Dev Diary #162 - Steppe by Steppe

[Gyles_]

I may be late to the party, but hopefully someone at Paradox will see this.

The Seljuk Empire in 1066 and the Sultanate of Rum in 1178 should have some nomadic vassals or have nomadic hordes spawned within their realms at game start. Historically, they were the ones behind the invasions of byzantine Anatolia in the 1070s and 1300s. As I understand it, they were subordinate to their respective sultans, but they retained some sort of independence towards them, and were broadly free to roam around and raid neighbouring realms. This would also neatly tie-in with Roads to Power, by bringing together the two DLCs with flavor that could benefit both of them.
I think the argument could also be made for the Pechenegs in 1066, for the exact same reasons (although their invasion of Bulgaria ultimately failed thanks to Alexios I "Absolute Chad" Komnenos). Alternatively, their realm could also be made into a Nomadic realm at game start, though it apparently lies outside of the Great Steppe.

Anyway, I really like everything I've seen in this DD and things are looking great for the horsey bois of the steppes!

 

[Karlington]

I am actually against numbing down "representations" and something as important in this time period as migration and cultural movement to be something miniscule like modifier.. For example, Islam was primarily spread through Asia through trade route and intermarriage with the locals, not to mention the cultural tension and intermingling through conquests. Cultures moves through people and languange, and this will never be covered by the concept that is "modifier". I am not saying it should be old Stellaris pop system, but a pop mechanic is absolutely necessary.

Let's say you have 5 pops in a county, 1 of culture A and 4 of culture B.

Let's say you don't have pops, but instead you have 20% culture A and 80% culture B.

What's the meaningful difference?

I just don't see how pops are "absolutely necessary."

 

[BrotherJonathan]

Let's say you have 5 pops in a county, 1 of culture A and 4 of culture B.

Let's say you don't have pops, but instead you have 20% culture A and 80% culture B.

What's the meaningful difference?

I just don't see how pops are "absolutely necessary."

I agree. I understand why people might want a POP system, but I'll restate my earlier point that it feels like inserting a ton of needless granular detail for it's own sake

 

[Berlichingens]

When will the pre-order be available?

 

[apollo1989vieten]

I agree. I understand why people might want a POP system, but I'll restate my earlier point that it feels like inserting a ton of needless granular detail for it's own sake

I am thinking a pressure system similar to what Civ 6 has might be a way to spread faith passively. A pop system would not be necessary to implement such a system.

 

[Scyobi_Empire]

Let's say you have 5 pops in a county, 1 of culture A and 4 of culture B.

Let's say you don't have pops, but instead you have 20% culture A and 80% culture B.

What's the meaningful difference?

I just don't see how pops are "absolutely necessary."

Pops are also resource intensive, look at stellaris:
they had no pops at the start, adopted the pop system, tried an alternate pop system in the machine age DLC and are now massively removing pops

 

[Slime99]

Nomads should be able to extract fertility outside the Great Steppe, but it should only be counties they hold and it should always start out at 0 to prevent exploiting title granting and revocation. And instead of spawning herders, nomads that migrate outside the Great Steppe would leave behind new rulers of the appropriate government type. That's all that really needs to be implemented for it to work. Anything else is just balancing so that the areas outside the Great Steppe are not as viable as areas within it are.

Each level of development should reduce fertility growth by let's say -5%, so at 20 development there's no fertility growth unless you have some other modifiers.
Winter severity should cause fertility decline, -2/-5/-10 for each level of severity.
Here's an idea on how to make terrain affect fertility.

• Steppe:
  • -20% fertility growth
  • Negated by: Horse Lords, Pastorialists
• Plains:
  • -30% fertility growth
• Farmlands & Floodplains:
  • -80% fertility growth
• Wetlands:
  • -70% fertility growth
  • Mitigated by: Wetlanders (down to -35%)
• Drylands:
  • -40% fertility growth
  • Negated by: Irrigation experts, Dryland Dwellers
• Taiga:
  • -80% fertility growth
  • Mitigated by: Forest Folk, Forest Wardens (down to -40%)
• Forest:
  • -60% fertility growth
  • Mitigated by: Forest Folk, Forest Wardens (down to -30%)
• Jungle:
  • -90% fertility growth
• Hills:
  • -30% fertility growth
  • Negated by: Hill Dwellers
• Mountains:
  • -90% fertility growth
  • Mitigated by: Mountain Homes (down to -30%)
• Desert Mountains:
  • -90% fertility growth
  • Mitigated by: Mountain Homes, Saharan Nomads, Desert Travelers (down to -30%)
• Desert:
  • -50% fertility growth
  • Negated by: Saharan Nomads, Desert Travelers
• Oasis:
  • -20% fertility growth
  • Negated by: Saharan Nomads, Desert Travelers, Irrigation Experts, Dryland Dwellers

The end result would be that expanding outside the Great Steppe would be a real struggle, but not impossible.

