships if you want to extend your family’s influence, and spending your Influence to invest in their candidacy for a given title is the primary way of doing so. You won’t be the only one attempting to contest titles, however. You’ll be competing with the other noble families of the realm, all attempting to secure governorships for themselves.

One way for characters to slide into this exception is by scheming to Subsume another Governorship. This new Scheme allows Governors to leverage all their intrigue and influence to secure an additional, neighboring governorship appointment. That said, each title will retain its own line of succession and be granted to different governors upon succession.

Investing in candidates for various titles is going to be one of the primary ways for you to spend and utilize your Influence. That said, there are numerous ways of getting your House members into positions of power; you just have to play your cards right.

Governor Efficiency

All governors have something we call Governor Efficiency. It can be described as how good they are at their job of being a governor. It is a value, set between -50 and +50, and acts as a modifier on the land a governor holds. It translates directly into how much levies or taxes their holdings provide. Let’s say a governor has a -25% Efficiency; the holdings of that governor then provide 25% less taxes and levies.

A governor’s Efficiency is mainly decided by their overall skills. They’ll need a minimum amount of skill points to go above the -50% threshold. When their skills are high enough, every skill point will further increase their Efficiency. Meaning that a highly skilled character will have a much higher efficiency, and therefore also be a much more valuable vassal.

While Efficiency is mainly a measurement of a character’s overall skill, there are a few other factors that greatly impact their total Efficiency. We want a character’s education and experience as a governor to matter. While these traits do provide additional skills (thus increasing their base Efficiency), they also grant a bonus on top of it.

Some of Governor Efficiency’s main factors include the following:
  • The governor’s overall skill
  • The rank of their governor trait
  • Having a rank 4 or 5 education
  • Upgrades in the governor’s Estate
  • The administration type of their governorship
  • Eunuchs have an extra bonus - Making them better than average as governors
  • Mentor in Governance - A scheme where you attempt to improve a governor’s Efficiency

image-11.jpg

[Governor Efficiency as shown for a governor.]

For convenience, we show a character’s Efficiency in the character view if a character is Administrative (regardless of if they are a governor or not) or if they are completely landless. This makes it easy to see the efficiency of existing governors and the potential efficiency of a character you might want to appoint as a governor.

For the Emperor of an Administrative realm, this is handy for deciding who to appoint as Governors (if they have the necessary influence). For Noble Family Heads, this is a good indicator of which family members will perform well and would therefore be good candidates for investment. Sometimes these considerations will (fortunately) overlap, but more often than not, there will be wide-scale political friction amongst those jockeying for the same governorship.

Governor Duties

Let’s circle back to being a governor, and the governor trait specifically. As we mentioned above, you’ll gain trait experience for performing your duties as a governor. This can be done in multiple ways; for example, you are expected to construct buildings in the holdings you control. Whenever a building finishes its construction, you’ll gain some trait experience as well as some minor amounts of Influence.

The primary way of leveling up your governor trait is by solving what we call “governor issues”. These appear on the map, most often in the form of various issues you have to deal with, for you to address as soon as you are able. Perhaps you have a large bandit presence you have to deal with, utilizing your marshal skill, or perhaps you have villagers complaining about an evil presence haunting them, pleading to you for help.

image-12.jpg

[The governor issue Rampant Bandits with the corresponding map marker.]

Most of the governor issues are problems you have to solve in some way, but not all of them are issues. They can appear as opportunities or as rewards for being at the right place at the right time. If you have baronies with farmland terrain present in your governorship, you might enjoy a higher chance to reap the benefits of a bountiful harvest, allowing you to choose what to do with the surplus. Are you the diligent governor who provides for the people, increasing development and granting you some governor trait experience in the process? Perhaps you would rather donate it to charity and gain some piety? Or are you the type of governor to sell it and keep the gold to yourself, losing governor trait experience as a result?

image-13.jpg

[The governor issue Bountiful Harvest lets you choose what to do with the grain produced in your governorship.]

As an aside: you may also notice the colorful new art gracing the title of the event shown above. We’ve added colored banners to all event titles so that they match their relevant icon. This is of course editable in script should you wish to insert custom art in a mod.

Regardless of the situation, the overall format is fairly straightforward. If the issue appears in a barony that isn’t your capital, you’ll usually have to travel there in order to solve it. Once there, some issues will require you to first succeed before you can pick a solution, usually in the form of a skill duel. When successful, or if you don’t have a skill duel to succeed, you are presented with a few different options of how to tackle the issue at hand. These options are typically randomized, but the number of options available depends on the level of your governor trait, giving you a greater selection of options as you gain more experience. Every option offers slightly different rewards. You may gain varying amounts of trait experience, some will offer you some gold or prestige, perhaps your character gets a modifier with some long-term benefit, etc.

image-14.jpg

[The resolution of the governor issue “Titles for Sale” with the potential options you may choose between.]

You will get a governor issue every few years or so. They are not meant to be very frequent, but still be something you get on a somewhat regular basis. The issues you get will, to some extent, reflect your theme and how it's being managed. They offer a unique experience in that it is you, the governor, who has the responsibility to manage the land you are appointed to and solve any issues that may appear, unlike a feudal structure where each subject has to manage their own lands.

Administration Type

Each governorship can have one of several administration types assigned to it. These come in a few different flavors, very much inspired by the different Themes of the Byzantine Empire. There are six types available, all offering bonuses such as increased tax contribution, new CBs, increased Legitimacy for the liege, and more. Each type (other than the default) also has an associated increase to the holder’s Governor Efficiency, but let’s take a look at each of them and see what they do.

