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Dev Diary #172 - The Full Medieval World

Hello and welcome to this first development diary about the upcoming All Under Heaven DLC, and its associated update! I am Trin Tragula, one of the design leads on Crusader Kings III and today I get to talk about East Asia in the middle ages!

This diary is going to be a high level one, where we look at the vision for the entire expansion and all we aim to do in it. It will be followed by many more detailed diaries for the features and the individual regions of the expansion.

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[A first look at the world of Crusader Kings with everything between the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean. Like everything else in this diary the map is work in progress and subject to change; this includes coloring of the map itself, which is something we are experimenting a bit with right now. Don’t hesitate to tell us what you think of it!]

Apart from being Grand Strategy Games, the Paradox games have, for me personally, always also been a way to discover the entire world in a given time period, something that is both a game and a travel guide to the past. With this update, CK will finally get rid of the last artificial barriers to that kind of experience, as the map will no longer arbitrarily end in Burma and Tibet. This lets us shine a spotlight on some of the most interesting states of the time period, such as Tang and Song China, Heian Japan, Angkor, and many others.

With All Under Heaven, we want to not just add the missing parts of the map but also fill it with the living world of the past. The goal is that the new part of the map should feel like an integral part of the game. This means new governments with their own features, but it also means things like special buildings, new cultural traditions, and visual variety. East Asia will have its own look, with event illustrations, clothes, ethnicities, holdings, throne rooms, artifacts, and much more.

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As a final word of this introduction: this is also a work in progress. This is a vision and an overview of what we are making, but development is an iterative process and so this diary is also an opportunity for you to give your input on the things we are looking to add. More details are also forthcoming for each and every thing here in the coming diaries but there is nothing stopping you from telling us already if there are things you think we should include or change. This goes for art, features, and even the map itself.



China

A central focus of an East Asian expansion, by virtue of its sheer size as well as the reach and impact of its influence and culture, has to be China. While it was in a very different situation in 867, 1066 and 1178 respectively, China remains both a state that others emulated and a political constant in all of these dates.
We will talk a lot more about China and its features in future diaries, but here is a short overview of what we have planned and how we see its purpose.

Hegemony - A New Title Tier

Since China is a de jure realm that is more expansive than any one of the empires we currently have in the game, we are adding a new title tier for it - a Hegemony. In all our start dates, China is the only existing Hegemony, but others can be created using the decisions we have for uniting India or Rome. For now, there is no generic way to create these super-empires, and beyond China there are no de-jure ones. Instead, we reserve its use for special cases with bespoke rules and justifications.

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Celestial Government & Merit

China was a bureaucratic state, and though it differed a bit depending on era, positions in government as well as in provincial administration were largely given to career officials based on their perceived merit. Thousands would take the imperial examinations in order to start their career in public service, leading to possibly the most well-educated government apparatus in the world.

In All Under Heaven, the Hegemony of China has a special type of government called the Celestial Government. It builds on the Administrative Government introduced in Roads to Power for the Byzantine Empire. House heads and governors are playable, and can build up Influence and acquire positions, while families have a domicile representing their permanent powerbase that they can build up over time.
Where the Byzantine governors are solely appointed based on spending Influence however, the Chinese system relies more closely on Merit. Merit is a value that you build up during a lifetime in public service, through serving in important jobs and taking good decisions. Merit cannot be spent like a currency, instead it is how you are compared to other applicants for any position. A high merit score might mean you can become a circuit (kingdom) tier governor, or even a minister in the central government. Merit does not replace Influence since Influence can still be earned and spent for more underhanded uses, even in a Celestial realm.

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In order to ensure a healthy crop of potential administrators at all times, the Empire will regularly host examination activities where the applicants can earn a base merit score (or even a higher one) by demonstrating their skills at the Confucian classics, literary style, and essay writing.
The Emperor, on the other hand, can control what skills are prioritized in the examinations by controlling the curriculum when hosting Exams. Whatever qualities are emphasized will shape which characters are likely to be able to become governors in the future.

The Imperial Treasury

Governors in China will not support themselves using the money from the region they govern. Instead they will send the funds upwards, to the Emperor and his central treasury. The emperor then pays out a salary (gold) to the governor but also assigns funds to the respective treasury of all governorships in the realm.
Only gold can be spent on personal expenses, such as building up your family estate, paying for tutorship for your children, and so on. Treasury is what is used for any expenses related to governing. This includes things like building buildings, paying troops, or disaster relief.

Like with everything in this diary, there will be more information about the treasury, including details around how money can be put into or taken out of it by characters, in a future China-centric Developer Diary.

