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Dev Diary #165 - Tributaries & Confederations

Hello there!

Welcome back to the first official dev diary for our Core Expansion this year, Khans of the Steppe. For those who did not see it, we first talked about the DLC back last month with Dev Diary #162 - Steppe by Steppe, so I recommend reading that first.

Today we will discuss Tributaries, Confederations, and Raid Intents. All three topics were mentioned in the previous Dev Diary, but we will discuss them at length in this one, so let’s settle in like a migrating nomad and get started.

Follow-up from Previous Dev Diary

The team has gone through an intense iteration period based on both feedback collected internally and the comments received from our previous Dev Diary. Many changes have been thus made, and we are sure we are not done with it yet. However, here's a small list of some of the most significant tweaks done based on your feedback:
  • A new, "base" Tributary type has been made available for non-Nomads.
  • Concerns about the Nomadic economy have been addressed by adding a monthly income for nomads based on their Herd size (symbolizing the trade of meat, hides, etc.)
  • A game rule has been added to include Nomadic governments in the Sahel, Arabia, the horn of Africa, Sami and Karelia regions
  • Tweaked the borders of the Steppe and characters who should be nomadic in all bookmarks (more than I can list here, screenshots will be shared in following Diaries)
  • We've added a Culture and Faith specific to your Nomadic Capital, different than your own
  • Adventurers can now become Nomads if they move into a Herder holding
  • We have expanded what we originally scoped for razing
  • We've extended and altered the effects of some Seasons
  • We have made it possible to grow your herd if you hold lands outside of the Steppe, giving those counties Fertility if held by a nomad

Tributaries

One of the new features we’re introducing with Khans of the Steppe, and the free update that goes along with it, are Tributaries. Vast nomadic realms like the Cumans, Khitans, and Khazars were not kept together by a tiered system of formal vassalage and pledges of fealty, nor were they delineated by culture or religion. Instead, the harsh realpolitik of the steppe applied - whoever could muster the greatest capacity for destruction on their neighbors proved themselves worthy of tribute, in exchange for the privilege of not being trampled underhoof. Modeling this type of subject relationship properly was the impetus for the Tributary feature.

Let's back up a bit and discuss some fundamentals first though, because tributaries aren't just a nomad thing. While Tributaries are similar to vassals in some respects, they represent a whole new type of unequal diplomatic relationship in the game. As a result, many game elements that formerly referred to "vassals" now refer to "subjects" instead. Subjects can be either vassals or tributaries, and these sub-types adhere to different rules. As with vassal contracts, there can be different types of tributary contracts with varying degrees of obligations. In most cases, these terms can be renegotiated.

Tributaries can be seen as a more independent subject type compared to vassals. While in most cases they share the map color and realm name with their suzerain, they can act and be interacted with independently, even when it comes to warfare. Most tributary types can also be created through peaceful means, by a sovereign ruler pledging tribute to a nomadic realm in exchange for a guarantee to not be attacked by them, or through a nomadic ruler demanding tribute from a neighboring realm. Agreements of tribute are (usually) perpetuated across generations, but may change in nature over time or be more easily broken when the contract changes hands.

image-01.png

[Marzoban Tokku and his weak backbone stands little chance against the persuasive might of the Cumanian horde]

image-02.png

[If some scary nomadic realm is on your border and you'd like to remain as independent as possible, you can proactively choose to pay them tribute to avoid outright conquest]

image-03.png

[Existing vassals can be released as tributaries, and in some cases you can even vassalize an existing tributary]

Nomadic Tributaries are what you will encounter most frequently in Khans of the Steppe. These consist of nomadic realms (or spineless herders) who have pledged tribute to a stronger nomadic ruler on their border. They will pay a part of their herd in tribute on a regular basis, and some of the prestige they gain will also be conferred upon their suzerain. In exchange for tribute, they enjoy a great deal of independence from their suzerain and will not be outright attacked or raided by them. They can even have tributaries of their own!