Balanced

The Balanced Administration is your default and doesn’t change or add anything drastic, but it’s available to everyone and has no associated drawbacks. The main benefit will be for the governor, who gets increased trait experience, increasing the speed at which they’ll be able to level up their trait.

image-15.jpg

[The Balanced administration type and its associated effects.]

Civilian

A Civilian Administration is all about improving the economy and encouraging overall development. An empire won’t last long without a solid foundation, after all. Here the governor also gains a bonus to their Efficiency based on their stewardship. All of it comes at the cost of reduced military capability, but surely a Theme tucked away safely in the heartlands of Anatolia is in no danger, right?

image-16.jpg

[The Civilian administration type and its associated effects.]

Military

The opposite of a Civilian Administration. Military Administration focuses on troops, by increasing the number of troops you have access to, and keeping the lands safe. Martial is the name of the game, and the governor gets an Efficiency bonus from their own martial skill. The drawback is that you’ll greatly reduce the Theme’s economic output, but you know what they say: the best defense is a good offense.

image-17.jpg

[The Military administration type and its associated effects.]

Frontier

Here is where things start getting interesting. A Frontier Administration can only be used for Themes along the border. It gives the governor some hefty defensive bonuses, to give you a much easier time defending against invasions. It also gives the vassal access to a new CB: Duchy Expansion. This allows the vassal to expand the realm more easily without the emperor having to go to war.

image-18.jpg

[The Frontier administration type and its associated effects.]

Imperial

The Imperial Administration type is inspired by how certain Themes within the Byzantine Empire were considered to have a higher seniority than others. It would lead to a few Themes being seen as more prestigious and more valued compared to other Themes. As such, a Theme under Imperial Administration provides a lot of prestige, and leans more into the influence and political part of an Administrative realm. Only a single theme can have the Imperial Administration.

image-19.jpg

[The Imperial Administration type and its associated effects.]

Naval

Byzantium wouldn’t feel complete without some form of naval-themed, well, Themes. Before you get hopeful for naval combat or naval Men-at-Arms, let me stop you right there: We are not introducing any new naval mechanic with this release.

A Naval Administration can be seen as something in between a civilian and frontier Theme. It gives you some economical advantage by increasing the development growth (portrayed as increased trade and overall naval activity) as well as some military perks. The Governor gains access to the Naval Duchy Expansion CB, alongside bonuses such as reduced embarkation cost and coastal advantage, making it considerably easier to invade other realms across the mediterranean. It goes without saying that the Theme has to be situated on the coast for it to be naval.

image-20.jpg

[The Naval Administration type and its associated effects.]

The emperor is able to change type almost at will with no cost attached. They are in charge after all, and you are telling the governor how they should run the governorship they are appointed to. The governor can request the liege to change it, however. It costs some Influence to do so, and as long as the liege is willing to accept, you can change your administration into whichever available type you want. If you have a hook on your liege, you gain two benefits. You can force the emperor to accept and change your type, even if they would normally refuse, and using a hook also lets you circumvent the Influence cost. Very handy when you have plenty of other things to spend your Influence on.

Imperial Troops

The Byzantine military was primarily made up of organized armies and well-drilled troops, led by highly skilled commanders. They tended to rely more on professional troops and less on levied soldiers, at least during the later centuries of the empire's existence. We are introducing a new system to represent this, one where both governors and the emperor are able to recruit and keep Men-at-Arms for their titles.

Title Men-at-Arms are recruited directly to a held title of duchy tier or above (not including Noble Family titles), and are then raised like any other type of troops. Since they belong to a title, these are not a character’s personal troops that they get to keep upon succession. When you lose a title that has Men-at-Arms, those troops will follow the title itself and be made available to the new holder. In other words, these troops will pass from governor to governor, regardless of who the new governor is.

image-21.jpg

[An army list showing the available troops of your governors.]

These new Men-at-Arms include some obvious advantages for an Administrative realm. The empire's military strength is significantly higher than those of other realms, since the emperor will have access to a lot more Men-at-Arms through his governors. The emperor has the ability to “borrow” armies managed by the governors, effectively taking command of a governor’s Title Troops directly. He can also reassign a governor's army to another governorship, allowing the corresponding governor to use them instead. Taking or reassigning troops can be done by spending Influence. If you as the emperor have the Influence to spare, you can get access to a tremendous amount of Men-at-Arms, allowing you to beat your enemies with ease. Which brings us to the original vision of Administrative realms. When well managed, we want them to perform exceedingly well and be very powerful in comparison to other government types.

The empire has a clear benefit by having access to a much greater pool of Men-at-Arms to draw from when expanding its borders or defending itself against enemies. But it also means that the governors have a lot more punching power. Should they end up in a position where they dislike the emperor or are coerced into joining a claimant faction, civil wars will be frequent and pose a substantial threat!

The Influence cost for taking or reassigning troops varies depending on your situation. The cost is reduced slightly for defensive wars for example, giving you an easier time to defend yourself. When you are fighting offensive wars on the other hand, taking troops from governors who are far away from the frontline will cost you a lot more Influence. This creates a fine balance where you have to consider how you are waging your wars. You’ll have to be mindful of how much Influence you have available, and where the troops are coming from, in order to make the most use of your governor’s armies.

image-22.jpg

[A governor’s army being shown costs a certain amount of Influence to take control of.]

