Dev Diary #155 - The Shattered Empire

[Gurkhal]

So, is that a commitment to adding the Hussites?

I am not a fan of adding more in game LARPing. If you are going to let us LARP as Greco Roman pagans in game, you might as well let us LARP as other presumed extinct pagan faiths, like Celtic, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Arab paganism.

That would be cool, I would like that inclusion. Much of the research work would already have been done for Imperator so that part should go pretty fast.

 

[vipersniper2001]

Please implement other options for the restoration of Rome - believe it or not I don't want to do a world conquest if I restore Rome and revive Hellenism. Consider implementing a Hellenism revival option similar to CK2 with a civil war in addition to a "Hard mode" option for the non-Hellenic revival to ensure that there's something for everyone. Even if reviving Hellenism is incredibly ahistorical, it doesn't mean I want magic plagues, lock-on Mongols, or instantly converted vassals and provinces.

 

[RouteVenus]

will the Romaniote Jewish culture be added with RTP? I feel like it’d be weird to exclude them

 

[Unknown Sage]

Hmm very interesting. Most of this looks alright. Though I must say I am not a fan of the forced hard mode for choosing to go hellenic. I get that it is ahistorical and really mostly a fantasy option. But if you don't like having those in the game because they are ahistorical then just don't add them.

Adding the option to convert to hellenic upon formally restoring the roman empire only to then slap those that wanted the option to do so in the face with arbitrary penalties to make your life hell (by forcing AI hyper-aggression against the player specifically, arbitrarily increased numbers of plagues, and for whatever reason spawning the mongols early on you, I thought the peasant factions already always targeted the top liege but who knows, maybe that got changed in the update?) that only go away if you either undo the very thing you wanted to do (thus making the whole reason for the decision to exist in the first place meaningless) or force the player into conquering the whole map to go back to normal gameplay (which is in my opinion a painfully tedious and unfun process) does not feel good.

If the idea was that it should be difficult to pull off, then maybe don't have it convert every single county for free, and have vassals be able to reject conversion. Which would then naturally lead to game difficulty through people rebelling and vassals scheming to get rid of the new heathen emperor.
But for the love of all that is good please don't do these arbitrary penalties, and especially don't do them if the reason for doing so was that you chose to have the decision bypass the regular ck3 gameplay mechanics involved in converting your entire realm to a completely different religion by converting all counties and vassals for free (if that was the reason of course. This is but mere speculation on my end).

You could even just spawn a large rebellion as a response to the decision that you have to overcome or else get deposed and the state religion reverted to make absolutely sure there is some hardship (but importantly a temporary one if it is successfully dealt with) to trying to go hellenic.

I thus would humbly request at the very least a game rule option for disabling this forced hard mode punishment for straying from history in this one specific way (which in my opinion is anti-fun).
I'd really just prefer if the option would just convert your character alone, with the usual non hellenic related effects, which then provides the player with difficulty in the form of having to manually convert the entire empire.

 

[toegut]

Frankokratia: ‘The Rule of the Franks’
The brief, tumultuous age of Latin rule in Greek lands was referred to as such.

The Latin Emperor faces some interesting choices in the early days of rule.

View attachment 1182984
[The Venetians offer a quid pro quo.]

View attachment 1182985
[The Greeks suggest the Latin Emperor become… Administrative?!?]

In order to achieve maximum CK3 turmoil, the fall of Byzantium unlocks a new CB everywhere in the empire: Seize Imperial Duchy. For, in this age of uncertain aftermath, any who possess Byzantine de jure land can lay claim to other such titles.

View attachment 1182986
[The Latin Emperor uses Seize Imperial Duchy to expand his realm.]

And, in a broken realm haunted by armed hosts, earning victory attracts armies to your banner! This should help stronger Latins, Turks and Greeks in the region push their way to dominance.

But what is de facto dominance without de jure righteousness?

View attachment 1182987
[Legitimize Latin Dominion Decision.]

Latin Emperors of sufficient legitimacy have a unique decision that lets them claim the kingdoms of Byzantium and the hearts of the Greeks, one by one.

View attachment 1182988
[Expunge Latin Dominion Decision.]