The Dynastic Cycle

Chinese history is traditionally ordered by the dynasty currently in power. This is a phenomenon that goes far back in time, where often a new dynasty would prioritize writing the history of their predecessors. They would use the imperial archives to chart out and describe how the old dynasty rose, how they ruled and how they eventually lost their way and succumbed to corruption (leaving an opening for the new dynasty to save the day and restore order and propriety).
In our timeline, the Tang, once a very successful and expansive dynasty that ruled a vast and prosperous realm, are already troubled by 867. About 40 years from this start date, their dynasty would break into a multi-factional civil war known as the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Era. Eventually the Song took power and built a new dynasty based even more strongly on the principles of bureaucracy and internal development.
The Song were eventually replaced by the Yuan dynasty of Kublai Khan, who ruled a China that was unmistakably Chinese, but also still very Mongol dominated. The Yuan and other foreign dynasties are often referred to as Conquest Dynasties due to their different nature (at least initially).


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In All Under Heaven, we have taken inspiration from how the Chinese described this at the time, a Dynastic Cycle where China can be in a stable era, essentially a type of golden age, where it can build its wealth and progress orienting themselves outwards (like the Tang), focusing on military expansion and a vast tributary network. Another focus can be advancing the core region, with great building projects, economic development, innovation and a strong bureaucracy (more like the Song or later Ming).
Common to both types of Stable eras (Expansion and Advancement) is that they can go on for a very long time. As long as the rulers put the right people in positions of government, protect their subjects from invasions and act swiftly against natural disasters, they are able to draw on the resources of China to perform great things. The eras come with different possibilities and rules for how to achieve these goals. In this way China’s neighbors will also know what to expect from the neighboring behemoth.

Common to both stable eras is that how Legitimacy is built and maintained relates to you moving in alignment with the era. If your dynasty has chosen an Expansion era then your Legitimacy will suffer if you fail to expand and will be even more damaged if outsiders take land or raid your lands.

With the ruling dynasty faltering, the cycle will eventually proceed to the Unstable Era. This is an era with its own rules and impact, just like the two stable variants, but here it is mainly to signify a period of change. Here people have begun to question the mandate of the rulers, and every action they take is under closer scrutiny. Natural disasters, wars, and other things will be viewed in a much more negative light, especially if the central government is unable to act quickly on them. Governors will be less selfless and may not take their responsibilities to the center as seriously, instead preparing for their own future.
Should the Emperor’s Legitimacy be impacted strongly enough, this era is very likely to slide into a Chaotic Era, where the ruling dynasty will fracture into a multi-factional civil war, much like what happened in the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Era.

Should the ruling dynasty, on the other hand, navigate the unstable era well enough and emerge on the other side, then they will once again enter a stable era and be able to choose between Advancement and Expansion once more. In the 867 bookmark the Tang starts in the unstable era.

In the Chaotic Era, the Hegemony of China title is suspended while the various empires, kingdoms and duchies in the Chinese realm are splintered into separate realms. These will quickly try to form their own dynasties, in conflict with each other. Once a winner emerges China will once again enter a stable phase, and the new ruling dynasty will be seen to have the Mandate of Heaven to rule the restored Hegemony of China. This will mean choosing a type of stable era as well as taking some other decisions about your long term goals (including what capital to use and the traditional name and color to associate with your dynasty).

There is much more to be said about the Dynastic Cycle, including how your bureaucrats coordinate to push for trying to change the current type of era, and how it deals with foreign conquest dynasties, but most of that will have to wait for a future diary of its own.

Tributaries and China

For the Chinese Empire, tributaries are not at all what they are to the rulers in the steppe. Independent rulers can choose to enter a relationship with China and be legitimized by trappings of authority from China. The tributary is not expected to play any part in China’s wars, and China will also not defend its tributaries as a general rule, it will however be less likely to be attacked directly.

Tributaries can attempt to create a closer relationship with their Suzerain Hegemon by going on Tributary missions to the Chinese court, bringing gifts, goods, eunuchs, and other things to please the Emperor. In return they may receive economic benefits, legitimizing artifacts or progress towards Chinese innovations.



Japan

One of the more unique regions of the medieval world is Japan. In our timeline (covering 867-1453 AD), Japan is originally a state that is largely inspired by the Chinese way of doing things, with governors who do not directly own land, and a vibrant capital in Kyoto. Noble families play a bigger part in ceremony, fine arts, and intrigue than they do in China, but military campaigns tend to be small and directed at the Ainu or Emishi in the eastern part of the island rather than other families in the realm.
Over time, some nobles manage to install themselves in hereditary fiefs, and the country starts undergoing a gradual militarization, culminating in the establishment of something much closer to the feudal realms of the west.

Soryō and Ritsuryō - Two Types of Vassals in One Realm

Unlike Administrative realms, where governorships are generally duchies, (and unlike China where they can be any tier) Japanese governorships are generally counties. This means power is a lot more fragmented than it is in other realms.