Title Men-at-Arms have two further considerations. They can be stationed just like personal Men-at-Arms. The governor is expected to recruit troops for their theme and station them within the theme's domain. Additionally, Title Men-at-Arms are affected by the Governor Efficiency of the title’s holder. Just as the Efficiency increases or decreases the amount of taxes of a holding, so too will Efficiency affect the stats of a title’s troops. Yes, this does mean that if you have really good governors available, their troops are going to pack quite a punch. A great boon when you can find and appoint highly skilled governors. As long as they are on your side. If they rise up in rebellion against you, you’ll be fighting against significantly better troops. Most governors will, however, generally have a lower Efficiency, and decrease the efficiency of their troops accordingly.

image-23.jpg

[Title Men-at-Arms stats as affected by a governor’s Efficiency.]

To further balance the much larger pool of available Men-at-Arms, we have done several things. The overall limit and regiment size is notably lower for Title Men-at-Arms than it is for Personal Men-at-Arms. As the realm expands, you’ll have more titles and thus also gain more troops. These really add up over time, so limiting how many regiments each title can have makes a lot of sense. Currently, the limit for titles will also not increase with Eras or Innovations, meaning that expanding the realm is the primary way to get more of them. Which meshes well with the idea that an Administrative realm is meant to become a large and sprawling empire. Another balancing factor is that Administrative rulers will have less space for personal Men-at-Arms. Both the regular Men-at-Arms Limit and the Men-at-Arms Size are reduced, allowing them to field less personal troops than other government types. The availability of Title troops makes up for it to a large extent, the focus here is after all less on personal troops and more on providing the empire with efficient armies.

Administrative, as a result of the focus on Men-at-Arms, also has a lot less emphasis on levies. We reduce the overall amount of levies by a flat -50%, making levies largely irrelevant. Remember that a governor's Efficiency may also reduce the amount of levies further, should their Efficiency be below 0.

Imperial Bureaucracy

Administrative realms have a new law, which replaces the regular Crown Authority law, named Imperial Bureaucracy. By and large the effects are quite similar to Crown Authority, but they focus more heavily on the features that make Administrative Government stand out.

A few effects worth mentioning;
  • Vassal titles cannot be inherited outside of the realm starting at level 1.
    • In practice, this prevents them from ever doing so.
  • Higher levels only increase the tax contribution of Admin vassals.
    • Vassals of other government types are unaffected, making them much less valuable.
  • War declarations for non-Administrative vassals are heavily imposed with each consecutive level.
    • At maximum level, they are unable to declare war outright.
  • The highest level reduces the Influence cost for the emperor to take command of a governor’s troops.

Another significant difference is that only the top liege can change the Bureaucracy level. All Administrative vassals will simply follow suit automatically, using whichever level their liege has. Not only will the vassals not have to worry about changing their own laws, but it reinforces the feeling that you are part of something bigger. You don’t set the laws, you follow the laws decided upon those further up the hierarchy.

image-24.jpg

[The tooltip for the second level of Imperial Bureaucracy, about to be adopted as the emperor recently changed to this law.]

Any vassals of other government types will still retain their corresponding Authority law (Crown or Tribal Authority). These work as per usual, where the vassal can change the level independently from what their liege has.

State Faith

With the variance of leadership and governance that occur within Administrative realms, the time has finally come to implement a feature like State Faith. In Administrative realms, the faith of the Top Liege and the faith associated with the empire in general, have been separated.

image-25.png

[The Administrative government UI displays State Faith along with two buttons for decisions to Change or Adopt the faith.]

For example, Byzantium may well see multiple Iconoclast or Bogomolist emperors come and go throughout the years while remaining Orthodox at its core. That’s not to say one of these emperors can’t change the State Faith, which is done through a new decision (though at great cost).

image-26.png

[A new decision allows the emperor to change the State Faith of an Administrative realm.]

This further affects how characters within the realm interact with each other. It’s harder to get characters to convert away from the State Faith, and on the flip-side, much easier to get them to start practicing it. Peer pressure goes a long way here.

image-27.png

[Converting characters away from the State Faith is more difficult.]

State Faith is not tied specifically to Administrative realms. For ease of use in the modding sphere, we’ve tied the functionality of State Faith to a Government Rule in script. Right now, it’s only shown in the UI for Admin realms since that’s the only place we are using it in vanilla at this stage, but modders should feel free to add it to different government types if they so desire. There are basic triggers and effects to accompany it, so it should be fully usable!

I’ll note that this feature wasn’t exactly planned for when we set out to make this DLC, but we added State Faith because it felt wrong not to have it. We think this, along with the other features we have discussed in this dev diary, will help Admin realms feel markedly different and novel compared to established playstyles.

Adopting Administrative

Any feudal or clan ruler will have access to a decision that lets them replace their current government and become Administrative. Note that you have to be an empire already before you can do so. Additionally, you will need to surpass a minimum realm size; an Administrative realm is meant to be a large empire, so adopting it as a tiny ruler makes little sense. You will also need the approval of your powerful vassals, as you won’t be able to perform such a radical reform in your government with at least your most influential vassals supporting you.