And the Byzantines, when/if they manage a comeback, can claw their kingdom titles back. Should they retake Constantinople and establish themselves well enough — the Restore the Byzantine Empire Decision gives the Greeks a pretty easy means to scrub all this nonsense out.

why are you not using the Struggle mechanic to portray the struggle between the Latin Empire and the Greeks over formerly Byzantine titles? instead this seems a very hacky and ad hoc system of custom CBs and decisions.

Also who gets the Eastern and who gets the Western Roman Empire if the decision "Cleave the Empire" is taken? Is the player always given the Western part because it contains Rome?

 

[Zoultan]

Yunus Emre also known as Derviş Yûnus (Yûnus the Dervish) was a Turkish folk poet and Sufi who greatly influenced Turkish culture in anatolia. (1238-1320)

Ahmad Yasawi was a Turkic poet and Sufi, an early mystic who exerted a powerful influence on the development of Sufi orders throughout the Turkic-speaking world. (1239-1320)

Haji Bektash Veli He is revered among Alevis for an Islamic understanding that is esoteric, rational and humanistic. Alevi and Bektashi Muslims believe the path of Bektash is the path of Haqq-Muhammad-Ali since they were the source of Bektash's teachings. He was one of the many figures who flourished in the Sultanate of Rum and had an important influence on the culture of Anatolian nomads of Asia Minor. (1209-1271)

Yusuf Khass Hajib was an 11th-century Central Asian Turkic poet, statesman, vizier, Maturidi theologian and philosopher from the city of Balasaghun, the capital of the Kara-Khanid Khanate. He wrote the Kutadgu Bilig.(The text reflects the author's and his society's beliefs, feelings and practices with regard to quite a few topics and depicts interesting facets of various aspects of life in the Kara-Khanid Khanate.) (1019-1077)

Mahmud al-Kashgari was an 11th-century Kara-Khanid scholar and lexicographer of the Turkic languages from Kashgar. Al-Kashgari studied the Turkic languages of his time and in Baghdad, he compiled the first comprehensive dictionary of Turkic languages, the Dīwān Lughāt al-Turk (English: "Compendium of the languages of the Turks") in 1072–74. It was intended for use by the Abbasî Caliphate, the new Arab allies of the Turks. (1005-1102)

They can be interesting figures.

 

[pbw-410]

Looks awesome, especially the historical characters!

Can I make a quick request that exceptional characters be...well...exceptional? Eg, Thomas Aquinas, Rashi etc aren't just unusually good scholars, they are world-historical geniuses whose intellectual impact has seldom been equalled, let alone surpassed, and should therefore both have the genius trait and either begin with or be able to reach levels of learning that make use of the full available range (60, 70, or even 80 plus). Especially as with a bit of attention to lifestyle and selective breeding it isn't all that hard to get a player character to level 50-60 or so. Same with eg William Marshal and prowess - he isn't just an unusually good knight, he's arguably the best ever, and his stats should reflect that. I'm just a little concerned that it might break immersion if I recruit someone who is basically the most intelligent man alive, and then look at them and go "eh, 25 learning, he'll make an adequate antequarian, moving swiftly on." It would still be really cool to have a named historical character hanging around, of course...just not quite so cool.

 

[Mr. Morgenstern]

It's a bit weird that Tamerlane appears to be absent as a historical character, considering that he got his own horde in CK2, unless he's being added as part of the Totally Real Upcoming Nomad Expansion?

 

[le cur]

Now, it’s no fun if these historical characters are too static! After all, no two games of CK are the same, and in one game the barony of Worms might be… of the Ibadi faith and Baranis culture, for example, who knows! In any case, for most characters (who don’t fall into the category of a specific religious minority or proponent) they will adapt to the faith/culture of their place of birth. As an example, here’s Hildegard again, but with the setup mentioned above.

[Hildegard, in case the barony of Worms was Ibadi and Baranis]

Interesting. Suppose instead of totally converting it, the Baranis rulers of Worms formed a hybrid culture: does Hildegard take on ethnicity traits from both cultures, or does she keep the default appearance? At any rate, inspired decision. I always admire the work you guys put in towards making this game as dynamic as possible.