Settled Tributaries are non-nomadic realms (such as feudal princes, tribes, or clans) who have yielded to a bordering nomadic ruler. Like their nomadic tributary counterparts, they will pay tribute on a regular basis, but instead of herd they will provide gold and levies.

Both these types of tributary contracts are inherited across generations, but they also have quite a bit of leeway in simply ceasing payments (if they are ready to face the consequences of insulting their suzerain, that is). This is most likely to happen if a nomadic suzerain prove themselves weak in some way (and therefore unworthy of tribute, by the laws of the steppe), like losing a war or suffering a chaotic Kurultai succession. Once tributaries opt to stop sending gifts to their suzerain the suzerain can choose to attack them to recover control, or let them go try to make their own destiny without their protection. To try to keep this from happening, nomadic suzerains can either be lenient with their contract conditions, or leverage their Dread to demand Obedience of their tributaries.

image-04.png

[Your subject view will display if any of your tributaries are likely to stop paying you and why. Obedience plays a strong role in keeping your subjects in line, but even disobedient ones will be reluctant to stop paying off much stronger suzerains. More factors will be added before launch, such as losing a war or having chaotic Kurultai successions.]

A third type of subjugated tributary has also been added, which has no direct relation to nomads. This is a tributary type obliged to pay a lot of gold and a small amount of prestige to their suzerain in exchange for their suzerain's protection from outside invasion. If attacked, a subjugated tributary can call their suzerain in to defend them, and if they refuse their tributary obligations are annulled. Any non-nomadic realm can create this type of tributary through the Bring Under Tribute casus belli, enabling the extortion of neighboring protectorates through sheer military might.

This contract does not get inherited by the suzerain's heir upon their death, but also cannot be voluntarily broken. If the tributary wishes to break free of their obligations prior to their suzerain's death, they will have to fight them for independence.

image-05.png

[Even feudal realms can subjugate neighboring kingdoms to make them pay tribute, if their Crown Authority is high enough]

It's important to note that it's possible to modify the terms of a tributary contract, just like a vassal contract. For example, nomads can negotiate for protection by their suzerains in exchange for higher tribute payments. If you and your tributary are Blood Brothers, you can even negotiate a guarantee that they will follow you on all military adventures, offensive as well as defensive.

image-06.png

[Even the tributary can try to renegotiate the terms, but without a good relationship with (or a hook on) your suzerain this might be met with limited success]

Another aspect of tributaries of nomadic realms is that they can provide new Men-at-Arms types to their suzerain. In keeping with the flexible and heterogenous nature of steppe warfare, nomad rulers are able to recruit Men-at-Arms from both tributaries and vassals as if they were their own. Since the Men-at-Arms are recruited from other realms, rather than an additional cost of herd (to represent the development of more advanced mounted units) this costs a premium in gold to entice the foreigners to join up with the Khan's formidable horde.

image-07.png

[If you don’t have any subjects with access to some of the basic Men-at-Arms types, you get a little hint suggesting who might give you access to them…]

Visually, tributary realms will typically adopt the map color and name of their suzerain to clarify the relationship between them. Modders might be interested to know that this behavior can be changed in script depending on the subject contract: you can make tributary types that do not inherit the suzerain's color or name, or just one of them, as well!

image-08.png

[In 867, the Khazars dominate the Western Steppe while the Kirghiz control the Eastern parts. The Karluks and Ohguz are powerful nomadic realms in the central steppe region and have a lot of opportunity to compete for the smaller nomadic and tribal realms towards the northern parts.]

image-09.png

[In 1066 the western and central steppe regions are dominated by the Cumans in the south, with a considerable tributary network maintaining their control of the center and maintaining their power against the Karluks and Khitans. The Pechenegs have migrated west and act as a buffer zone between the steppe and the Byzantine Empire - will they manage to become their own nomadic powerhouse, or fall to either of their titanic neighbors?]

image-10.png

[In 1178, the Cumans remain the most powerful nomadic realm on the steppe, but for how long? The Khitans are migrating south into East Asia, leaving their old lands to the fractured Mongols to thrive.]