It will cost you quite a lot of gold to become an Admin realm, though. The gold cost scales with your realm size, so you’ll want to become administrative before you become too large. No one ever said it would be cheap nor easy to strive towards a more bureaucratic playstyle.

image-28.jpg



Upon taking the decision, the vast majority of your vassals will change governments alongside you. Though not everyone probably will. Your powerful vassals will always change government, since you need their approval. Other vassals are less eager. Vassals of a different faith, for example, will likely not accept, since it is your own faith that will become the new State Faith. And if your empire is fairly vast already, any non-de jure vassals you may have will also not become Administrative. Fortunately, you have tools available to convince these vassals to become a part of your bureaucracy sooner or later. A new character interaction allows you to spend gold in an attempt to make non-Admin vassals adopt your new government type.

Do note that the requirements are still pending, as they may change depending on overall balance and what feels right as you take the decision.

Historical Administrative Realms

Since the content focus of Roads to Power is centered on Byzantium, we have not applied Administrative Government to any other realms on game start by default. We’ll discuss content a bit later on this summer in the dev diary about Byzantine flavor, but suffice it to say that the content for Admin realms is greatly inspired by Byzantium, while not being completely locked to that cultural context.

We know players will be itching to try out Admin in other places. And while they can always convert from Feudal/Clan to Admin (as shown above), we thought it would be fun to add a few historical game rules that set the following realms Government Type as Administrative on game start:
  • Egypt
  • Arabian Empire
  • Ghana
  • Kabulistan
  • Persia
  • Maghreb
  • The Carolingians
  • Tamilakam
  • All Players

To give you a taste of how this will look, feast your eyes on an Administrative Arabian Empire with our lovely new Admin UI panel:

image-29.png

[The Arabian Empire and its internal structure of Governorships.]



And there we go! That should cover the fundamentals of Administrative, our new Government type, and we hope to have given you an idea of how it plays. Join us again next week as we cover the details of our new start date, 1178, and its two associated bookmarks!
 
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It should be stated then that the decision you saw there was work in progress. These diaries are written a little bit in advance and the screenshot did not quite reflect the requirements we have in the game at the time of posting.
For that matter they may still change again, as these things are likely to do during devleopment :)
View attachment 1150747
Note that certain things here may also be a bit variable. The Bureacratic Pillar for instance also makes this available to Kings, but then at a doubled cost.
It also does in fact not convert your entire empire at once. It has a high chance of converting vassals who _like you_ and who are not republican, tribals or bishops. It also converts no one outside of your de jure title area, and no one that is not of your state faith.
If a holder is not converted then _no one_ below them is converted either. It does depend on what your realm looks like beforehand, but it is quite likely you'll have some feudal or clan vassals to handle yourself after the decision is taken still.

The reason crown authority is not a hard requirement is that we don't necessarily want to lock the whole thing to later in the game, though again all the requirements may well change again :)
This is already a great step in the right direction. May I suggest a slight revision of the rule:

  • Realm size of 75+
  • Illustrious Fame
  • Emperor title
  • Powerful Vassals +50 opinion
  • Not currently at war
  • AT LEAST TWO
    • ALL TRUE
      • Culture has Bureaucratic OR Legalist
      • Crown Authority Level 3 has been enacted for at least 50 years
    • Crown Authority Level 4 has been enacted for at least 50 years
    • Development of capital is greater than 40

EDIT:
Can the we please have the opposite be true as well, where an Admin empire can crumble. I can see this being a pretty devastating faction demand to take a realm out of Admin and into Clan/Feudal. This faction can only be created when the above decision's key conditions are not met, so if an Admin empire shrinks too much or is forced into a more decentralised authority.
 
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Themes specifically is the name for duchy-tier governorship inside the Byzantine Empire. That being said, we do allow kingdom-tier governorships as well. For Byzantium, we call these Catepanates. Regardless of rank, these are very similarly, with some differences. For balancing reasons, a kingdom title likely won't have access to Title Men-at-Arms for example.

I know this is accurate and works well for ERE that historically remained confined to regions around Anatolia and Greece, and a few territories outside that.

But in case the empire expands, or recaptures its old territories and becomes large again, it would've definitely switched back to the larger administrative units, similar to ones it had a thousand years before -

ESBdioceses-named.gif



Note - I know you devs are fully aware of the history behind these systems, and I really appreciate it. I am just writing it out to present my argument for kingdom-sized provinces in larger empires. :)

These large province in the map above are definitely kingdom-sized in game terms. It would be tedious otherwise to have to centrally manage so many dukes in such a large empire (it gets bad even in feudal realms, hence why we become empire and create feudal vassal kings). Some, like current version of Egypt in the game, even retain their old Roman-era diocese borders intact in 1066 de-jure at least.

To give context - the old 'classical' Roman Empire at its height was divided into 50+ provinces. During the Crisis of the 3rd Century, it became clear that the system was becoming unwieldy and convoluted, with border governors having too much power. The old legions were grouped into roughly 7-10 'armies' like "Army of the East" in Syria, "Army of Germania" on the Rhine provinces, or "Army of the Danube" in Pannonia and Moesia, defining where the legions were deployed and the frontier they defended.

When Emperor Diocletian put an end to the crisis, he also thoroughly reformed both the administration and military of Rome (this process was finally finished later by Emperor Constantine). He divided Roman Empire into roughly 14 "Dioceses" which were basically large regions, consisting of now multiple small provinces which he had almost reduced to the size of a prefecture/"duchy" in CK3 terms. Rome already had them as informal geopolitical regions since the days of the republic (like Britannia, Gaul, Hispania, Africa, The East, Greece etc.), Diocletian just formalized them and made them actual functional administrative units. They were governed by a Vicar, who directly answered to the Emperor, and had no military control.