 

[Bisonmask]

Have any changes been made to the Seljuks or the likelihood of powerful AI countries to attack peer states generally? As it stands even if the Seljuks win their first war, which is already rare, a second war will never be declared and they'll spend half a century attacking Arab OPMs before collapsing. Outside of mods I don't think I've seen the AI form Rum in years

I ask because it would be a shame if Latin Empire content only ends up being enjoyable from the 1187 start date because the Byzantines are easily strong enough to handle the 4th crusade

Also are there any mechanics prompting imperial collapse or decline in situations that don't involve catastrophic 4th crusades?

 

[TilFolkvang]

I have to say I really do not like flipping the entire empire to Hellenism, even if I can simply choose not to. That's silly as hell. CK3 has endeavored from the start to be more grounded than CK2, and this is way sillier than Glitterhoof. If your character wants to convert, that's kind of a "hard mode" of its own, isn't it? This is something I wouldn't even allow in a mod I was working on.

There were concerns that this increase in difficulty might be perceived as “too gamey” but we ultimately decided that restoring the ancient Roman Empire in the Middle Ages is already a “gamey” notion.

I think those concerns were right on the money, and this whole reasoning kind of reads like, "We didn't really want to include this content, but since you weirdos wanted it, we decided we were going to make it weird."

 

[DespotS]

Another historical character recommendation, I went over the list few times to make sure he wasn't included, but maybe I missed him still. I always preferred him to Ibn Batutta, or rather his stories

 

[Scrambles]

This is it. This is the best DD that's ever been published.

The complex and nuanced way the 4th Crusade is being handled brings joy to my heart, it and historical characters is exactly what I want for CK3. The overall flavor of this expansion brings me great hope for how things to come will be handled.

Here are some historical characters from Christian Hispania for your consideration since there seems to be a distinct lack of them in the DD:

• St. Anthony of Padua
• St. Dominic of Guzman
• Maria Perez "la Varona"
• Bernardo del Carpio
• Ramon Llull
• Ende
• Diego Gelmirez and Pedro Froilaz de Traba

 

[ThebanDrakon]

Great job on introducing Hellenism. If I can speak and give a Classicist's perspective after reading through this thread, I'm genuinely surprised by the amount of misinformation circulating in response to this. The term "Hellenism" as it relates to religion dates back to at least Emperor Julian (a fourth century CE author), who emphasized Hellenism not simply as "Greek religion" (which varied significantly from city to city and region to region, especially given the spread of Hellenic civilization from Afghanistan to Iberia). Instead, he defined it in a way that included Roman religion. In subsequent centuries, the term "Hellene" generally refers to any Pagan but also has a more technical meaning, denoting the Graeco-Roman religion as a whole. For example, later Christian records from the medieval era refer to Diocletian as a Hellene.

Those arguing that this should be labelled "Roman religion" rather than "Greek religion" are missing the point of how ancient religion functioned. Hellenism represents the Graeco-Roman religion, particularly as it was understood and received in the medieval era. Splitting it into "Greek" and "Roman" would not only be anachronistic—especially despite the already anachronistic inclusion of Hellenism in a medieval simulation game—but also a misunderstanding of how people themselves viewed religion in late antiquity and the medieval period. Unless you were trying to create a game set during the Carthaginian War, well before "Hellenism" as a common term was conceived and before the centuries of hellenization of Rome as a civilization, it would be a genuine waste of resources to divide it in this way for a medieval period game where the understanding of Hellenism was markedly different and "Romanized."

(That's not even to mention how Roman cultus and rituals disseminated through the Greek east in Late Antiquity, such as Saturnalia's reception in Anatolia or Platonists' unique role in the Roman East. Plus, despite how you might think, Greeks did not divide Romans so heavily from them-- Plutarch was not writing ethnographies about Roman histories as if they were a foreign peoples, but writing as if he were engaging in common dialogue. Greek dictionaries of Latin from back then also did not treat "Roman Gods" as distinct from Greek Gods as they might with other peoples, and "Roman Gods" like Janus received Greek reception by later antiquity and are mentioned by authors like Proklos).