In 867 and 1066, the vast majority of counties are held by Ritsuryō rulers - a government very similar to Administrative - while by 1178 most of Japan is ruled by local Soryō lords - more akin to Feudal.

Ritsuryō rulers use Influence to secure appointments and generally don’t have strong armies (unless enabled by their House-related bonuses as described below).

Soryō vassals, on the other hand, have gained de facto control of a region from the central state and made it a permanent fief. Their succession is hereditary, their armies are stronger, and they can more easily expand militarily to control multiple counties. Soryō vassals can be useful to the empire in times of war, but generally they are a liability and a Ritsuryō that tries to turn their governorship into a Soryō fief will be considered a criminal.

House Relations & Blocs

The long-term relationships between different Houses are now tracked, and move along a sliding scale from great friendship to intense rivalry. Whenever a member of a House takes a significant friendly or hostile action against another House’s member, such as a marriage or a murder, the relation between the Houses will change to reflect the act.

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In Japan, houses can also form Blocs. These are groups of houses that all follow the head of one house, largely based on house relations. A bloc is a military alliance that is represented on the map, similar to steppe confederations, though with a clear leader and more far-reaching responsibilities. Bloc members will join the factions and wars of their leader (offensive as well as defensive). This means that when wars break out in Japan they are not as limited despite the fragmented political situation.

The Emperor and the Kampaku

In our era, the Japanese Emperors had varying degrees of power, but were generally relegated to a more ceremonial role than many of their foreign counterparts. The de facto ruler of Japan in all but name is usually the Kampaku, a Ritsuryō bureaucrat who rules on the Emperor’s behalf.

The succession of the Kampaku is determined in a similar way to the Byzantine Emperor’s acclamation, but with a different set of weights (favoring among other things marriage ties with the imperial family).
The Emperor, or Ten’nō, still has great ceremonial importance and is playable, but only directly rules his own family manor in all our start dates. Like many of the noble families in Japan, he resides in the imperial capital of Kyoto.

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Only Ritsuryō rulers may become Kampaku by appointment, but Soryō rulers can take the top job if they can build a powerful enough Faction, and thus establish themselves as a Shōgun (the Soryō equivalent of a Kampaku) by force. The Emperor themselves can also aspire to the top position and, if appointed as Kampaku, is given the option to abdicate the imperial throne and rule as a cloistered emperor, representing periods of strong royal influence.

Since the Kampaku, or Shōgun, essentially acts as the top liege in the Japanese realm, they wield an enormous amount of power, and will also make use of special Imperial Policy laws to control what can and cannot be done by vassals in the realm. Should a Shōgunate be established by a Soryō ruler this will start to usher in a societal change with more and more of the vassals in Japan forming Soryō fiefs.

Japanese Houses

With most vassals in Japan starting out holding just one county, there is a great need for other ways to build permanent power. The family manor, which is available to both Soryō and Ritsuryō rulers, is one way to build up durable power, and Japanese rulers will have many unique manor buildings for this purpose. Costs and benefits are both modified to better fit the needs and resources available in Japan. For the Soryō especially, this is how special men-at-arms are strengthened and unlocked.

Another way to build up the power of your house is to invest your prestige into House Aspirations. House aspirations have a theme and spending more prestige to upgrade them will unlock abilities and modifiers that will allow you to both specialize and grow the resources available to you. Aspirations will allow you to shape the strengths of your House by focusing on military might, intrigue, or economic development, and will also unlock certain upgrades for your family manor.



Southeast Asia

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Southeast Asia in this timeline is not yet as close to the Chinese sphere of influence as Japan or Korea. The mainland as well as the islands are a mix of indigenous faiths with tribal rulers and Indophile states practicing Hinduism or Buddhism. Unlike the bureaucratic nature of the realms to their north, the realms here are often more transitory in nature. Small central realms often control networks of tributaries that contract or grow with relatively little drama. The Great Empires of this region were often more advanced versions of this, with priests administering the realm on behalf of self proclaimed God Kings based in enormous temple cities.

Mandala Government

In All Under Heaven, Buddhist and Hindu states in southeast Asia will predominantly start with the new Mandala Government. This government form initially has a lower vassal and domain limit, and instead relies on its own flavor of tributaries in a greater way.

Mandala realms have the new Temple Citadel as their main holding type, though they can also hold castles and temples.

Devaraja - God Kings

An independent Mandala ruler is considered a God King, or Devaraja. Most of your authority and power will stem from piety and many things that would otherwise cost prestige or even gold will now consume piety.