1280px-The_Roman_Empire%2C_AD_395.png


Each of the Diocese/Exarchates also each now had their own powerful associated field army (having replaced the old outdated multiple-legions-organized-into-various-armies type system that Romans are most famous for) - the Comitatenses. These were led by a Magister Militum (or marshal) or Strategos in Greek. For example, the army of the Orient diocese was the field army of the Roman Levant (and one of its most important, because obvious reasons). Again, just like Dioceses these 'field armies' already existed with your classic Roman legions, Diocletian just formalized them, improved and reformed their structure to be more 'modern' and flexible, demolished the old 'legions' in all but name, and consolidated the forces into large armies under command of a single Magister Militum, usually one in each Diocese.

To conclude, effectively the late Roman Empire had 14 large Diocese provinces (plus lower Italy), and roughly 10-14 imperial field armies, one for each diocese. Plus border troops which had separate organization and stayed on their frontier, and one or more imperial guard armies based on number of emperors. Very simplified and probably inaccurate description here, but the system was pretty neat and handy.

(we are going to ignore the Praetorian Prefects/Eparchs, extremely senior viceroy-tier officers almost equal in power to the emperors during late antiquity/early middle ages, who ruled over territories that spanned continents by grouping together multiple dioceses and their armies - they serve no real purpose in CK3)
(we are also going to ignore the Limitanei/Akritai, the equally large border guard forces of late Roman empire. Justinian had abolished them to gain manpower, and they are already represented in game by castles and the new Border Province type)

This fits neatly with the duchy -> kingdom -> empire system used by CK3.

If Romans reconquered Syria and Jerusalem in CK3 timeline (as Emperor John I Tzimisces almost did in 10th century) and somehow stabilized their control over the region again, they would likely rebuild both the diocese and its old army there. They would put an Exarch there who would be the governor as well the military commander of the entire Levant again.

If a player restores Rome and conquers England, it would have a kingdom-sized province in England/Anglia/Britannia, rather than 9 different duchies having to be ruled and managed tediously (same problem with other large empires, like Arabia with its many kingdoms and duchies - kingdom units are just better and more accurate for them).

In ERE, this system was still intact at first, with some modifications by Justinian.

Vicars of the Diocese were now called by their Greek equivalent term - Exarchs of the Exarchate, and they now had both civil and military power just like old imperial governors at the height of Rome in the antiquity. This made them able to handle the waves of barbarian invasions and provide enough men to win an almost lost war against the Persian Empire. When Justinian restored Roman rule and order by recapturing Italy and Africa, these two became Exarchates (Italy's two dioceses/exarchates were combined into a single one).

And just like old Rome of the antiquity, giving both civil and military power to the governor made ERE politically unstable whenever an Exarch or became too ambitious or began disobeyed orders to attack/recapture an area, even though it put a stop to empire's territorial collapse.

1280px-4KJUSTINIAN.png


The first 'themes' of ERE were just newly created districts assigned to the surviving remnants of ERE's roughly 7 field armies from the aforementioned dioceses/exarchates - at least 5 of them were deployed in the east during the massive final Roman-Persian War, and got completely stomped by Persian and later Arabian/Slavic/Lombard/Visigothic invasions across all frontiers. As the armies retreated back to Greece and Anatolai, 5 Themes were established as districts tied to those field armies (using borders of old provinces for guidelines). For example - the Anatolikon Theme was originally the district for the Army of the Orient mentioned above, in what once used to be provinces of the Asiana diocese.

Once the situation became clear and everyone realized that Rome was too weakened to recapture its old lands anytime soon, these centuries old imperial armies that had been around since 280s AD were disbanded, and the new Themata-Tagmata military system came into effect. Same happened with the dioceses/exarchates they were tied to, after Arabs conquered Africa and the Pope rebelled in Italy.


Byzantine_Empire_Themata-650.png


After this point in history, the word "Diocese/Exarchate" came to refer to units under Christian priests (like Catholic diocese under archbishops) because the Christian clergy was originally organized on the same hierarchy of administration as their old Roman masters and their administrative dioceses, which had no connection to religion.

After the governors of various themes (in command of their local armies) kept launching coups and rebellions, over the next 3 centuries the emperors kept dividing the theme provinces into smaller and smaller units to cut the number of men their governors had under their control, until you reach the small CK3 "duchies" across ERE in 1066 start date.

1024px-Map_Byzantine_Empire_1045.svg.png


Shortening the provinces had both good and bad effects, but also impacted the effectiveness and loyalty of the army so much that it weakened and collapsed at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 against Turks. And it had to be rebuilt from scratch by the Komnenos dynasty to save ERE once again.

As you can see, if ERE were to become larger again, it would also start putting the large Exarchs/Vicars back in place (or something equivalent of that at least). The Exarchs or their equivalent would be given both civil and military control over their province. And the current systems in the last two dev diaries seem really well made for this.

So yeah, I would love to see kingdom-tier provinces for ERE.

People will inevitably be trying to restore Rome at some point, or create similarly large empires (Caliphate, India, (future) China, Mongolia, HRE etc.) and it only makes sense to have large kingdom-size provinces to prevent tedious gameplay.

TL;DR - Having only duchy-sized provinces gets tedious for larger empires like a restored Rome. Let us create kingdom-sized provinces too, please.
 