Regardless, good job devs. I'm happy to see medieval Hellenism introduced into the game. I hope that we perhaps get some minor events that leans into Platonism as a means through which people engaged with the ancient religion during the medieval period. Also, please don't change the names of the Gods to be Latin-- it would be unnecessary, especially considering the emphasis on the Greek east.

 

[dcjones]

Are there any updates planned for the Turkic invasions of Byzantium? Ive yet to see the sultanate of Rum form itself by the AI which I believes contributes to Byzantium consistently thriving throughout CK3's middle ages.

 

[BadKidOh]

Well..

I wonder if well get county menu art for the city of Rome, perhaps a decision to rebuild? Maybe do something with the Colosseum could be a nice tournament location.?

 

[IngvarBS]

I recommend also adding Munis Al Muzaffar as a historical character.
He is already alive in 867 start date.
Also, it would be nice if William Marshal was a historical character (I know he is a courtier on the new start date).
Maybe let us choose if he joins our court (in England ofc), or if we play him as an adventurer.

 

[Cassilda]

I think that CK2, which included a game rule to allow or disallow the Hellenic restoration had an overall better approach; in my opinion, restoring Hellenism should be its own event, not really tied to the territorial reconquest of the old Roman land. I don't find particular ahistorical for the ERE to reannex those provinces; from a real world perspective re-annexing Islamized land would probably have been an administrative nightmare, but it did happen in Iberia, and the Turks in Anatolia managed to make Turkish and Islamic lands that were Greek and Orthodox, so it is plausible enough for a game.

Restoring Hellenism on the other hand would mean actively converting the population and the event shouldn't convert automatically more than some provinces. I initially thought it was just those held personally by the Emperor, but as most people seems to read it "all the Empire provinces", that's not plausible at all, especially considering the average hostility to polytheism from the Abrahamic religions, and most of the core ERE lands are bound to be Orthodox, and probably Catholic or Sunni the reconquered ones.
An event shouldn't allow for a massive religion conversion like a switch: from a real world perspective, it's quite complex to convert the majority of the inhabitants of some place to another faith, and while in a game a government policy should allowed to be easier, it still shouldn't happen overnight, even in case of monotheism to another monotheist faith, let alone from established monotheism to restored polytheism.
Converting to Hellenism in my opinion shouldn't trigger stronger Mongols (even if I'm willing to support that as a mean to challenge an already blobbing Rome), or make reconquering provinces easier with a new casus belli. It should be the cause of more revolts, making staying in power for the Emperor dynasty harder, make nobles and provinces harder to convert and more likely to band together with other nobles professing an Abrahamic faith, and make more difficult, at least initially, to revoke titles. The maluses should go away with time, as the aristocracy and the population are forced to accept the status quo if a player manages to keep the throne, but it should be gradual and take a long time (after all, CKIII is a game with a long timespan). Giving those boons like nobles and provinces converting immediately should be in my opinion, off the table.

That said, I appreciated that Hellenism is again included as a playable choice, but it should be more nuanced and more challenging; I love alt-history, but the more it deviates from the cultural majority norms of an era, the steeper should be the way.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Look I know he is more "Historical" instead of Historical. But hear me out -

 

[IAmNotAmused]

I agree, Hellenism needs to be split into the Roman and Greek branches, it's just a different icon and a different gods' name list in the end. It wouldn't be difficult for the devs to update.

Hellenism/Roman paganism is was a long dead religion by even 867. It had been declining even before Constantine. Theodosius began the period of official persecution of pagans. Justinian killed the remnants of Hellenism by intentionally closing the academies in Greece. He killed what was left of the old Roman religion unintentionally by ravaging Italy in the Gothic Wars.

The only thing left after that point was local dieties, mystery cults, etc. There was no "branches" anymore. It was shattered, decentralized, headless and slowly stamped out by a steady stream of missionaries coming from the long-converted major cities.

Any pagan revival would be building from *that*, not some prior state that existed and died centuries earlier. It would be building from scratch, a neopaganism. It would probably be heavily Greek influenced, since the bulk of surviving pagan written material was the Greek epics and the critical works of Platonic and Aristotelian though still taught in Byzantine secular education. No such tradition persisted in the west, as such Latin work was lost sooner.