 

[The Shacks]

I agree, fertility needs to be a game wide system ( you can then build on it later for agrarian societies to have famines and good harvests and bad harvests. These would be very important micro events and major events to affect county happiness and legitimacy and control and development. Plz do it. ). Nomads should be able to be a dynamic force that comes in and ruins an area or turns it into a wild fields

 

[JohnGiebfried]

So, my day job is as a professor of medieval history, and one of my specialties is Mongol history. I have lots of comments - this is a first draft of ideas I am working with, I will be workshopping and expanding these elsewhere.

Strong Additions: What Works Well​

Might & Obedience: The Might and Obedience systems do an excellent job of capturing the core of Mongol rule—where power wasn’t just about land but about people, submission, and the ability to enforce dominance. Might reflects the steppe reality that strength was measured in warriors and mobility rather than static borders, while Obedience reinforces the idea that rule was based on loyalty, fear, and rewards rather than bureaucratic administration. Together, they create a dynamic system that feels true to how the Mongols expanded and maintained their empire, balancing ruthless conquest with strategic governance.

Tributaries: Replacing “Vassals” with “Subjects” and adjusting the mechanics to fit nomadic governance is a welcome change. The distinction between Nomadic Tributaries, who pay in livestock, and Settled Tributaries, who provide gold, adds an extra layer of authenticity. Well done.

Confederations: This system is a great addition, as it mirrors the real-life political shifts seen during Temujin’s rise. Alliances were often fluid, formed to counterbalance the most powerful faction, and this mechanic reflects that well.

Raid Intents: The ability to declare Raid Intents is fantastic. However, there’s one historically significant aspect missing: raiding to acquire wives or concubines. This was an essential part of Mongol history, affecting figures like Temujin’s wife and his mother. A specific Bride Raiding intent would add depth and historical accuracy.

Land & Special Holdings: The idea that Mongol rulers don’t build structures in fixed holdings, but instead rely on a mobile Domicile, is spot on. Nomadic power was built on movement and adaptability, not static fortifications.

Room for Improvement: Historical Adjustments Needed​

1. Herd Mechanics: A Solid Foundation, But the Numbers Are Off​

One of the most impressive aspects of the Dev Diary is the Herd system, which makes perfect sense as a core mechanic for steppe gameplay. Herds function as both an economic and military resource—directly impacting the number of men-at-arms a ruler can field—which is a great design choice. However, the current numbers feel too low.

The Dev Diary shows that with a herd of 965 animals, a ruler can field 579 Horde Riders. This is far below historical reality. Steppe societies managed vast numbers of horses per warrior. John of Plano Carpini, a 13th-century European envoy, estimated that each Mongol warrior had between 3 and 10 horses at their disposal. Rashid al-Din, a Persian historian writing a century later, noted some warriors had up to 20 mounts. This allowed them to rotate horses for endurance. Higher-tier cavalry should require more horses, but also deliver superior combat performance.

2. Renaming the Lands: A Small Change with Big Impact​

One of the best aspects of the update is the renaming of steppe regions to reflect their actual tribal structures. Instead of artificial duchies and counties, we now see “The Naiman” or “The Borjigin Mongols.” This change reinforces the fact that steppe power was organized around shifting tribal alliances rather than fixed territorial claims.

That said, the map still needs some key tribes to fully capture the story of Genghis Khan’s rise. The Merkit and the Tatars are missing, even though they played pivotal roles. A slight map expansion eastward to include them—and to connect with the Tanguts—would greatly enhance historical immersion. Additionally, a special province representing Burkhan Khaldun, Genghis Khan’s sacred mountain, would be a nice touch. It should grant prestige and piety but remain uninhabitable.

3. Migration Mechanics: Two Systems Are Being Confused​

This is the most frustrating part of the Dev Diary. The migration system as described conflates two distinct historical realities:

1. Annual Nomadic Migration – Mongols and other steppe peoples moved seasonally, shifting between winter valleys and summer pastures. This was a structured, predictable cycle, not a chaotic upheaval.
2. Climate-Driven Large-Scale Migrations – The Dev Diary suggests that climate hardship was a primary driver of Mongol expansion. However, this is backward. The Mongols rose to power during a period of favorable climate conditions that allowed them to support a larger, more specialized population. The Mongol Empire’s decline, by contrast, coincided with worsening climate conditions.