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It's time to discuss the elephant in the room (it was mentioned in the last diary) - only heads of houses and dynasties can have landless traveler gameplay. (i.e. very few)

I mentioned this in the comments to the last diary and someone disagreed with me. Perhaps my post was too aggressive, I admit, but the essence of the problem has not changed.

Let's not mention that the description of the add-on on Steam creates the impression that landless gameplay will be added to almost everyone.

I understand that there is a limitation in the form of concern about the processor load. But not in this solution!

At least this decision cuts off cultural traditions that mention and give bonuses to Wanderers (And the combination is simply amazing, so that many characters of such cultures were simply excellent Wanderers and willingly went on adventures)

Also we have the same problem, when the tenth son of the tenth uncle (at the same time he is a representative of the Wanderers culture, and he clearly has an ambitious character) sits in your castle and does nothing - without a chance to become someone famous in his life. This is very noticeably illogical.

Let's try to find a compromise, while there is still time before the release of the DLC - so that rare characters, with a combination of certain cultures, character traits, perks (like the Varangian) could gather their squad, get their ducal title (with all sorts of "buts" and "conditions") and go look for a better life, as a player who is not the head of a house or dynasty. Of course, we should not give such an opportunity to all characters. But setting a condition for the availability of such only to the heads of houses is very bad. Please understand the point of view of the players who see this as a cut-off of how alive the game world is.

Answer yourself the question - how will the game be worse if characters who obviously want to adventure, who are not heads of houses and do not do anything for you at the time of dovre will rarely be able to have landless gameplay. How will this be illogical, how will it be worse than the lack of it? Will it really take 10 years of development and tryhard of the entire department to implement such an opportunity?

If the DLC advertising offer has such a loud promise about landlessness, maybe make it more present in the game. Otherwise, it turns out that the AI is somehow deprived.

Or will this be part of the Wandering Noble DLC?

It will be great if some thoughts and decisions of the developers at this point are written.

Thesis in 1 sentence: Landless gameplay should be not only for the player and heads of houses, such a chance should sometimes appear for some characters without land and titles.
I could be wrong, but I think it’s only landless nobles within an administrative government that are limited to playing as the house head, and even then other family members can participate in it, they’re just not playable. I believe that general adventurer landless gameplay is different, since the devs are adding in the ability to play as any successor that you want, including unlanded ones, and it’s not based around a family estate like administrative families are, which was the main problem with allowing players to be anyone but the house head.
 
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Overall I'm very excited by these changes, and whilst I don't intend to preorder, the new DLC looks very promising indeed. However, I would prefer it if the new administrative government was accompanied by further changes to how governments work, allowing players more granular and modular control over different laws. Whilst feudal vassal contracts and the new governor types fill some of that gap, as do options to alter title inheritance, it's still not really ideal. I can't help but wish for some sort of broader overhaul, akin to the excellent changes made to culture in patch 1.5.

Additionally, whilst I absolutely love the Byzantine flavour of the administrative government type, I still feel like there are some missed opportunities for other realms that don't really fit with existing feudal mechanics. While the optional game rules provide a stopgap solution, it has been almost four years since CK3 was released and many historical government types, like the iqta system, still have to make do with basic feudal mechanics that are primarily intended to model medieval Europe. I really do think that either administrative governments should be used more widely for other realms aside from the Byzantine Empire, or else there needs to be a major push towards developing more government types to fill the gap.

Of course, it is entirely possible that the dev team do intend to do something like this in future updates and DLC, perhaps focused on the Abbasid and Umayyad Caliphates or a Chinese map expansion. However, if that is the case, then I really think the dev team need to do a better job at communicating what they plan for the future. Whilst the more detailed dev diaries are definitely a big step in the right direction, I think that some sort of roadmap for development (including plans for new mechanics and features, overhauls to existing ones, map expansions, new start dates etc.) would be an excellent idea.

Obviously such plans would be tentative and subject to change, particularly for more distant objectives, but I really think it would help to reassure the community and build more trust and enthusiasm. Community feedback would also help to further focus development in areas that players consider the greatest priorities.
 
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Actually only for the Armenians in the Abassids — easy enough to add if there's requests.
A bit off topic, but I hope the Armenians now use the Kingdom of Armenia title rather than the titular title they use now. If find the titular title causes weird succession issues with partition. And the fact they aren't de jure a king yet could be handled through custom localization and/or events
 
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Honestly? I think it'd make the most sense if, when going from Feudal/Clan to Admin, it started out solely as a thing in your own personal domain and the domain of close relatives who like you, with further expansions of the administrative system requiring an interaction that's essentially a lighter version of Title Revocation, because that's what it is, in a very real sense. Meanwhile, a Tribal to Admin transition could be done for the entire realm due to the much more fluid nature of tribal societies, but also have much steeper requirements than Feudal or Clan, such as Living Legend & stuff.
 
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It should be stated then that the decision you saw there was work in progress. These diaries are written a little bit in advance and the screenshot did not quite reflect the requirements we have in the game at the time of posting.
For that matter they may still change again, as these things are likely to do during devleopment :)
View attachment 1150747
Note that certain things here may also be a bit variable. The Bureacratic Pillar for instance also makes this available to Kings, but then at a doubled cost.
It also does in fact not convert your entire empire at once. It has a high chance of converting vassals who _like you_ and who are not republican, tribals or bishops. It also converts no one outside of your de jure title area, and no one that is not of your state faith.
If a holder is not converted then _no one_ below them is converted either. It does depend on what your realm looks like beforehand, but it is quite likely you'll have some feudal or clan vassals to handle yourself after the decision is taken still.