Since tributaries inherit all of the functionality of the vassal contract system, with a few extensions, they are very flexible and capable of modeling a great deal of unequal relationships between realms and rulers. There's a fair chance you will see more tributary types and dynamics added to the game in the future, and the system is fully available to modders to play with as well!

But how would you deal with these massive, aggressive nomadic realms as a smaller nomad who just wants to live a laid-back, peaceful nomadic lifestyle? One avenue to that is what we'll discuss next.


Confederations

Brothers and sisters, do you ever tire of lusting after power? When you jump into a game as a meek little Count, do you wish friends and neighbors would stand together with you against the masters of the world? Do you want something new to do as a tribal? Say no more, my brothers and sisters - but the sacred words, the oath of confederation!

In short, Confederations are a new way for nomads and tribals to feel safe while initially building their power, playing tall, etc. It’s also a bit of an extra challenge for those looking to easily gobble up areas of the map that lack a mighty King or Emperor.

image-12.png

[12th c. Estonia mightn’t have looked quite like this, but hopefully this captures some of its spirit]

The inspiration for Confederations came from a visit to beautiful Tallinn, Estonia (which I very highly recommend), a fascinating conversation with a very learned scholar in medieval Baltic history, and a visit to the Great Guild Hall Museum. Therein, an exhibit asked the question — “Why did Estonia not become a Kingdom?”

It’s an interesting question, with at least a few answers. In a sense, the Estonian tribes did actually have kings, but these were temporary war-leaders or spiritual figures, and they did not serve to unite all the tribes together into one lasting polity. They are mentioned, as stubborn figures of resistance, in the Christian chronicles of conquest. This kind of defensive decentralization seemed new for CK3; I immediately wanted to represent it in our game. And, of course, there are the steppe confederations of history — the Khamag Mongol, the Kimek-Kipchaks, the Mogyërs, and so on — to consider and draw from as well. I’m also a Canadian btw, and Confederation has been a force of history around the Great Lakes for quite a while.

Let’s go through the confederating process, and discuss.

image-13.png

[The Decision that lays the path to Confederation]

The first step is a Decision that enables you to offer Confederation to other rulers. Its warnings are to be taken seriously — you will likely have to leave your Confederation if you want to increase your station in the world (through means like title creation, migration, Dominance) or enrich yourself by raiding/attacking your fellow weaklings.

image-14.png

[The requirements for starting a Confederation; you have to be something of a small fish]

Who can make a Confederation? Well, you have to be standing on your own, and you can’t be standing very tall. These same restrictions apply to all prospective Confederates.

image-15.png

[Additional Confederation triggers. Most of the time, you’ll need a big, scary common foe]

Confederations in Crusader Kings III will be fleeting, ephemeral things, and focused largely on deterring the depredations of powerful neighbors. Thus, they will almost always be created in response to major powers being at their borders. It’s been really cool to watch Conquerors and great kings arise and, as they do, Confederations spring up all along their underbellies like nests of rats or colonies of fire ants. There is now a third, sometimes-viable alternative to “submit or die.”

The possible faith hostility trigger also works really nicely along the borderlands between pagan tribals and reformed faiths: it means the former can often be seen making the Confederation defensive arrangement to resist the brutal tide of history.

image-16.png

[You’re ready for Confederation… you just need a buddy to join you]

Given Confederations are available across the map, to both nomads and tribals, related content is laced with conditional loc and effects to keep things from feeling too inappropriate. That said, this isn’t a content-heavy feature; development on Confederations instead focused on making it an effective new mechanic.

image-17.png

[The interaction used to create a Confederation, and also to add new members]