Separating these mechanics into Seasonal Migration and Crisis Migration would more accurately reflect historical patterns.

Additional Suggestions​

• Qurultais Should Be More Frequent: Right now, Qurultais seem limited to succession. In reality, they were also called before major invasions or political decisions.
• More Steppe Characters: At present, we only have Ong Khan and a baby Subedei. More historical figures would flesh out the world.
• Relaxed Inter-Religious Marriage Rules for Nomads: Historically, steppe rulers married across religious lines far more freely than their settled counterparts.

​

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Eliminating season migration is an acceptable break from reality. It would be pretty tedious and potentially game engine stress inducing if all nomads were required to move every 6 months or so.

 

[JohnGiebfried]

Eliminating season migration is an acceptable break from reality. It would be pretty tedious and potentially game engine stress inducing if all nomads were required to move every 6 months or so.

I would have a "Summer Camp" and "Winter Camp" locations you can set - and you can migrate between them automatically every year, you'd just watch the yurt travel across the map on the regular circuit, which you could update when fertility gets low or your realm grows.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

I would have a "Summer Camp" and "Winter Camp" locations you can set - and you can migrate between them automatically every year, you'd just watch the yurt travel across the map on the regular circuit, which you could update when fertility gets low or your realm grows.

You would be getting every nomad on the steppe moving automatically every 6 months. That many characters moving at once might hurt performance.

 

[Slime99]

Winter severity causing fertility decline and terrain types having different fertility growth modifiers would be a good abstraction of the phenomenon. From my understanding fertility is extracted from where it is available. So at summer the steppe would have more fertility growth than the desert but at winter the opposite would be true.

 

[tribnia]

So, my day job is as a professor of medieval history, and one of my specialties is Mongol history. I have lots of comments - this is a first draft of ideas I am working with, I will be workshopping and expanding these elsewhere.

Strong Additions: What Works Well​

Might & Obedience: The Might and Obedience systems do an excellent job of capturing the core of Mongol rule—where power wasn’t just about land but about people, submission, and the ability to enforce dominance. Might reflects the steppe reality that strength was measured in warriors and mobility rather than static borders, while Obedience reinforces the idea that rule was based on loyalty, fear, and rewards rather than bureaucratic administration. Together, they create a dynamic system that feels true to how the Mongols expanded and maintained their empire, balancing ruthless conquest with strategic governance.

Tributaries: Replacing “Vassals” with “Subjects” and adjusting the mechanics to fit nomadic governance is a welcome change. The distinction between Nomadic Tributaries, who pay in livestock, and Settled Tributaries, who provide gold, adds an extra layer of authenticity. Well done.

Confederations: This system is a great addition, as it mirrors the real-life political shifts seen during Temujin’s rise. Alliances were often fluid, formed to counterbalance the most powerful faction, and this mechanic reflects that well.

Raid Intents: The ability to declare Raid Intents is fantastic. However, there’s one historically significant aspect missing: raiding to acquire wives or concubines. This was an essential part of Mongol history, affecting figures like Temujin’s wife and his mother. A specific Bride Raiding intent would add depth and historical accuracy.

Land & Special Holdings: The idea that Mongol rulers don’t build structures in fixed holdings, but instead rely on a mobile Domicile, is spot on. Nomadic power was built on movement and adaptability, not static fortifications.

Room for Improvement: Historical Adjustments Needed​

1. Herd Mechanics: A Solid Foundation, But the Numbers Are Off​

One of the most impressive aspects of the Dev Diary is the Herd system, which makes perfect sense as a core mechanic for steppe gameplay. Herds function as both an economic and military resource—directly impacting the number of men-at-arms a ruler can field—which is a great design choice. However, the current numbers feel too low.

The Dev Diary shows that with a herd of 965 animals, a ruler can field 579 Horde Riders. This is far below historical reality. Steppe societies managed vast numbers of horses per warrior. John of Plano Carpini, a 13th-century European envoy, estimated that each Mongol warrior had between 3 and 10 horses at their disposal. Rashid al-Din, a Persian historian writing a century later, noted some warriors had up to 20 mounts. This allowed them to rotate horses for endurance. Higher-tier cavalry should require more horses, but also deliver superior combat performance.