To be a Devaraja means aspiring to be an ideal ruler in Buddhism or Hinduism, with your radiance attracting tributaries and vassals to your cause. The more convincing you are in this respect the more tributaries you will be able to steal from other rulers, and the more your power can grow.

Devarajas also have access to several new levels of devotion, with increasing benefits that will increase the initially restrictive domain and vassal limits of the government. By advancing your status as a God King, a Mandala can eventually end up quite powerful, even if the initial drawbacks in the form of lower vassal and domain limits might make the government seem weak at first glance.

Capital Temple​

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As a God King, the cult around your person is essentially the same thing as your authority as a ruler. To remind everyone of their power, rulers would construct great temple cities. Complexes such as Angkor Wat or Borobudur still stand today and demonstrated the divine power of rulers by showcasing their power and by providing a ceremonial center for the realms of the god kings.
Capital Temples make use of the new Great Project feature to let you, your vassals, and your tributaries invest in the growth of your Capital Temple.

While they are costly, Capital Temples are the first way in which you can alleviate the domain and vassal limit restrictions of your government type along with many other bonuses. A grand capital temple is also what will make tributaries remain with your heirs, who may not yet be as impressive in their role as divine rulers as you are.

Devaraja Aspects​

Similar to the Japanese House Aspirations, as a God King you will be able to invest piety into developing your personal cult. Focusing on warlike qualities will make it easier to gain piety through wars. Focusing on serenity might instead mean you can earn piety through more peaceful means, as an example. Your choice of Devaraja aspects will also decide what benefits you get from having high levels of devotion.



Additional Features in All Under Heaven

Great Projects

As mentioned above, another new feature to this update is Great Projects. This is a way for multiple rulers to pool their resources together to create something. Usually, this would be the vassals in a realm coming together to help fund something like the Great Wall, but it can also be local governors banding together to help push through disaster relief after a Natural Disaster. Benefits can be both direct, related to what the goal of the project itself is, and more individual, in terms of what the contributors get for helping.

A new type of building slot has also been introduced to allow Great Projects to create their own type of buildings that coexists with Special Buildings or Monuments. Not all Great Projects relate to a great building or monument however, though all will have tangible effects once they are completed.

There are a number of new Great Projects introduced in All Under Heaven. Like with all other features described today, we will talk more about what projects exist and about Great Projects as a feature in a future diary.

Natural Disasters

Natural Disasters are a type of recurring Situation that can strike in known areas. While the disaster impact is over relatively quickly, the Situation will linger and center on the rebuilding of the region after something like a great flood.

Every Natural disaster comes with a related Great Project, which means multiple characters in the same area can come together to fund the recovery effort. To this end, the projects also come with a number of optional investments that can potentially leverage the situation either for political benefits or lead to rebuilding the area to be more prosperous than it was prior to the disaster. Our intent here is not that natural disasters be a random and extremely punishing blow to your game but rather something to overcome that can present you with opportunities to demonstrate your skills as a ruler and use it as a possibility to ultimately advance your goals.

The Silk Road

While China was enormously important in East Asia and its surroundings, for many parts of the world China’s impact was more indirect. We wanted to take the opportunity to include this in the expansion, since it was still quite tangible.

For millennia, goods and innovations have flowed from China towards the west. Trade is not a feature of All Under Heaven, but the Silk Road will be visible on the map and controlling its entrepots will yield economic benefits if China is in an era where it is stable. Another venue that will be open to western rulers is that travelers to the entrepots of the Silk Road may help spread Chinese innovations to their home realms.

What About the Other Parts of the Map?

This diary tries to give an overview of all major features for the expansion, but it also leaves a lot unsaid for future diaries. In the coming weeks, we will be giving a closer overview of not only the features already described but also things not mentioned, such as Korea, the northern steppe, the tribal states in southeast Asia, and, of course, the map itself. Next week’s diary will start out by giving an overview of the new map, which will then be followed by more detailed breakdowns as we go through the features for each area.
 
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I imagine it is to allow for the locations to be held by non-Mandela governments. If the capital for a county is a temple for all regions that start as Mandela, then it could create some weirdness or unintuitive gameplay when a a nearby feudal or administrative state conquers the county and then has to immediately hand it over to a religious vassal in order for it to function. If Temple-Castles can be held by anyone that can hold Temples or Castles then the gameplay will be a lot less intrusive.
Hasn't one of the recent patches make possible to change the de-jure capital holding? In that case conquering a temple-ruled county wouldn't necessitate giving it to a theocratic vassal, just to switch the capital holding of the county to a castle barony (or to build a castle first if the county lacks it)
 
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Toyotomi Hideyoshi was an idiosyncratic man who had the power to shape things how he wanted in ways that were unthinkable before and afterwards. Among other ideas, he was planning to have the current emperor installed as emperor of China and then put someone else in as emperor of Japan.