The character interaction Offer Confederation (unlocked by the Call for Confederation decision or by Confederation membership) is how this brothers-in-arms, last stand-style shit comes to pass. Notice that, because migration removes members from the Confederation, there are incentives to stay put for a bit longer (a positive County Fertility modifier and an immediate County Fertility boost). AI should also be more reluctant to migrate than usual, at least for a few years.

image-18.png

[Weights are pretty comprehensive and pretty make-or-break]

Your level of investment in your confederation can make a big difference in its strength: herd, prestige and hooks can be sacrificed to make valid members more willing to join.

image-19.png

[Well isn’t that nice - he accepts!]

image-20.png

[Note the Confederation icon and breakdown]

Confederations aren’t a title. Their closest equivalent is an alliance or truce, thus they live in the Diplomacy space of the Character view. Here, you can see all members of the Confederation.

The Kimek Confederation is a culture-based name, which happens when both the first members are of the same culture. When they aren’t, the Confederation will be named after the founder’s de jure duchy (ex. the Semey Confederation, the Kargassia Confederation).

image-21.png

[A handful of Kimeks have joined the Confederation (squint, it’s on the left)]

On the map, Confederations will look similar to the new Tributaries: their individual realm names are replaced by the overall Confederation and their map colors are blended towards the main Confederation color (which is based on the founder’s capital).

You may notice that the members remain rather unevenly-sized. That’s because only independent top rulers are members of the Confederation, and their vassals (if they have any) are not.

image-22.png

[The Confederation is attacked!]

When a Confederation member is attacked is when the organization really comes into its own. All members are automatically added as Defenders. This can result in a pretty potent nest of bees that the aggressor has just poked. Accordingly, the combined strength of a Confederation is shown when opening the Declare War screen on one of its members, and AI should be appropriately hesitant to attack strong Confederations.

Note that this applies only to members’ defensive wars. They cannot call on the Confederation when they themselves declare offensive wars.

image-23.png

[The Decision for when a Confederate decides it’s time to go…]

While AI will usually give the Confederation at least a few years of their time, players are quite free to strike off on their own whenever. Albeit… for a higher Prestige cost during the first couple years.

The AI weighting for this Decision is heavily dependent on circumstances. Chief among these is the presence of big nearby threats that necessitate confederation. The result is that, where confederations are needed, they should prove much more lasting and resilient. And when they are no longer needed, they should often quickly disband.

image-24.png

[BROTRAYAL]

And there it is, Confederations! I hope this run-through has cleared up the feature. And remember — the CK player who stands alone, dies alone. Call up a friend right now and ask if they’d FUCKING DIE for you. Post results in the comments.

Raid Intents

We discussed raid intents in the previous dev diary, with a small WIP screenshot. It’s time to expand on what we said then.

First of all, we should talk about loot. As you all know, we’ve had loot in the game for quite a while. Gold you can take from a settlement as you raid them as a tribal ruler or a pagan, which you then bring back home to turn into gold and prestige. We haven’t changed the core mechanic of loot, but we have disconnected it slightly from purely being gold, now that you have more ways of using it. With Raid Intents, we now have ways of turning that loot into other things, to symbolize your aims as you are raiding foreign lands.

image-25.png


Here is the new raid intent screen (for nomads), after a small art pass and after we added some proper names. Now, let’s look at the default raid intent for nomadic rulers, Pillage.

image-26.png

[Note that none of the numbers are final, so they might change before the release]

It’s a fairly straightforward calculation. If you bring home 100 loot, you will get 100 gold and 150 herd out of it when you return to your borders.

Most of the other raid intents have some kind of separate side effects in addition to their base calculation, so let’s look at some of them.

image-27.png


Nomads were known for raiding far and wide, with the Hungarian raiders, for example, bringing home loot from all across Europe. With the Adventure raid intent, it will take a bit longer to raid each settlement, but you can carry a significantly larger amount of loot with you, and you will take no hostile county attrition.