2. Renaming the Lands: A Small Change with Big Impact​

One of the best aspects of the update is the renaming of steppe regions to reflect their actual tribal structures. Instead of artificial duchies and counties, we now see “The Naiman” or “The Borjigin Mongols.” This change reinforces the fact that steppe power was organized around shifting tribal alliances rather than fixed territorial claims.

That said, the map still needs some key tribes to fully capture the story of Genghis Khan’s rise. The Merkit and the Tatars are missing, even though they played pivotal roles. A slight map expansion eastward to include them—and to connect with the Tanguts—would greatly enhance historical immersion. Additionally, a special province representing Burkhan Khaldun, Genghis Khan’s sacred mountain, would be a nice touch. It should grant prestige and piety but remain uninhabitable.

3. Migration Mechanics: Two Systems Are Being Confused​

This is the most frustrating part of the Dev Diary. The migration system as described conflates two distinct historical realities:

1. Annual Nomadic Migration – Mongols and other steppe peoples moved seasonally, shifting between winter valleys and summer pastures. This was a structured, predictable cycle, not a chaotic upheaval.
2. Climate-Driven Large-Scale Migrations – The Dev Diary suggests that climate hardship was a primary driver of Mongol expansion. However, this is backward. The Mongols rose to power during a period of favorable climate conditions that allowed them to support a larger, more specialized population. The Mongol Empire’s decline, by contrast, coincided with worsening climate conditions.

Separating these mechanics into Seasonal Migration and Crisis Migration would more accurately reflect historical patterns.

Additional Suggestions​

• Qurultais Should Be More Frequent: Right now, Qurultais seem limited to succession. In reality, they were also called before major invasions or political decisions.
• More Steppe Characters: At present, we only have Ong Khan and a baby Subedei. More historical figures would flesh out the world.
• Relaxed Inter-Religious Marriage Rules for Nomads: Historically, steppe rulers married across religious lines far more freely than their settled counterparts.

​

In fact we have Kuchlug in Temujin's court. I don’t know where his father goes. Other famous or infamous characters may be Jelme, as well as commanders of Kheshig: Muqali, Boroqul, Bo'orchu and Chormaqan.

 

[JohnGiebfried]

In fact we have Kuchlug in Temujin's court. I don’t know where his father goes. Other famous or infamous characters may be Jelme, as well as commanders of Kheshig: Muqali, Boroqul, Bo'orchu and Chormaqan.

Yes, but no Jebe or Jamukha, none of the Tatars or Merkit, Hoelun's first husband is missing, as is Tayang Khan. Really its the fact I can't play Jamukha that makes me the most frustrated.

 

[jinggachingu]

Let's say you have 5 pops in a county, 1 of culture A and 4 of culture B.

Let's say you don't have pops, but instead you have 20% culture A and 80% culture B.

What's the meaningful difference?

I just don't see how pops are "absolutely necessary."

The meaningful difference is DEVELOPMENT. It's just an arbitrary number when a place's development is always tied to people and the infrastructure. You won't find a metropolis with only 10 people in it. More people increased infrastructure and production, hence high development.

Then there is the concept of "popular opinion" in the game and popular opinion which has been an arbitrary number. 20% culture A (and faith), if it's your culture and your faith they will be more rebellious if your acceptance is low and your faith is evil to culture B. So instead of flat binary, Here is a negative popular opinion because you didn't convert these people to your faith, and it will magically drop to 0 once you press the button, you'll have a more granular and organic conversion. So now, you're popular opinion will depend on these people of Culture A and B.

And this is the most important part!
People move! If your cultural acceptance and popular opinion are low, then people will move to places where it is better for them, hampering the development of that place, while those who stay or do not have any other place to go OR for people with certain tradition (like, fierce independence, giving more meaning to this tradition than just, "here unique MAA"), will rebels until they're treated better or their need is fulfilled. This is give a reason for people to migrate, and might even cause another problem for a neighboring ruler.

This is ONLY on the county level mind you! There are so many ideas that you can create (especially if we're getting resources and economy), and everything will improve your interaction with the map,and your character, and it will even give the people that live in your land more personality because they are "alive". (And this is basically what the paradox team repeatedly said what their target is)

 

[jinggachingu]

I agree. I understand why people might want a POP system, but I'll restate my earlier point that it feels like inserting a ton of needless granular detail for it's own sake

It is not needless. CK3 dev said the problem with implementing a resources system in the game is that medieval rulers did not actively "engage" in trading (like there is no a state law to trade certain resources), because it is the PEOPLE who trade. There is so many thing you can open up by having a pop system (from law because now you have people of different cultures as your target, traditions because as I explained on my comment above these pop will "behave" differently) and everything will make your map more alive than it is which only showed a difference in color if someone conquers a land or plague hit (Oh, and "quarantine" and plague resistance randomness can also be fixed with pop system, improving the plague sytem in general)

It's not just about being granular, but what POP sytem can develop into.