But, in the 12th century when the Shogun title was adopted for the military ruler, the social status of Minamoto no Yoritomo was a consideration for which official ranks and titles he would request and receive. And then later when the Hojo clan usurped the actual power of the shoguns, they considered their official status to be even lesser and contented themselves with a rather low official ranking, all while exerting great power.
Sure, I will trust you on this. That said: I don't think that 'shogun title makes no sense for emperor, but kampaku does' would be a great argument against "Shogun-Emperor" (I mean: the emperor that functions like hereditary top liege like CK3 Shogun will). I don’t think cloistered rule system had influential emperor take on titles like insei, so I fully expect cloistered emperor ruler not to be called kampaku. I also would expect the reigning emperor with stronger power to use differently localized title (most probably just his imperial title).
 
Hasn't one of the recent patches make possible to change the de-jure capital holding? In that case conquering a temple-ruled county wouldn't necessitate giving it to a theocratic vassal, just to switch the capital holding of the county to a castle barony (or to build a castle first if the county lacks it)
You can change the capital barony, but you have to own both the capital barony and the castle barony. So you will have to kick out whoever currently owns the castle, then change the capital, then hand out the temple. And all of that to get the same benefits that you get without any of those steps by conquering a county with a castle capital.

You mention building a castle if the county doesn't have a castle, but that means you can't gain the full benefits from directly controlling the county for 5 years (assuming no modifiers). And that also assumes that the culture of the county has the Mottes innovation. If it doesn't then you are looking at either waiting for the culture to develop the innovation or to focus on changing the county's culture. So that could easily be 10+ years till you can gain the full benefits from directly controlling it. And I doubt the AI is not going to be able to handle the culture conversion path meaning a feudal AI character could easily be tripped up by conquering one of these hypothetical counties.

So yeah, while there are ways to handle temple capitals, temple-castles just reduce a lot of friction that would likely come from temple capitals.
 
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You can change the capital barony, but you have to own both the capital barony and the castle barony. So you will have to kick out whoever currently owns the castle, then change the capital, then hand out the temple. And all of that to get the same benefits that you get without any of those steps by conquering a county with a castle capital.

You mention building a castle if the county doesn't have a castle, but that means you can't gain the full benefits from directly controlling the county for 5 years (assuming no modifiers). And that also assumes that the culture of the county has the Mottes innovation. If it doesn't then you are looking at either waiting for the culture to develop the innovation or to focus on changing the county's culture. So that could easily be 10+ years till you can gain the full benefits from directly controlling it. And I doubt the AI is not going to be able to handle the culture conversion path meaning a feudal AI character could easily be tripped up by conquering one of these hypothetical counties.

So yeah, while there are ways to handle temple capitals, temple-castles just reduce a lot of friction that would likely come from temple capitals.
I mean, up until now we don't really know if other governments can hold temple-citadels... (My guess is that they cannot, and have to pay to convert it to normal holding.)
 
Can we get an option for dynasty realms to be called Dynasty [Tier flavorization] if they’re big enough on the map? Kinda like how nomads are The [plural form of culture group with maybe their location] Like in a game rule or in the options menu. For example instead of Song it would be Song Empire instead of Abbasid it would be Abbasid Caliphate. I know there are some decisions for this sorta thing but I think dynamically would be good.
 
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While I quite like how the Mandala Governments looks, I would say that instead of piety there should be another currency ( don't know what else to call it ) called Dharma. For the Hindu, Jain and Buddhist rulers of India and SEA, dharma was a much more important than what piety quantifies in game. Piety is simply a matter of how pious and devoted you are to a particular faith or religion and fits the western and islamic notion more. In the dharmic religions, being a just ruler is more important than going on a pilgrimage for example.
Dharma should not be spendable like influence, instead you should acquire or lose it during your lifetime based on your actions and it this that endears people to join you. Even the Devarajas were called so because they were seen as manifestations of gods on earth due to qualities they possessed or actions they took during their lifetime. That should be the only way to increase dharma I feel, no dynastic legacies, probably no modifiers as well, but your level of piety and temple construction should influence the amount of dharma you could generate since rituals were a big part of it.
Dharmic rulers who led a good life and were just rulers should be able to get more tributaries and not pious Kings since piety can be farmed, especially with the multitude of temples and artifacts that generate it and simply give you a flat bonus.
As an example, a zealous but sadistic and vengeful king would not acquire as much dharma but could acquire a lot a piety since sadistic and vengeful are not really sins in game for Hindu rulers and have no drawbacks. This could also be tied into stress where a player either has to go against his own characteristics and desires to acquire dharma potentially gaining stress if they are a sadistic ruler.
Lastly, dharma should not scale like prestige or piety. What I mean by that is that there should not be different levels that you progress through, instead it should be a scale, of sorts, where one end is adharmic and the other is dharmic and ruler should flit between them based on their actions, making each decision they take an important one where a wrong misstep could lead you to adharma but you could course correct it.
 