The reason crown authority is not a hard requirement is that we don't necessarily want to lock the whole thing to later in the game, though again all the requirements may well change again :)

Thank you for the response! I knew the presented material was WIP and I'm happy you are thinking two steps ahead of me and have already addressed my main concerns before I even posted them here.

I understand you don't want to lock this decision to too late in the game, but I still think it would be best to be locked behind Absolute Authority. High and Absolute Crown Authority laws are not super late game stuff, they are unlocked by an Innovation from the Early Medieval Era, an Era that technically begins in the year 900. I would at the very least suggest to make High Crown Authority an obligatory requirement, like in this suggestion here:
This is already a great step in the right direction. May I suggest a slight revision of the rule:

  • Realm size of 75+
  • Illustrious Fame
  • Emperor title
  • Powerful Vassals +50 opinion
  • Not currently at war
  • AT LEAST TWO
    • ALL TRUE
      • Culture has Bureaucratic OR Legalist
      • Crown Authority Level 3 has been enacted for at least 50 years
    • Crown Authority Level 4 has been enacted for at least 50 years
    • Development of capital is greater than 40

EDIT:
Can the we please have the opposite be true as well, where an Admin empire can crumble. I can see this being a pretty devastating faction demand to take a realm out of Admin and into Clan/Feudal. This faction can only be created when the above decision's key conditions are not met, so if an Admin empire shrinks too much or is forced into a more decentralised authority.

And in any case, maybe the decision should be something available later in the game - not locked behind the year 1300 of course, but significantly beyond the year 900 at least. If a player wants to start out as an Administrative Realm from the get-go they can just play as the Byzantines, or pick one of the realms that can be made Administrative with a game rule, or even play around with console commands if they want to try something truly crazy. Historically, much of the world downright failed to get past feudalism in the game's timeframe, so it makes sense that it would take at least year 1000+ for it to be on the table for France or the HRE, even for an experienced player.

I also understand that it is not the entire Realm that becomes Administrative at once, only De Jure vassals who both like you and share your faith do, but I still think this is too much at once. And also it won't be too hard to get your entire Realm to fit this bill if you form an Empire restricted to it's De Jure borders and focus heavily on making all your vassals like you by raising Level of Fame, hosting Events and pursuing Diplomacy lifestyle before taking the Decision. The Dev Diary explicitly says that "the vast majority of your vassals will change governments alongside you" and I think this is too unbalanced in one direction, my suggestion is that you guys tip the scale some more on the other direction - even if only making Powerful Vassals, distant vassals and vassals with Title Revocation: Protected contract remain feudal/clan would be great and would make the experience more immersive, challenging and rewarding.

I imagine that you don't want an Administrative Realm with few to none Administrative vassals around to end up happening, as that would defeat the entire point of most of this government's unique mechanics, but I'm not asking for something so extreme - I just think "the vast majority of your vassals" turning Administrative is overdoing it and some balancing in the other direction is required. Maybe you could make vassal personality and stance play into it: Courtly vassals or vassals who are content won't mind the change, meanwhile parochial vassals won't like these weird bureaucrats trying to take their place, and glory hound vassals would be furious at the whole ordeal.

If you also fear that having too many remaining feudal/clan vassals might be annoying (having to convert them to Administrative one by one might get tedious, I suppose), you could add an "Abolish the remnants of Feudalism" decision for higher Administrative Authority Realms that essentially tries to force all remaining clan/feudal vassals to Administrative at once, whereupon they would immediately form a Liberty Faction against you, and if they have enough strenght to revolt they will, if they don't have enough strenght to revolt they would just submit. This way you would only need to force some key vassals into Administrative, and once you feel like you have the definitive upper hand against them and can take them all in a fight, you can end this process quickly.

But all in all, thank you again for the response and for being quick to address our feedback! These two DD's have been very great and I can't wait to read more of them, and I absolutely can't wait to play with Administrative governments myself.

This is a rather common misconception, but saying that the Romans "adopted more feudal ways over time" as if the Romans became a quasi-feudal realm is entirely ignoring the fact emperors of the last Roman dynasty - the Palaiologoi - could still revoke governor appointments and court positions at will.
They did grow weak, but it was more due to losing land from invasions than decentralization.

A big reason being the HRE ran without an emperor for ~20 years, a problem for real-life elective monarchies that don't exist in CK.

Fully agree.

I overstated my case here, yes. The ERE did not ever become truly feudal and remained a centralized State until Constantinople fell, but it did adopt a few specific feudalistic practices over time as its resources depleted. Namely, it gave away some fiscal rights to landed nobility in the form of Pronoias (which were not feudal fiefs, of couse, but were a step towards decentralizing power) and later in the Palailogos dynasty the Pronoia rights started becoming hereditary. The ERE was never a feudal society, but did see the landed nobility entrench its power and the central administration lose some control of things as the Empire's resources dwindled and it was forced to make these trade-offs.

Not quite on board with that one. Administrative Empires are supposed to sprawl a bit, which means including some frontiers that might not be well-developed and will drag down the average.

I thought this might be an annoying condition to reach, yes, my intention with this idea was to give a buff to Realms with plenty of Bureaucratic culture counties. If an average Development condition were added maybe it could be limited to De Jure lands only or even the De Jure Kingdom where your capital is located in only, but I suppose a Development requirement on the capital alone is sufficient.
 
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Will governors automatically try to convert everything to the state faith? Is there a way to stop them?