It should be noted that within the steppe, nomad raiders will not take any hostile county attrition, regardless of raid intent, but they will regularly take attrition outside of it.

image-28.png


Plunder symbolizes that you aren’t necessarily just taking anything but trying to find the most valuable things to take. It will take significantly longer to raid every single settlement. Still, the loot conversion as you get home is considerably better, and you have a chance to learn innovations of a culture as you raid a settlement if they know about something you do not (though the chances are quite low).

image-29.png


For those less interested in the loot itself but rather other side effects, you might want to take the capture raid intent to significantly increase the chance of capturing someone as you raid a settlement. It’s great if you are looking to ransom someone.

image-30.png


And last but not least, you have the opportunity to destroy. It’s an opportunity for nomads to increase their prestige (as they don’t get any prestige from other raid intents) and their dread (which is more important for nomads). It also destroys buildings and development in settlements they raid.

Now, one thing to mention is that we don’t only have raid intents for nomads but for other raiders as well. Regular raiders also have access to the Terrorize raid intent, so feel free to bring destruction to your enemies no matter which flavor of uncivilized you are. They also have access to Pillage, but in a slightly different form:

image-31.png


Like current functionality, you simply change your loot to gold and prestige. And for Vikings, they have access to a slightly modified version of the Adventure intent.

image-32.png


If you want to raid your way down to Constantinople and then home again, feel free to take this to bring all that loot back home.

Now for the other side, you can destroy the raiders as they enter your lands, but we have also made one small adjustment so you can protect yourself a bit against any incoming threat.

image-33.png


We have increased the hostile raid time reduction in the building, so you have more time to respond to incoming threats. It now also reduces the chances of special raid intents. In other words, it reduces the improvements from the Capture raid intent, minimizes the chance of Terrorize ruining your lands, and for Plunder to find any innovation.

Upgrading the building will improve the effect and block raid intent special effects from happening outright. In other words, something to keep in mind if you experience a lot of raids in your lands.

Next Week

That’s it for this week. Next week, we plan to revisit migrations and the nomadic government, so we hope to see you again then. Go forth and conquer, my blood brothers.
 
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Since current Dev Diary is about Confederations, Cumans Should be a confederation with Kipchaks. as at least one other people (ngl didn't read after page 1) has mentioned

NOTE: Below are a lot of things that would've been links but I can't post them due to a warning of "Spams", some are wikipedia, rest comes from
Prosopography of the Byantine World (pbw2016)

Speaking of Cumans and since the upcoming DLC is about Nomads, There should be Cuman-Kipchaks in both Georgia and Byzantine Empire and by the 1178 start date, some of those in Georgia should already be "de-Kipchakized" but possibly not the ones in BE.

Wikipedia on Georgian Kipchaks is Kipchaks in Georgia is named

Kipchaks_in_Georgia

A couple of Cuman pronoia holders from 1181 as examples of Byzantine Cumans, in the narrative section you can find more pronoia holders.

Baltzanares Komanopoulos, name tells it all.
Pbw person 143148

Masout Armenopoulos, his name suggests he has Armenian ancestry as well.
PBW person 143437

Cumans should also have lighter skin and hair colors.
Wikipedia Cumans Appearance (again, can't post link)

Since DLC is about nomads and I've already mentioned Cumans settling in BE, let us not forget that Pechenegs have also been settled in BE in huge numbers, in their hundreds of thousands, possibly and in fact, in 1066 start Pechenegs (ones settled south of Danube).

Kegen(or perhaps named Tegenes, called Ioannes Kegen after baptism, who successfuly fought of Uzes on several occasions got the backing of 2 tribes when Tyrach wanted to murder him due to his success to Byzantine Empire with 2 tribes backing him, against 11 backing Tyrach, after being defeated, went to BE with 20.000 supporters. After several eventful years, Tyrach flees to BE with his entire nation, which at one point said to number 800.000. They both die in 1050, during the Pecheneg revolt: some Pechenegs rebel because Emperor wants to resettle them, Tyrach joins the rebel Pechenegs and is defeated and presumably dies, Kegen is sent to the Pechenegs as an emissary and murdered by them, Pechenegs are rather successful and defeat Byzantines time after time until a plague hits them and they make peace, possibly one granting them great autonomy so they can(ones settled in BE) also be made tributaries in 1066.