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While I quite like how the Mandala Governments looks, I would say that instead of piety there should be another currency ( don't know what else to call it ) called Dharma. For the Hindu, Jain and Buddhist rulers of India and SEA, dharma was a much more important than what piety quantifies in game. Piety is simply a matter of how pious and devoted you are to a particular faith or religion and fits the western and islamic notion more. In the dharmic religions, being a just ruler is more important than going on a pilgrimage for example.
Dharma should not be spendable like influence, instead you should acquire or lose it during your lifetime based on your actions and it this that endears people to join you. Even the Devarajas were called so because they were seen as manifestations of gods on earth due to qualities they possessed or actions they took during their lifetime. That should be the only way to increase dharma I feel, no dynastic legacies, probably no modifiers as well, but your level of piety and temple construction should influence the amount of dharma you could generate since rituals were a big part of it.
Dharmic rulers who led a good life and were just rulers should be able to get more tributaries and not pious Kings since piety can be farmed, especially with the multitude of temples and artifacts that generate it and simply give you a flat bonus.
As an example, a zealous but sadistic and vengeful king would not acquire as much dharma but could acquire a lot a piety since sadistic and vengeful are not really sins in game for Hindu rulers and have no drawbacks. This could also be tied into stress where a player either has to go against his own characteristics and desires to acquire dharma potentially gaining stress if they are a sadistic ruler.
Lastly, dharma should not scale like prestige or piety. What I mean by that is that there should not be different levels that you progress through, instead it should be a scale, of sorts, where one end is adharmic and the other is dharmic and ruler should flit between them based on their actions, making each decision they take an important one where a wrong misstep could lead you to adharma but you could course correct it.
This is a game and piety as a score and a currency are abstractions that are flexible enough to cover Dharmic religions. I say this as a fan of SEA history and a follower of a Dharmic faith. Rulers in Southeast Asia took on public displays of religious devotion like temple construction and dedication of lands for temple support much like in the West. In both spaces, public spectacles of devotion could outshine any blights in the ruler's personal conduct. In Buddhism at least, pilgrimage as religious activity dates from the early centuries of the religion too.
In-game piety and levels of devotion even work together to make piety more than just a currency you spend and deplete. And certain actions that are religiously inexcusable can drop you down a level of devotion. I think the game has things here covered reasonably well.
 
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And what are you trying to claim? That five times more trade went by sea? Twice as much? A million times more? I've already explained why I'm writing this - I want a fair evaluation of trade nodes. So that trade between China and India doesn't lead to an overvaluation of the trade node in Aden or Hormuz.
I don't really care about the numeric value, that's a decision for the devs but yes Aden and Hormuz should be significantly more valuable trade nodes than most locations on the land route, as they were irl. There was no period after the development of the Indian Ocean trade network where trade flows overland exceeded trade flows over the sea. And trade didn't stop in India. Indian cloth, steel, gems etc. flowed up the Persian Gulf and Red Sea in amounts significantly exceeding the overland routes to Khorasan and Egyptian, Middle Eastern, and European goods flowed back on the same paths

Even if we just consider silk, more of it travelled by sea than by land
 
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This is a game and piety as a score and a currency are abstractions that are flexible enough to cover Dharmic religions. I say this as a fan of SEA history and a follower of a Dharmic faith. Rulers in Southeast Asia took on public displays of religious devotion like temple construction and dedication of lands for temple support much like in the West. In both spaces, public spectacles of devotion could outshine any blights in the ruler's personal conduct. In Buddhism at least, pilgrimage as religious activity dates from the early centuries of the religion too.
In-game piety and levels of devotion even work together to make piety more than just a currency you spend and deplete. And certain actions that are religiously inexcusable can drop you down a level of devotion. I think the game has things here covered reasonably well.
I agree with most of what you have said. Religious devotion is a big part of leading a dharmic life, I know it because I myself am a Hindu Brahmin, but at the same time a rulers conduct also influences your Dharma a lot more. Building temples and dedication of lands for temples is very important till this date, but being a sadistic person and committing such acts also influences it a lot more. My main problem would be what action is considered religiously inexcusable in the game so that it makes me a sinner. Right now I could torture a person and I'll incur some tyranny and negative opinion from close family and other people if I play a Hindu ruler, but it would not drop me down a level of devotion as it is not sinful to my faith.
My idea with dharma lands less on concepts like piety in which you progress through different stages and you might drop down a level of devotion if you do something sinful, and more a check and balance system that is scaled. You start in the middle and you either go towards being adharmic or dharmic which in turn becomes an opinion modifier for other rulers and the populace around you.
For example you tortured somebody, but then you repented for it by going on a pilgrimage or by doing an act of goodness like donation. Similarly your level of devotion will earn you more dharma showcasing how public spectacles do outshine personal conduct as you aptly said.
 