It would be pretty lame if we lost the ability to have multi-faith empires while running admin government.
 
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It should be stated then that the decision you saw there was work in progress. These diaries are written a little bit in advance and the screenshot did not quite reflect the requirements we have in the game at the time of posting.
For that matter they may still change again, as these things are likely to do during devleopment :)
View attachment 1150747
Note that certain things here may also be a bit variable. The Bureacratic Pillar for instance also makes this available to Kings, but then at a doubled cost.
It also does in fact not convert your entire empire at once. It has a high chance of converting vassals who _like you_ and who are not republican, tribals or bishops. It also converts no one outside of your de jure title area, and no one that is not of your state faith.
If a holder is not converted then _no one_ below them is converted either. It does depend on what your realm looks like beforehand, but it is quite likely you'll have some feudal or clan vassals to handle yourself after the decision is taken still.

The reason crown authority is not a hard requirement is that we don't necessarily want to lock the whole thing to later in the game, though again all the requirements may well change again :)
Do Han, Khitan, Qiang, and Tangut has those Cultural Pillar and Tradition? Also please make Guiyi, Great Liao and Western Xia administrative.
 
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I'm extremely excited for, what looks like, the new scheme system. I am curious how they've reworked it and if that means some of the other systems/mechanics have been reworked to feel more meaningful. Specifically, I mean house feuds and rivalries. The former because the dev diaries said that they wanted to limit land/positions held to make the gameplay more about the various Houses and securing positions for your family so it would make sense that they work on improving inter-house relations and feuds as well. I would imagine they'd work on improving feuds for the same reason. If the player is going to be slandering other characters (rather than immediately rushing to murder them) I'd think that maybe rivalries would get a second look. Perhaps it'll be harder to kill someone that you have a rivalry with? However, I have no evidence that either of the two systems are being changed.

In the second picture, it looks like the highest success rate for a scheme is 92%. That seems pretty decent to me. After all - you can't account for all scenarios and the best planned schemes should still have a decent chance of going wrong.

It looks like Secrecy might be harder to come by too and maybe the new agent positions that you fill will have trade-offs between secrecy and chance for success. A Gabbler might give your scheme a higher chance of success but because of their big-mouthed nature, they might drastically tank the secrecy of the scheme and you have to choose which is more important to you.

I'm not sure what to make of opportunities or how they fit into the scheme. My first inclination would be that they're opportunities for you to complete the scheme. So say the character likes to drink, that's an opportunity for your plotters to lead the character to a room and wall them up. But the second picture makes me doubt that. Why would you go with 'Seize the moment' with a 2 opportunity cost versus 'Cover every Angle' for 10? Are opportunities something that are collected only during the scheme process and then lost when it succeeds or fails? Or do you send you have to look for them with your spymaster, completely outside of the scheme, and then you leverage them when it comes time to do something? Very interesting stuff!

Grace as a new metric seems interesting too. I originally thought it meant a grace period that you could back out of the scheme before you were locked in but the door icon makes me think that this is more likely meant to be read as "You have 12 months before the door shuts and the scheme ends as a failure."


Regardless, I am impressed with everything that I've seen so far. My only regret is how far away september is!





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I really like the expansion on Schemes.
Although I still think the idea of moving Agents on the Map, to either 'ambush' targets on the road, make traps on their holdings, create info networks, etc. (a bit like Civ and Total War does it, but better). Maybe it's asking for too much.

And I do hope we get to also create House friendships, bonds, and rivalries; not just individually. Either praising or slandering them.
Getting into spin-doctoring, damage control, quid pro quo, vote buying, selling offices, and having public debates would all be interesting politicking to get into!
 
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My only complaint is I wish you'd stop hedging your bets and moving stuff behind game rules. Either have admin government type where appropriate (e.g. Abbasids) or don't; I really don't like this "we're not sure or we can't be bothered to fine-tune it properly" so just chucking stuff behind game rules. It's lazy and unintuitive.

"I want to be unable to customize my experience!"

Silliest complaint in the history of the forum.
 
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"I want to be unable to customize my experience!"

Silliest complaint in the history of the forum.
Also the community managers not wanting to have to referee a dozen different arguments about why Abbasids/Carolingians/etc. should or shouldn't be Administrative.
 
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+50 opinion is easy to gain and opinion as a resource is not suited well for such decisions. You can execute your vassal's entire family and then give him 100 gold, couple of duchies and a kingdom and have +100 opinion.
And term "powerful vassal" implies that such vassals will suffer the most and that they are able to stand on their own even with their army of 600 levies against your 10k professionals. I'm not sure if they would be happy to give up their ancestral lands, castles, thousands of peasants, private troops and high chance of becoming an emperor with "Meritocracy" perk just to get couple of villas and 100 servants even with +100 opinion.

Instead of having +50 opinion with powerful vassals we could have a transition period and divide all vassals into supporters, opposition, uncertain, opportunists and other factions. Supporters must overpower opposition to take the decision, uncertain will decide randomly on taking the decision, opportunists will join whoever they think can give them more benefits. Vassals can switch factions depending on various factors (not only opinion) during the transition period.
This could be implemented by creating several lists (add_to_variable_list) and attaching them to top liege or creating new entity type to hold different lists.

I remember one of the big total conversion mods having a decision to unite several kingdoms and you have to overpower your vassals by 200%. Or something like that, I don't remember exactly. But players sometimes spend all their gold on mercenaries to match requirements.
 
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