Wikipedia articles on Ioannes Kegen and Tyrach (which are rather lackluster) are

Ioannes_Kegen
Tyrach

Wikipedia article on Pecheneg revolt (which doesn't mention the plague, can't find the source I read it atm)

Pecheneg_revolt

Although Tyrach has no known family beside his father Bilter, or at least I couldn't find them, Kegen has known family which can be added for 1066 start as




Tyrach and his father Bilter
PBW person 108496
PBW person 106844

Kegen, his father Baltzar and his two sons Goulinos and Baltzar
PBW person 107514
PBW person 106734
PBW person 107201
PBW person 106733

There are also other known Pechenegs of Byzantine Empire close to 1066 start date, for example Anna Komnene mentions two Pecheneg chieftains who rule Bitzina/Vicina in 1083 and these two allow Pechenegs who remain north of the Danube and were pressed by Uzes to cross south, and the new coming Pechenegs later ravage Byzantine land.

PBW person 156755
PBW person 156756

Traulos, a former "Manichean"(Paulician) who was a servant of Alexios Komnenos is apparently also a part of this ravaging and his second wife was the daughter of a Pecheneg chieftain, perhaps a daughter of one of the two above.
PBW person 161179

Edit: Also, Magyar Migration should be adjusted, it is NOT the result of Magyars defeating Bulgars but instead Magyars being defeated by Bulgars and their Pecheneg allies, and Pechenegs migrating to Magyar territory, pushing them. Pecheneg themselves were pushed westwardby Oghuz, who were allied with Khazars and defeated Pechenegs, so in reality it should be Pecheneg migration first, Magyar migration second.
 
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Maybe when in a Confederation Dominance could be replaced by some kind of "Confederation Centralization" track shared by all members, which could be changed on cooldown by either the strongest member or someone with a hook on them upon doing great deeds like leading the Confederation to win a war or the like, which could then lead to the creation of a united Kingdom or Empire at the highest levels.
 
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Maybe you can add the ability to increase development to the "Capture" intent (as in the event that is already in the game). After all, in addition to the capture of “important” hostages, it would be logical that slaves were also captured.
 
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With Tributaries perhaps there can be a bit of flavor added to the 1066 bookmark for Spain? Parias, the tribute the muslim taifas gave to the christian kingdoms were a large factor in inter-faith conflict on who recieves this money. When Ferdinand the Great died in 1065 his children all inherited Parias from the taifas in Badajoz, Toledo, and Zaragoza.
 
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Maybe you can add the ability to increase development to the "Capture" intent (as in the event that is already in the game). After all, in addition to the capture of “important” hostages, it would be logical that slaves were also captured.
I’m thinking and hoping what they’ll do for Norse tribal is exchange the nomad only portion for development. Probably development wasn’t included because it was a nomad only intent and development is tied to the country and not the nomadic state.
 
This is a very fair point. We will add it to Norse tribals.
Thanks!

If you don’t mind a follow up, is it inclined to be reduced gold & prestige as the other tribal intents posted, or will it be gold & a small boost to development akin to the current “bounteous plunder”/“skilled slaves” event? It seems the later might be more appropriate to represent that the goal for a viking historically was more to capture thralls as opposed to targets for ransom.
 
May be a bit out of place... But since the devs are taking their time to make some changes and improvements to Tribal whilst implementing Nomads, it is a good opportunity to finally add that much requested unique court room for tribal Norse kings and emperors.
 
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The change raid intent is such a good idea. Hope the implementation is good also!!

There are sometimes when neighbours wrong me and I honestly don´t feel like the current game mechanics always allow you to really get revenge.

The ´terrorize´ option could really add some nice gameplay and RP elements.