While I quite like how the Mandala Governments looks, I would say that instead of piety there should be another currency ( don't know what else to call it ) called Dharma. For the Hindu, Jain and Buddhist rulers of India and SEA, dharma was a much more important than what piety quantifies in game. Piety is simply a matter of how pious and devoted you are to a particular faith or religion and fits the western and islamic notion more. In the dharmic religions, being a just ruler is more important than going on a pilgrimage for example.
Dharma should not be spendable like influence, instead you should acquire or lose it during your lifetime based on your actions and it this that endears people to join you. Even the Devarajas were called so because they were seen as manifestations of gods on earth due to qualities they possessed or actions they took during their lifetime. That should be the only way to increase dharma I feel, no dynastic legacies, probably no modifiers as well, but your level of piety and temple construction should influence the amount of dharma you could generate since rituals were a big part of it.
Dharmic rulers who led a good life and were just rulers should be able to get more tributaries and not pious Kings since piety can be farmed, especially with the multitude of temples and artifacts that generate it and simply give you a flat bonus.
As an example, a zealous but sadistic and vengeful king would not acquire as much dharma but could acquire a lot a piety since sadistic and vengeful are not really sins in game for Hindu rulers and have no drawbacks. This could also be tied into stress where a player either has to go against his own characteristics and desires to acquire dharma potentially gaining stress if they are a sadistic ruler.
Lastly, dharma should not scale like prestige or piety. What I mean by that is that there should not be different levels that you progress through, instead it should be a scale, of sorts, where one end is adharmic and the other is dharmic and ruler should flit between them based on their actions, making each decision they take an important one where a wrong misstep could lead you to adharma but you could course correct it.
That is not what dharma is. Dharma is a duty slash law slash religious obligations that one has, and while one can fulfill their dharma, one does not accumulate it. It is from root dhr- ‘to carry’: the implication being that fulfilling this specific duty is the thing that carries the weight of the world so it does not fall.

If anything, karma (or karmaphalam, the fruit of your action) would be the thing that is accumulated. Then of course there is a problem that Hinduism very often treats karma (both positive and negative) as a thing that binds you to the temporal world, and e.g. karma yoga of Bhagavadgita fame is all about attempting to stop accumulating it. so… I don’t think it completely fits either.

That said, the terminology aside, what would this special currency bring to the game?, because at most I see a problem with weightings of actions that contribute to Piety (and Level of Devotion that is not spent); I agree that game could model Dharmic religions better (like e.g. generosity is not nearly as pronounced as it should be), but I fail to see how a new currency would improve the situation.
 
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Given that Tang and Song have different map colours, I am curious what determines the map colour of the imperial dynasty with the mandate/hegemony title (or I suppose for that matter it's name too).

I will also agree with others who have said the a Caliphate makes sense as a potential formable hegemony for that reason, though obviously they shouldn't be everywhere just for the sake of it (I already don't care too much for many of the de jure empires that exist to fill out the entire map)
 
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Given that Tang and Song have different map colours, I am curious what determines the map colour of the imperial dynasty with the mandate/hegemony title (or I suppose for that matter it's name too).
The colour is determined by the elemental association chosen for the dynasty. The name - as far as Dev Diary tells - will be for players / AI to choose. I imagine that they may be some railroading for AI (e.g. Mongols creating Chinese dynasty may result in Yuan associated with gold / yellow), but otherwise I think that aside from the historical names we may see some nice words that could have been used for dynasty names.
 
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Honestly so much cool things to test myself in, so much things i want to see in other places like semi administrative semi feodal governments in central europe. Or more complex tributaries system for administrative govs like byzantium to make neighbours become vassals if its possible step by step.

And some my "i want it" things

As a player i always lost interest in game when you can just drop another money bag at every problematic guy. And playing as big emperor always end up blobing almost without any stopping power.
You can control any vassal or domain as effective as you were king with compact little kingdom or not. And what about situations when your capital in one part of the world and your vassal in the opposite? The same.
As emperor if you go to war you will conquere neighbors but most of the time you have no motivation to save conquered cultures.
Its more interesting for me to make a hard choice: on one hand your empire - more culturally solid(powerfull councillors of my own culture and etc) and take penalties if i ruin the cultural unity of the elites; on other hand to appoint new vassal for good profit but he has different culture. Eventually it may lead to more and more "barbarians" at your court as governors or councillors what may cause more problems(for example in chaotic era) ->eventually you want to make them hybridize with you(never seen at least once AI to do it in your empire) to make penalties less.