 

[BrotherJonathan]

The meaningful difference is DEVELOPMENT. It's just an arbitrary number when a place's development is always tied to people and the infrastructure. You won't find a metropolis with only 10 people in it. More people increased infrastructure and production, hence high development.

Then there is the concept of "popular opinion" in the game and popular opinion which has been an arbitrary number. 20% culture A (and faith), if it's your culture and your faith they will be more rebellious if your acceptance is low and your faith is evil to culture B. So instead of flat binary, Here is a negative popular opinion because you didn't convert these people to your faith, and it will magically drop to 0 once you press the button, you'll have a more granular and organic conversion. So now, you're popular opinion will depend on these people of Culture A and B.

And this is the most important part!
People move! If your cultural acceptance and popular opinion are low, then people will move to places where it is better for them, hampering the development of that place, while those who stay or do not have any other place to go OR for people with certain tradition (like, fierce independence, giving more meaning to this tradition than just, "here unique MAA"), will rebels until they're treated better or their need is fulfilled. This is give a reason for people to migrate, and might even cause another problem for a neighboring ruler.

This is ONLY on the county level mind you! There are so many ideas that you can create (especially if we're getting resources and economy), and everything will improve your interaction with the map,and your character, and it will even give the people that live in your land more personality because they are "alive". (And this is basically what the paradox team repeatedly said what their target is)

It is not needless. CK3 dev said the problem with implementing a resources system in the game is that medieval rulers did not actively "engage" in trading (like there is no a state law to trade certain resources), because it is the PEOPLE who trade. There is so many thing you can open up by having a pop system (from law because now you have people of different cultures as your target, traditions because as I explained on my comment above these pop will "behave" differently) and everything will make your map more alive than it is which only showed a difference in color if someone conquers a land or plague hit (Oh, and "quarantine" and plague resistance randomness can also be fixed with pop system, improving the plague sytem in general)

It's not just about being granular, but what POP sytem can develop into.

I understand this, but I don't really think that the game needs or would necessarily benefit from these things. I personally feel that a lot of this would distract for the core game, and we'd end up with something that's less "Crusader Kings" and more "Victoria with medieval paint".

 

[jinggachingu]

I understand this, but I don't really think that the game needs or would necessarily benefit from these things. I personally feel that a lot of this would distract for the core game, and we'd end up with something that's less "Crusader Kings" and more "Victoria with medieval paint".

I understand what you are saying, but you get that backwards. You are a king because there are people, Victoria is about geopolitics, industrialism, which is not something I said or alluded to. Interactions with people are not Victoria or Victorian things, it is MEDIEVAL things where you actually see the people while as history move to the future(or present, I should say), the government treated humans as more and more about statistics and less about living beings.

And before I go away further off-topic, let me just say my original point, something like migration, you can't just represent them as a modifier or it would be lacking, and would be implemented better (and even open further development potential) with pop system. The only downside I could see is performance, but then again, any improvement in the game will be taxing for the engine, and most requested features like Trade, Resources, Law, etc, would work better with pop system if you want to make them faithful to how it works in Medieval time anyway.

 

[BrotherJonathan]

I understand what you are saying, but you get that backwards. You are a king because there are people, Victoria is about geopolitics, industrialism, which is not something I said or alluded to. Interactions with people are not Victoria or Victorian things, it is MEDIEVAL things where you actually see the people while as history move to the future(or present, I should say), the government treated humans as more and more about statistics and less about living beings.

And before I go away further off-topic, let me just say my original point, something like migration, you can't just represent them as a modifier or it would be lacking, and would be implemented better (and even open further development potential) with pop system. The only downside I could see is performance, but then again, any improvement in the game will be taxing for the engine, and most requested features like Trade, Resources, Law, etc, would work better with pop system if you want to make them faithful to how it works in Medieval time anyway.

My apologies if I misunderstood or mischaracterized your point. I understand why you want a pop system (so that things like migration and taxes can be represented in a more detailed manner). My assertion is that the game doesn't need a detailed representation of these things in the first place.