Very very cool!!
 
What are the title tier requirements for tributaries? Does a tributary have to be a lower title than their suzerain or can they be equal. (King paying tribute to a King, for example) Can they even be a higher tier?
 
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and you have a chance to learn innovations of a culture as you raid a settlement if they know about something you do not (though the chances are quite low).

I was just thinking, a less rare but small boost to innovation progress in that tech might be nicer that suddenly learning an innovation on a very small chance. Not sure how others would feel about that though.
 
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Sounds good, although the Tributary system should be available for Iberia too. A great part of the reasons why Granada survived for 250 years the rest of Al-Andalus is because they paid tributes to Castille. In 1066, at least Sevilla, Granada, Toledo and Zaragoza paid tributes to them.
This man is right haha. This is a great time to touch up the Taifas properly.
 
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I propose a new kind of tributary, the nominal vassal. This tributary provides zero taxes, but may call their liege to a defensive war, after which the vassal will be revassalized if there are no further defensive wars. If the liege refuses, the vassal gains full independence. The liege may also join wars of the nominal vassal to the same result.

The vassal may also be revassalized using the offer vassalization interaction with an increased acceptance. The liege may visit the vassal capital while traveling and doing so grants an event where the vassal can be revassalized. Nominal vassals may also be invited to activities, and doing so also revassalizes them.

Nominal vassals may also assert independence, which causes an opinion hit to the nominal liege and grants you legitimacy. This requires high legitimacy and costs prestige to do, but grants a big chunk of legitimacy. Doing so grants the nominal liege a casus belli to revassalize the nominal vassal for 5 years and no truce. Refusing to join a coronation also triggers independence and so does refusing revassalization.

Nominal vassals form upon exclave independence, but vassals may also slip away upon succession if they are outside of liege de jure, the authority law is at it's lowest level possible, the vassal has high legitimacy/governor efficiency and the new liege has low legitimacy.

The vassal will get an event where they may choose to become a nominal vassal if they desire independence. Doing so causes no penalties to their liege, but means they lose the perks of being a vassal. Remaining a part of the realm will grant the vassal a slight opinion modifier for their liege and some prestige and legitimacy/influence when appropriate.

AI should heavily weigh internal claims and their relation to the realm. Administrative vassals should be very reluctant to becoming nominal vassals as they lose their administrative government type if it is no longer valid. Essentially the independence faction weighing but slightly tweaked.

There are contract levels to nominal vassals in regards to tributary war support, forced, optional and none. The first one calls the nominal liege to all defensive wars, the second has it as an option and the third makes it no longer possible. Changing the obligation level costs prestige and requires high legitimacy when going further away from the liege, but costs legitimacy when going closer. The nominal liege doesn't need to approve of these changes and cannot change the contract.

As for historical nominal vassals, I think the biggest example is Venice and the Byzantine Empire. This would have no tributary war support. Sardinia would also fall under this and have optional war support. It could also apply to Kievan Rus in 1066, but doing so would mean that the optional war support should not result in automatic vassalization. The automatic vassalization would thus be restricted to forced war support, and this would also apply to activities and other interactions that would result in vassalization short of offering it.
 