When ck3 has one conflict of interests after another its much more interesting for me to watch what is going to be next.

Sry for bad english if it was so
 
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Given that Tang and Song have different map colours, I am curious what determines the map colour of the imperial dynasty with the mandate/hegemony title (or I suppose for that matter it's name too).

I will also agree with others who have said the a Caliphate makes sense as a potential formable hegemony for that reason, though obviously they shouldn't be everywhere just for the sake of it (I already don't care too much for many of the de jure empires that exist to fill out the entire map)


The colour is determined by the elemental association chosen for the dynasty. The name - as far as Dev Diary tells - will be for players / AI to choose. I imagine that they may be some railroading for AI (e.g. Mongols creating Chinese dynasty may result in Yuan associated with gold / yellow), but otherwise I think that aside from the historical names we may see some nice words that could have been used for dynasty names.

I think ( but not sure if the game will implement it mechanically) is how each dynasty might see who they think was the legit prior dynasties they claim to be succeeding and which dynasties they claim to reject. If China falls apart after the Tang start date, when China have split into different dynasties and empires, the one that eventually turn China back into a hegemony can say which is the many different split dynasties are the legitimate regime vs which are the ones they rejected.
 
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I think ( but not sure if the game will implement it mechanically) is how each dynasty might see who they think was the legit prior dynasties they claim to be succeeding and which dynasties they claim to reject. If China falls apart after the Tang start date, when China have split into different dynasties and empires, the one that eventually turn China back into a hegemony can say which is the many different split dynasties are the legitimate regime vs which are the ones they rejected.
I think it would make sense for the player (and somehow the AI if possible) to decide which turns of the cycle count (I recall when reading about the Three Kingdoms this happened for the different kingdoms), but yeah the colour being based on element make sense.

As for the name, I do recall many dynasty names were determined by either a geographic area or title (e.g the founder of the Tang had the title of Duke of Tang) so I can see that playing a role for the AI as well or at least that would make the most sense.
 
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I kind of hope that Chapter V is like Chapter IV for the West. The West feels under flavored compared to the steppes or the East.
 
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I kind of hope that Chapter V is like Chapter IV for the West. The West feels under flavored compared to the steppes or the East.

It seems there will at least be a new focus on trade, and possibly Republic. This means Italy might get a lot of new attention, and this might also mean some sort of possible mechanic for the papacy? It also depends if they want to extend Chapter 5 focus to the HRE and France.
 
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That is not what dharma is. Dharma is a duty slash law slash religious obligations that one has, and while one can fulfill their dharma, one does not accumulate it. It is from root dhr- ‘to carry’: the implication being that fulfilling this specific duty is the thing that carries the weight of the world so it does not fall.

If anything, karma (or karmaphalam, the fruit of your action) would be the thing that is accumulated. Then of course there is a problem that Hinduism very often treats karma (both positive and negative) as a thing that binds you to the temporal world, and e.g. karma yoga of Bhagavadgita fame is all about attempting to stop accumulating it. so… I don’t think it completely fits either.

That said, the terminology aside, what would this special currency bring to the game?, because at most I see a problem with weightings of actions that contribute to Piety (and Level of Devotion that is not spent); I agree that game could model Dharmic religions better (like e.g. generosity is not nearly as pronounced as it should be), but I fail to see how a new currency would improve the situation.
Exactly. My phrasing of the earlier comment might not have been good, but I don't want dharma to be something that is accumulated overtime. Rather I want it to be a scale where being adharmic is on one side and being dharmic is on one side and a ruler would flit between these two sides, sometimes positive or sometimes negative or maybe a lot more positive or a lot more negative. This way you would never accumulate dharma overtime and level it up like you do with piety instead you would gain with one action and maybe lose it with another. This would create and interesting system of check and balance where the player would have to choose between a decision that maybe is dharmic but against his personality. If he takes it, then he will become more dharmic in the eyes of the populace but at the same time he would gain an increase in stress.
How this could be modeled into the game is particularly for the mandala government. Right now they plan to implement piety as a way one can get tributaries, instead it should be modeled on the this scale of dharma and adharma, where the first ruler being dharmic means a stable realm and a second ruler being adharmic might lose the realm his forefathers have created.
 
It seems there will at least be a new focus on trade, and possibly Republic. This means Italy might get a lot of new attention, and this might also mean some sort of possible mechanic for the papacy? It also depends if they want to extend Chapter 5 focus to the HRE and France.
An Italy France HRE Dlc would be awesome. I would add that Britain and Christian Iberia could do with some flavor (current flavor could be MUCH improved, same with Scandinavia)
 
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