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i dont like how the tributaries look like a realm under rebellion
Maybe dotted lines for internal border could look better.
Huh. So if the Plunder raid intent can steal innovations, does that mean tribal cultures can move past tribal era but still remain tribal?
That and confederations, it might be possible for "late game" tribal governments to actually thrive.
Makes me wonder if it is possible for small amount of tech progress could be gained from battles with armies using techs you don't have.
I am going to raise a red-flag here. This will *not* to be fun, from a 'how does it feel to be raided' perspective or from an player-AI balance perspective. - snip -
Just personally want to say, I do like the idea of things actually getting worse and destroyed, because that happened a lot in history and it is pretty hard for things to regress in the current systems in the game. The only regression is large countries breaking apart, but economically not so much changes when that happens.
If I may suggest, I think that if a nomad captures a non-steppe country certain buildings like farms or any sort of "agricultural" building should have its income cut by like 90% if held by a nomad government. Obviously if I am trampling the fields and farmlands for my herd, they should not also be getting me gold.
I haven't seen yet, but i hope we have a way to raze our holdings (over time, not instant destroy, like unbuilding basically) to make places good for the herd.
Perhaps tribal and nomadic rulers should have access to a very limited amount of vassals. Dukes could have 3, kings 5 and emperors 8. This may sound extremely harsh, but it is to underline the fact that these societies don't work well with feudal style vassalage and make tributaries more attractive. You could greatly raise the cap with tribal authority of course.
I think now that we are getting other kinds of diplomacy, vassal limit could across the board be turned down.
Given all of that is correct, then what's there to discourage players from focusing on gathering a ton of tributaries and keeping them under their thumb via war after each of their rulers dies?
I wish that the big thing about vassals was they are basically automatic allies and that you can call them to defensive wars. It makes no sense some random Viking comes and takes half of France because my Vassals just let themselves get conquered.
Will tributaries count towards your vassal limit? (In which case I suppose it'd become "subject limit") It'd be odd considering you're not actually governing them.
I think that it should. I represents your diplomatic infrastructure either way.
Thank you for acknowledging my concern.
These are all great ideas, even if in principle as I said above I like that raiding can be a threat to infrastructure.
 
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All the follow up stuff is very exciting.

This is shaping up well.

I hope that some time in the future the confederation mechanic might become useful for some kind of high king mechanic. I'd love to see the Irish and welsh have their own little ways of forming a defensive block.
 
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No it's not? Unless I misunderstood you, the first DD for the update mentions that the unplayable herder government will be a core part of the new nomadism mechanics.
Yes they are. In a sense that the devs had to make them because the game really, really dislikes when counties have no holders. They're essentially just a no mans land, except with a character attached.
Do you really want sapmi to have no army and be just a conquest-fodder? Do you? Same with 3.5 people who asked for welsh herders.
 
Thanks for your feedback! The name has already been changed to "Kara Khitai" on the current development branch actually (these screenshots are a few days old), reflecting the new dynastic identity of the refugees of Great Liao after the Jurchen Jin drove them south in 1125.

Regarding their government type, I agree that some administrative/nomadic fusion would be most appropriate, but the admin government type from Roads to Power isn't a great fit for them currently. With the China-specific additions coming later in All Under Heaven we might be able to create a better representation for them for this bookmark, but note that high Dominance nomadic gameplay is already quite different from low Dominance. For example, the Kara Khitai won't be migrating with the seasons even though nominally "nomadic". We'll talk more about this in upcoming dev diaries!

Gurkhan is a reserved game term in Khans of the Steppe, so to avoid confusion, the ruler of Kara Khitai has the Khagan title at game start - he could certainly claim the Gurkhan title during the game though!
Any chance of getting Khitan split into Mongolic Khitans and Sinicized Khitans? Right now the Khitans we have speak Mongolic but half of their name bank is Chinese. It feels weird, like Egyptian.
 
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All the follow up stuff is very exciting.

This is shaping up well.

I hope that some time in the future the confederation mechanic might become useful for some kind of high king mechanic. I'd love to see the Irish and welsh have their own little ways of forming a defensive block.
I imagine in the 867 startdate, Ivor the Boneless is going to push a lot of Irish tribes into a confederation anyway.

But there should be confederations and tributary relationships there already. Airgialla should be in a tributary relationship with Aed Findliath as its suzerain. One could change Aed from Duke of Meath to Duke of Ulster(more accurately 'The North' or 'In Tuaiscert' or 'In Fochla') in confederation with Flann Sinna as Petty King of Meath.

Similarly the Eoghanacht provinces of Munster should also be in a confederation, with Ormond as the leading member. A Dal gCais dynasty member should read be in Ennis and remain aloof from this arrangement.
 
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